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Logging PIC Time - Employers Rule?


Whiteshadow

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If the law is so very clear, (along with case specific interpretations from the Cheif counsel) then why won't you humour me and answer the two multiple choice questions.

 

 

1). Precisely because the regulation is quite clear.

2). You're asking about Transport Canada. I don't do Canada.

3). My comments regard FAA regulation. TC rules, regulations, policies and practices are irrelevant.

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Air time...flight time...PIC time...solo time...pilot time...who cares anymore! All I care about is how the FAA would allow someone with 47 engine failures to keep their A&P and pilot cert????

 

Don't be a f*cking idiot.

 

The FAA has never questioned the engine failures I've experienced, for good reason. You needn't apologize for your lack of experience.

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1). Precisely because the regulation is quite clear.

2). You're asking about Transport Canada. I don't do Canada.

3). My comments regard FAA regulation. TC rules, regulations, policies and practices are irrelevant.

Oh pardon me. You are absolutely right.

 

In Canada Air Time is the equivalent of your "Time in service," as defined in section 1.1 Title 14 of FAA regs. "Flight Time" is also defined in the same section.

 

So just switch out "Air Time" with "Tine in Service" and the question works for FAA regs I think.

 

You guys seem to be s little testy, but I'm simply looking for your opinions as pilots, under the US regs, how you would log these 2 flights. Pretty simple request

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Guest pokey

 

Don't be a f*cking idiot.

 

The FAA has never questioned the engine failures I've experienced, for good reason. You needn't apologize for your lack of experience.

 

Guess he told you, eh?

wonder what this 'good reason' is? I'v never had an engine failure myself (yet), but the ones that i have known about? the FAA wants to know what when wrong (especially if substantial damage to a/c, persons, property,,,,,)

 

 

You guys seem to be s little testy, but I'm simply looking for your opinions as pilots, under the US regs, how you would log these 2 flights. Pretty simple request

 

"you guys" ? hold on they're babalouie ! don't count the rest of us in with the likes of the bug, please.

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...I'm simply looking for your opinions as pilots, under the US regs, how you would log these 2 flights. Pretty simple request

Well I'm bored shitless at the moment (plus I got free fries yesterday and because those loveable bastards won again, I get free fries today too, so I'm in a pretty good mood) so I'll bite.

 

Now I am just a recreational robby dude, but I do have a whopping ten hours in a 206, plus they were in the commercial world, (albiet pay to play) so lets see?

 

I log off the hobbs, if for any other reason, because I'm just too lazy to buy a timer. Now as I recall the hobbs on the 206 I flew worked off the collective (there may have been another hobbs that worked off the engine (in the nose maybe? I don't remember) but the only one I saw was a collective one, so here's how I'd log your flights...

 

 

Engine Start Time/Blades turning: 754

 

Time Up Time Dn Air Time Starts Comments

800 804 4 min 1 CYMO Lagoon

809 812 3 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

816 819 3 min 0 CYMO Lagoon

822 825 3 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

829 833 4 min 0 CYMO Lagoon

838 841 3 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

844 847 3 min 0 CYMO Lagoon

850 853 3 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

855 858 3 min 0 CYMO Lagoon

904 909 5 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

 

Engine Shutdown @ 912; Rotors Stopped @ 914

CYMO - Lagoon - CYMO (10 trips) (1 startup) 10 landings 0.6 PIC/Total

 

If these flights were in a 22 I'd log 1.3 PIC/Total (until the new collective hobbs are installed that is),...like I said, I'm lazy!

 

There's also no specific colum in my book for "air time" or "flight time",its just PIC and Total plus the usual breakdowns.

 

I don't really get where you were going with all the rest, but that's how I'd log this one.

 

,...not that any job interviewer, DPE, or FAA official has ever asked, 'cause if they don't care about CFI's logging "instruction given" while holding a camera in their hands taking pictures, or while texting their girlfriends on pay to ferry flights (while the desperate lowtimer payee does all the work) they certainly don't care about this sh*t either!

 

,...and if you do come over here sometimes SWOLL BRO? I DO LIFT BRO,...I DO LIFT!

 

,...just not a lot, 'cause muscles are heavy and I fly a 22! :D

Edited by r22butters
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Write lift time down, stow paper, collective up.

Collective down, aircraft secure post-landing, write time down.

The difference is loggable pilot experience time.

Taxi time is flight time.

 

Worked for 48 years.

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Thanks for taking part Bro. FYI it was multiple choice, not essay lol

No mention of which answer you choose or "Tine in Service". You do log that in the Aircraft logbook I assume?

 

Would your aircraft "time in service" equal your Flight Time (or PIC time) in all these cases you discuss?

 

I assume you received some dual instruction time while training but I'm not too concerned about arguing what is PIC time, so let's just call it all PIC time if you insist.

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My bad. I meant to quote you bro.

Well I'm bored shitless at the moment (plus I got free fries yesterday and because those loveable bastards won again, I get free fries today too, so I'm in a pretty good mood) so I'll bite.

 

Now I am just a recreational robby dude, but I do have a whopping ten hours in a 206, plus they were in the commercial world, (albiet pay to play) so lets see?

 

I log off the hobbs, if for any other reason, because I'm just too lazy to buy a timer. Now as I recall the hobbs on the 206 I flew worked off the collective (there may have been another hobbs that worked off the engine (in the nose maybe? I don't remember) but the only one I saw was a collective one, so here's how I'd log your flights...

 

 

CYMO - Lagoon - CYMO (10 trips) (1 startup) 10 landings 0.6 PIC/Total

 

If these flights were in a 22 I'd log 1.3 PIC/Total (until the new collective hobbs are installed that is),...like I said, I'm lazy!

 

There's also no specific colum in my book for "air time" or "flight time",its just PIC and Total plus the usual breakdowns.

 

I don't really get where you were going with all the rest, but that's how I'd log this one.

 

,...not that any job interviewer, DPE, or FAA official has ever asked, 'cause if they don't care about CFI's logging "instruction given" while holding a camera in their hands taking pictures, or while texting their girlfriends on pay to ferry flights (while the desperate lowtimer payee does all the work) they certainly don't care about this sh*t either!

 

,...and if you do come over here sometimes SWOLL BRO? I DO LIFT BRO,...I DO LIFT!

 

,...just not a lot, 'cause muscles are heavy and I fly a 22! :D

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Thanks for taking part Bro. FYI it was multiple choice, not essay lol

No mention of which answer you choose or "Tine in Service". You do log that in the Aircraft logbook I assume?

Would your aircraft "time in service" equal your Flight Time (or PIC time) in all these cases you discuss?

I assume you received some dual instruction time while training but I'm not too concerned about arguing what is PIC time, so let's just call it all PIC time if you insist.

I think I get it now?

 

I don't know about the career pilots here, but as a recreational renter I don't make entries into an aircraft's logbook, only my personal one.

 

If I had a job where I had to account for engine run time in between start-ups, as well as skids up to skids down time in a company's aircraft logbook, then I would probably pick skids up to skids down to put in my personal book,...after all if I have a job flying a 206, then I'm not going to be so hungry for hours anymore!

 

So then in your terms (if it REALLY mattered to me) my personal logbook for a job flying a 206 would show just "air time" if the company's book showed "flight time", then our books would not be equal!

 

Incidentally since I do log off the hobbs, my...

R22 time is engine on to engine off

R44 time (except for first 30hrs) skids up to skids down

206 time skids up to skids down

S300/MD500/Enstrom time - I have no idea

 

,...and the couple flights I did in an S-55 were timed on how long the guy sitting next to me could hold his pee!

 

This probably doesn't help you though,...sorry. :(

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Still no answer.

Typical helicopter pilot forum lol.no offence...i'm one too but.... A bunch of people who like to run off at the mouth and hear themselves talk but deflect and avoid when asked a direct question....

The answer has been given you. That you fail to understand it doesnt change the fact.

 

It appears that you only wish to hear that which you wish to hear.

 

None of my reply dealt in theoreticals; strictly truth and fact. That may the source of your difficulty in understanding.

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So let's see how much variation in interpretation there really is...

Several very basic questions have been distributed to industry stakeholders (within Canada and internationally). They've also been posted in the Canadian Forum. Why not give them a try for shits and giggles.

Here's the first 2:

Q1. A pilot flies a Bell 206 Jet Ranger on skids between CYMO (Moosonee Airport) and the Lagoon Heliport (Moose Factory Island) and makes the following entries in his pilot flight log.

Time up is the moment his skids leave the earths surface and Time down is the moment his skids make contact with the earths surface at the next landing.

Engine Start Time/Blades turning: 754

Time Up Time Dn Air Time Starts Comments

800 804 4 min 1 CYMO Lagoon

809 812 3 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

816 819 3 min 0 CYMO Lagoon

822 825 3 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

829 833 4 min 0 CYMO Lagoon

838 841 3 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

844 847 3 min 0 CYMO Lagoon

850 853 3 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

855 858 3 min 0 CYMO Lagoon

904 909 5 min 0 Lagoon CYMO

Engine Shutdown @ 912; Rotors Stopped @ 914

A1. For the above entries: The pilots calculated Flight Time and Air Time respectively, should be:

a. Flight Time = 1.3 / Air Time = 0.6

b. Flight Time = 0.6 / Air Time = 0.6

c. Flight Time = 1.2/ Air Time = 0.6

d. Flight Time = 1.3 / Air Time = 1.3

e. Flight Time = 1.3/ Air Time 1.0

f. Flight Time = 1.2 / Air Time = 1.2

g. Flight Time = 1.2/ Air Time 1.0

h. Flight Time = 0.7/ Air Time = 0.6

i. Other: Flight Time = / Air Time =

 

Your format is a bit confusing, but if "a" through "i" are answer choices, I'd pick "a" if I lived in Canada, because our logbooks down here don't look like these.

 

Q2. A pilot flies a Bell 206 Jet Ranger on skids from CYCN to CYTS with no landings enroute. He makes 1 landing at his destination and shuts down the helicopter.

He makes the following entries in his pilot flight log.

Time up is the moment his skids leave the earths surface and Time down is the moment his skids make contact with the earths surface at the next landing.

 

Engine Start Time/Blades turning: 754

 

Time Up Time Dn Air Time Starts Comments

800 824 24 min 1 CYCN CYTS

 

Engine Shut Down @ 830; Rotors stopped @ 831

 

A2. For the above entries: The pilots calculated Flight Time and Air Time respectively, should be:

 

a) Flight Time = 0.4 / Air Time = 0.4

B) Flight Time = 0.6/Air Time = 0.4

c) Flight Time = 0.5 / Air Time = 0.4

d) Flight Time = 0.4 / Air Time = 0.3

e) Other: Flight Time = Air Time =

 

For this one I'd pick "b".

Edited by r22butters
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When does your employer allow you to log PIC time?

 

I want to know if your employer monitors what you are logging and if so, what do they allow you to log as PIC time?

 

Getting back to the original posters question, your employer isn’t concerned with how you log PIC time in your personal logbook. If your employer had any real issues with your logbook or the way you log, he wouldn’t have hired you in the first place.

 

He’s not really concerned with the .2 or .3 additional you may have logged. Your employer is most concerned with the aircraft’s time in service. He’s at the other end of the spectrum. The owner wants to make sure that extra .2 or .3 doesn’t make its way into the maintenance log. That extra time in service cuts into the owner’s bottom line $. So, as most owners see it, if the customer sometimes pays for an extra .2 or .3 and/or the pilot logs a little more PIC time, so be it, that’s the way of the industry.

 

Owners base their operating cost on time in service. Furthermore, if they bill from a customer’s meter (i.e. engine on - engine off), that .2 or .3 is just extra icing on the cake for the owner that customer/student pay for and the pilot/flight instructor benefits from.

 

§ 1.1 Time in service means:

 

with respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing.

 

§ 1.1 Flight time means:

 

Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing…

 

 

“Existing regulations, specifically 14 C.F.R. § 91A17( a )(2)(i), require each owner or operator to keep records containing the total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor. This is accomplished by the owner or operator recording and tracking in some form and manner the time in service of the airframe, engines(s), propeller(s), and rotor(s) from the moment the aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing, as referenced in 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. In addition, § 91.417( a )(2)(ii), and similar provisions in 14 C.F.R. §§ 121.380( a )(2)(iii) and 135.439( a )(2)(ii), require owners or operators (certificate holders) to keep records that show the current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.” - Office of the Chief Counsel, Jul 8, 2009

Edited by iChris
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Employers have run into difficulty when applicants arrived for practical tests with time in their logbook that they ought not have. The private pilot, for example, riding with his buddy that does night freight. Private pilot logs it, illegally in a 135 operation, causing trouble for the pilot flying for the 135 operation, the private pilot, and the certificate holder.

 

A pilot logs time beyond the scope of the regulation, with respect to 14 CFR 61.51. The enployer makes max utilization of the pilot. The pilot makes a legal statement log entry in his personal logbook) regarding his flight time. The logbook either becomes the limiting factor for how much the pilot can fly, or incriminating evidence against the employer and employee.

 

It's more than just maintenance tracking. In fact, that's a very different subject.

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Fly it? Log it. Simple.No adjustments, no rule of thumb, easy and verifiable.

 

It has nothing to do engine Hobbs time, air frame Hobbs time, or Old McDonald's farm, E-I-E-I-O.

 

Whatever else the pilot is required to record, record. Flight time is flight time:

§ 1.1 Flight time means:

Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing…

Nothing about rotors turning, pilot responsibility- if you fly it, you log it.

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Employers have run into difficulty when applicants arrived for practical tests with time in their logbook that they ought not have. The private pilot, for example, riding with his buddy that does night freight. Private pilot logs it, illegally in a 135 operation, causing trouble for the pilot flying for the 135 operation, the private pilot, and the certificate holder.

 

A pilot logs time beyond the scope of the regulation, with respect to 14 CFR 61.51. The enployer makes max utilization of the pilot. The pilot makes a legal statement log entry in his personal logbook) regarding his flight time. The logbook either becomes the limiting factor for how much the pilot can fly, or incriminating evidence against the employer and employee.

 

It's more than just maintenance tracking. In fact, that's a very different subject.

 

Those are good reasons to NOT employ somebody who falsifies a record. Fire the 135 pilot for violating regs, don't hire the private pilot- ever, Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

 

I don't want to ever work with either of them.

Edited by Wally
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The answer has been given you. That you fail to understand it doesnt change the fact.

 

It appears that you only wish to hear that which you wish to hear.

 

None of my reply dealt in theoreticals; strictly truth and fact. That may the source of your difficulty in understanding.

There's no way your answers would fit in the appropriate column of either logbook. They're too full of yourself.

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Those are good reasons to NOT employ somebody who falsifies a record. Fire the 135 pilot for violating regs, don't hire the private pilot- ever, Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

 

I don't want to ever work with either of them.

Quite so.

 

One who doesnt understand something so simple need not be paid to risk the company's reputation.

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There's no way your answers would fit in the appropriate column of either logbook. They're too full of yourself.

You've only two logbooks?

 

Your two log books are full of myself? You're sure of this?

 

My answers needn't go in your logbooks. You can put in there whatever you like.

 

There is, however, but one correct way. One. That one is a difficult number for you to grasp does not shock. You understand why?

Edited by avbug
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I worked for a company once that had two Bell 47G-2s used for primary flight instruction. These aircraft were not equipped with any kind of time recorder. The pilots of these ships were issued three-ring binders with Engineering Sheets (to log discreps and such) and separate customer logsheets used for billing.

 

The instructors would log their "off" time on the customer sheet as they left on a flight period, then they's stow the binder. The flight period would presumably include landings (during traffic pattern work and autorotations) during which time on the ground debriefings of the maneuvers would occur. When the CFI and student got back to the heliport they would log their "on" time on the customer sheet. Total time was a case of "first liftoff to last landing." The difference between the two times was the total time for that flight period, which is what the student paid for. At the end of the day, all of the flight periods were added up and the total would be entered in the Engineering Sheet which was used to calculate 100-hour intervals and component overhaul/retirement times.

 

Now, some of the time of the flight period was not technically loggable as "pilot flight time" because the skids weren't off the ground. But it was not broken out. And some of the time was not truly "time in service" either because the ship was on the ground. Nobody seemed to care about either thing. The system worked fine, even if the ship was accruing a couple of tenths extra "time in service" every day. (This was back before Bell 47 main rotor blades were priced as though they were made of solid gold.)

 

Then along came the high-tech Robinson R-22 with its newfangled hourmeter recorder and everything got muddied.

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I parked my 44 on a slope just off the taxiway, right skid low. When I decide to leave I pick the right skid up, but I leave the left skid on the ground for a minute while I wait for the tower to let me go.

 

As I sit there balancing on one skid can I start logging time yet?

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I parked my 44 on a slope just off the taxiway, right skid low. When I decide to leave I pick the right skid up, but I leave the left skid on the ground for a minute while I wait for the tower to let me go.

 

As I sit there balancing on one skid can I start logging time yet?

Only half time since you're only half flying...

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You've only two logbooks?

 

Your two log books are full of myself? You're sure of this?

 

My answers needn't go in your logbooks. You can put in there whatever you like.

 

There is, however, but one correct way. One. That one is a difficult number for you to grasp does not shock. You understand why?

I understand quite fine. I ubderstand that you likely don't have the courage to put yourself out there by providing a multiple choice answer or numerical figure. You're also likely the type who would prefer to belittle others as opposed to taking part in an open and honest discussion which might beniefit others.

 

Maybe you should just try answering half the question at a time. That might be a little less intimidating for you.

 

What's the "time in service" for the aircraft logbook entries that need to be made for flights in Q1. And Q2?

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