night autos

[warpig]

the other night my student had his first night flight. we went to a class d then to a class c to get him familiar with radio ops. we did some patterns and then i demonstrated a night auto. the student is very proficient with autos during the day to a power recovery. when i mentioned to a few people that i performed them at night and in class c they said it was unnecessary and stupid. my rebuttle is that engine failures arent always in daylight. i did make sure to assist in the flare but aside from that he entered and performed the glide. is this bad on my part as a cfi or do others do this as well?

[svtcobra66]

I don't think so.  A lot of people seem to err on the side of safety so much that it might have a negative impact on them later.  As long as you use good judgement and common sense, a night auto shouldn't hurt anything, and it may well save a life later.  Just like the comments on not doing autos without an instructor, I find that if you do them enough and stay proficient, you will be very well prepared if (or should I say when?) the real thing happens.

[HH60Pilot]

I feel that it is all depentant on the skill of the student and of the instructor. Something to thing about is if it is night, what is the student using to tell if the aircraft is in trim. If the only indication you have is with a piece of yarn on the windscreen, are you able to see the yarn at night? I was doing night autos last week in our R44 and had to rely on the inclinometer as the yarn was not visible. If I was doing this in the R22, I would have been hindered in telling whether I was 100% in trim. Remeber that if you are out of trim, the airspeed indiator will read low, and then the student will go nose down to get the airspeed indicator to read properly. Of course, reality is that you are now in excess of your target airspeed and your rate of descend has increased, possibly to a rate greater than you should be at for a proper recovery at the end. Anyway, food for thought before doing night autos without being able to determine trim.

 

Doug

[dangerouslyclosetoavolcano]

Doug raises a great point. Students need to be taught what everything 'feels' like not just how it looks. i.e what 60knots sounds like and how it's different than 80knots. Trim is an area of great importance, with enough attention brought to it students will be able to feel (via their butt) when the aircraft is out of trim without needing the trim strings or ASI to tell them.

[EAGLE1]

Once a year my agency requires us to perform full down auto’s at night.  If we have a new pilot or low time pilot we will start at dusk and by the last few it is fully dark.  This sort of eases them into it.  Since fully half of my 4,000 hours are logged at night it makes sense to practice them at night.  We use the landing light in the beginning and then turn it off for the last couple.  You definitely get to learn the correct "feel" for the auto.  The biggest thing is not slowing down and not entering the flare too soon.  With a little bit of practice it is no big deal.  It really is a lot of fun and it is a great confidence builder.  When you are through you KNOW you can handle an auto at night.  Of course I recommend you practice this procedure with a competent CFI who has experience performing night auto’s.

[crashresidue]

Cheers warpig,

 

I have one question about your assistance in the "termination with power"  at night - have you ever had an engine fail as you tried to apply power at the "bottom"?

 

I shot a "T/P" once and had her fail at the critical moment.  I scattered "helicopter" all OVER the area!  Even as a "high time" pilot, you really aren't prepared for a touch-down when your mind is still planning on a "power/term".

 

Night auto's are wicked!!!  I haven't done one in real life and had the a/c survive.  (I've done two.) One "combat", one "civilian".  Both times -  it was a" plant the a/c in the most survivable position" and hope that everybody was strapped in correctly and that the fire was going to start sometime later.

 

I remember watching the Army shooting "night NVG auto's" at Hunter AAF back in '86.  I never saw anything less than 150 ' of sparks as they slid down the runway.  In "real life" - a 15' slide will end up with you DEAD - unless you're REALLY lucky!

 

I guess what I want to say is that T/P's are the worst thing you can teach a student!  I know about all the insurance hassels, the wrecked a/c's, the dead or injured students/instructers - it's a terrible situation - BUT - the job is to teach student pilots just what they ARE facing in this profession.

 

If you're REALLY lucky, you'll get a restart or the auto re-ignight will work - but in reality, plan on taking her to the ground - and you better be able to do a REAL live auto!

 

Just me, not picking a fight.

 

Gentle winds,

Russ

[Eric Hunt]

Night touchdowns are like bleeding practice - doesn't really achieve much.

 

At night, the important thing is to get the entry right, get the flight path adjusted towards what you think is a good spot for your accident, radio call, warn the crew, flare at the right height for the chosen spot, and level off.

 

After that, you are in the hands of fate - the inviting black spot, which you hoped was a golf course or sports oval, is a wreckers yard full of sharp steel, or builder's rubble and concrete blocks. No amount of touchdown practice will help that.

 

A power termination will achieve all the training objectives without the dangers of performing the actual touchdown. In a past life, our pilots had to do night touchdowns every month, and although we were very good at doing them to a patch of grass on the airfield, we knew that in the real event it was going to hurt.

 

Even on the grass it hurt - we chopped the tail off a JetBanger one night when the ground was 6" higher than we expected. ::confused::

[troops23]

When I did my night rating, we shot out autos down a runway, but school policy was a high power recovery....50 ft or so above the runway. Now I can understand why you're supposed to aim for black, but honestly, I'd much rather line myself up with a road or highway if I'm near one. To #### with lamp posts, or wires, that close to the ground, it should be survivable. I suppose the key term there is "should" but it's better than a "shot in the dark" so to speak.

 

"If your engine fails at night, turn on your landing light. If you don't like what you see, turn it off."

[Eric Hunt]

For a good night auto, you will have to hook right into the flare and zero everything out, with a resultant drop-and-plop that will probably bend the skids. How are you going to practice THAT in real life?

 

The training benefit is in everything EXCEPT the touchdown - power terminate it to the hover.

 

It has been discussed before, but if you are going to plop onto a road at night, which side will you aim for?

 

Oncoming side: Possible advantage is that an approaching car might see you coming, and make way for you. But the approach angle is so steep that you will appear in his window as you flare. Combined approach speeds could be exciting, but in a good auto you will have zero groundspeed, so it really makes no difference here.

 

Same direction side: Minimises the initial speed difference, but drivers will not see you until the stinger comes in through the front window.

 

Lit road - will have overhanging lamps every 50 or 60 metres, perhaps linked by wires.

Road with median island - will have signs set in concrete near every intersection.

 

A real night auto is likely to hurt.

[heliflyguy79]

When I took my commercial checkride it was all completed at night!  The FSDO actually encouraged the night check ride!  All manuevers from settling with power to 180 autos!  I think night emergency procedures should be done but only at an airport with good knowledge of any obstacles that may exist!

[eagle5]

Here's another oldie but goodie, night autos. Haven't done many, probably should do a few. I do like to fly at night.

 

"If your engine fails at night, turn on your landing light. If you don't like what you see, turn it off."

 

 

Gotta love that one!

Edited July 17, 2014 by eagle5

[aeroscout]

Here's another oldie but goodie, night autos. Haven't done many, probably should do a few. I do like to fly at night.

 

 

Gotta love that one!

These threads keep sparking back to life. "It's alive"

[JohnLeePettimore]

You know, I am enjoying the resurgance of old threads. I get a lot of information from them without all the petty arguments.