Your impressions of the Market Place

[i4iq]

Hi All

 

We hear a lot about the vietnam vets retiring and how good it'll be for all of us up and coming pilots. Some think it's a mythical figure that never seems to materialise...

 

Anwyay, I was wondering how those already in the industry - or about to enter it - feel about the market place at the moment. Is it good for those who've done the 1000 hours and want to step up? How is it perceived for the soon to be CFII's?

 

It seems to me that there are a lot less negative outlooks than there used to be.

 

What are your thoughts?

[joker]

The multi engine and offshore industry is screaming out for pilots.

 

That doesn't mean that anyone will be able to simply jump in with minimum hours and expect a command in a few months. You will still need to do your time as SIC. Afterall, no matter how short of pilots, they can't just chuck someone into the Captain's seat with 1500 hours!

 

I don't know what the onshore industry is like, but I suspect a similar story.

 

So take heart in that, but stay realistic.

 

Joker

[flingwing206]

1,000 hours PIC and an instrument rating will get you a job tomorrow.

[Ace]

1,000 hours PIC and an instrument rating will get you a job tomorrow.

I like those odds.

[i4iq]

I'd like to get a larger sample of responses but it does seem that there is a much more bouyant mood in the industry, certainly with regards to employment anyway.

 

It appears that the focus is more on safety and added technology, especially for those who are working EMS or the GOM.

 

Flingwing206

 

I'll let you know when I have those!

[flingwing206]

Flingwing206

 

I'll let you know when I have those!

I'm probably not the guy to talk to - try PHI or Air Log or ERA/TexAir or Papillon or Temsco or Sundance...

[ARCTICFOX]

This may be a stupid question, but with the VV's retiring and the possible shortage of helo pilots. Would that effect the cost of helo training at all?

[joker]

The hole left by the VVs is so far away from the abinitio training industry that I don't think that there will be that much effect on prices there.

 

The hole is at the top end of the industry, i.e. the multiengine, offshore and highly skilled end. Yes there will be some knock on effect, but this will be watered down by the time it gets to the training end.

 

The main reason for the shortage of pilots is not the VVs retiring, but simply an increase in world demand for helicopter pilots.

 

Don't forget we still have the insurance companies to keep prices in check. They run the same risk with an abinitio student whether there is demand or not. Thus, prices will not go down, and I don't think minimum hour requirements will that much either (as I said above). There comes a minimum point where it is just not wise to put the pilot in the aircraft or when insurance companies or the public will say enough is enough.

 

Instead, the demand will manifest itsself in the salaries, which will go up in an effort to attract the pilots and keep them.

 

So those at the training end, as I said, stay realistic. Its still quite a long slog to get to the hole that the VVs have left.

 

Joker

[MJN]

I am currently a fixed wing pilot toying with the idea of making a career change and becoming a helicopter pilot. Looks like a tough market just like fixed wing but it looks like a lot of fun. If I got my rotor wing certificates and went into the market would they accept my fixed wing hours in addition to what I gained in rotor wing hours?

 

J

[West Coaster]

MJN,

 

Depends on your fixed wing experience. If it was all as a private pilot it won't count for much. If it was commercial and lots of IFR you might have a shot offshore. Send off an email to CHC, ERA and the like and see what they have to say. Also look for operators who run both planes and helicopters.

[danter]

This may be a stupid question, but with the VV's retiring and the possible shortage of helo pilots. Would that effect the cost of helo training at all?

 

In my opinion there is not a shortage of VV's. If there is a shortage it is because the price for the schools keeps going up. The school that I went to prided themselves on getting anyone finished in 6 months or less. By the 5th month the $80,000 loan money is already gone. In 2 months the $20,000 the school said you needed in order to finish is gone too. By this time you are working on your cfii and are not able to get another loan and you need your cfii in order to work for this company so you need to find a job elsewhere. The student is also stuck going to school for the bachelors degree program that the students are told is included in the loan. This school scammed many students and only a handful moved on. Some have stopped taking the degree program and are paying over $900.00 a month. This also includes loan fees and interest which the school says there isn't any until 6 months after you graduate with your bachelors.

 

Due to many complaints the school has changed their advertising among other things. I still would not trust them. I am not talking about SSH.

[MJN]

MJN,

 

Depends on your fixed wing experience. If it was all as a private pilot it won't count for much. If it was commercial and lots of IFR you might have a shot offshore. Send off an email to CHC, ERA and the like and see what they have to say. Also look for operators who run both planes and helicopters.

 

 

Hello West Coaster,

 

Thanks for the reply. To be honest I'm sure I'm a green horn compared to most who chat on this line and to make it even more complex all of the flight time I have is fixed wing. I almost feel as if I'm trespassing. I've got just under 600 hrs about 150 of it was on the job and my time in the clouds on instruments is about 75 hours.

 

I'll be 30 in little over a year and realized if I'm going to do this aviation thing as a career I'd better get going. Helicopters have alwaysed amazed me and the life style of a helicopter pilot is so 180 from the usuall. I am married but don't have any kids, not to say it would make it impossible but certainly easier from what I have read so far.

 

I don't know if this exists in the helicopter world but I think what would fit me best is a job that I could concentrate on 24 hours a day for several days or weeks and then come home for a period of time without having to think about work. My job now it's like I never leave work I mentally bring it home with me every night.

 

Right now I'm just at the begining of my investigation of the helicopter world. I would not mind flying for a company that used both airplanes and helicopters. At this time the only one I know of is Evergreen Aviation based in Oregon. Another company that is near me is Columbia Helicopter. I guess the best thing for me to do is start communicating with these companies to find out what they are looking for and what kind of schedules their pilots have. Have you heard anything about either of these compainies? Also do you currently have a flying career? If so how has the ride been so far?

 

J

[jehh]

Your fixed-wing time will help you in stage 2 or 3 of your helo career, but it will not help you reach that first 1,000 hours.

 

If you look at the job postings, many say things like, "2,500 total time, 1,500 helicopter, 500 turbine helicopter".

 

What that means is that 1,000 of your 2,500 hours could be airplane time. They might prefer more helo time, but those are the listed requirements. If you have actual IMC experience in airplanes, that might help as well.

 

But you'll still have to get 1,000 helicopter hours, plus some helicopter turbine time, before that airplane time will help you.

[lockedcj7]

MJN,

 

Don't feel like an outsider. There are a lot of people here with less much less experience in aviation. (including myself) Many are just starting their training and many others are just thinking about it.

 

As for the 24hr shift, many EMS operators work that way from what I understand.

 

There are also operators who have 7 days on/7 days off or even 14/14.

 

When thinking about jobs, don't forget the small operators out there that have both helicopters and airplanes. They usually love dual-rated pilots since they may not have enough work to support a full-timer in each. It also gives them the flexibility of having you cover for someone else.

 

I know of a couple of flight schools that only have one or two helicopters and only one or two instructors.

[jehh]

As for the 24hr shift, many EMS operators work that way from what I understand.

 

The nurses or medics might, but the longest you can work as a pilot is 14 hours before you have to have a 10 hour rest period. You also can only fly either 8 or 10 hours during that 14 hour period, before you're timed out.

 

Many EMS operators run 12 hour back to back shifts for the pilots.

[delorean]

The nurses or medics might, but the longest you can work as a pilot is 14 hours before you have to have a 10 hour rest period. You also can only fly either 8 or 10 hours during that 14 hour period, before you're timed out.

 

Many EMS operators run 12 hour back to back shifts for the pilots.

 

 

That's the norm, but not true. An EMS pilot can work a 24-hr to 72-hr HEMES shift (135.271). I've done 36-hr and 48-hr shifts, but not very often. They must be planned ahead of time. During the shift you will need to have 8 hrs of consecutive rest during a 24-hr period. Phone calls and ground standby's don't interupt the rest, but as soon as you lift, that starts the 8-hr clock over when that mission ends. So, if you finish you first 16hrs of the shift, and you have not gotten the 8-hrs, you go out of service for 8 hrs. If at any time you overfly and don't get 8 consecutive hours in a 24-hr window, you're kicked off the HEMES shift and cannot accept another for 12-16hrs depending on how long you worked.

 

Typically EMS, GOM, whatever will work a 12-14 hr shift. You need 10 hrs rest PRIOR to report for a shift, not after (unless you work the next day, of course). You can accept missions if you can drop your pax or cargo by the 14th hour. If your flight planning was wrong, you can still continue the mission past 14hrs. Then you can fly back to base under part 91 (with your crew, but not pax). File a report, get 10hrs rest, and start up again the next day.

 

As far as EMS shift schedules go, some do 4day/4off/4night/4off or 7day/7off/7night/7off. At our base, two guys do 4day/3night/7off and the other two 3day/4night/7off (actually we have a pilot in Iraq right now, so I do 7day/3night/4off.)

[lockedcj7]

I didn't mean to imply that EMS pilots work 24 hrs. without rest. I was under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that some EMS pilots lived at the station for 24 hrs at a time and rested/slept between calls. It sounds like I was thinking of what delorean is talking about.

[jehh]

That's the norm, but not true. An EMS pilot can work a 24-hr to 72-hr HEMES shift (135.271).

 

Ahh, fair enough, forgot about that, my bad.

 

That being said, I have not seen it done, but of course, that doesn't mean it isn't so!

 

I've done 36-hr and 48-hr shifts, but not very often.

 

Yikes, that is a bit much, but I'm sure it works ok. Personally I'd prefer a 12 hour shift. Do you mind saying who you work for?

 

Typically EMS, GOM, whatever will work a 12-14 hr shift.

 

I work in the GOM, 14 hour shifts, but I usually end up with a 12 hour shift as we often don't have to stay until the end of the day. (weather, daylight, and other factors end our day sooner)

 

I'm sure in the summer that will change a bit, but for now it is nice.

 

As far as EMS shift schedules go, some do 4day/4off/4night/4off or 7day/7off/7night/7off. At our base, two guys do 4day/3night/7off and the other two 3day/4night/7off (actually we have a pilot in Iraq right now, so I do 7day/3night/4off.)

 

Are you getting paid overtime to work those extra days? I've heard that is a sticky issue right now in HEMS. Personally I'd object to working 10 on, 4 off, for straight pay, if I was hired with the understanding that I'd be working 7 on, 7 off.

 

The multi engine and offshore industry is screaming out for pilots.

 

That doesn't mean that anyone will be able to simply jump in with minimum hours and expect a command in a few months. You will still need to do your time as SIC. Afterall, no matter how short of pilots, they can't just chuck someone into the Captain's seat with 1500 hours!

 

I don't know what the onshore industry is like, but I suspect a similar story.

 

So take heart in that, but stay realistic.

 

Joker

 

For what it is worth, if you want to fly tours in Vegas or Alaska, or fly in the Gulf of Mexico, 1,000 hours and an instrument rating will get you a PIC VFR job flying single engine helicopters, either 206 or A-Star type ships.

 

If you want to be PIC of a IFR twin engine ship, that does take more than 1,000 hours, but it also takes turbine time, which is obtained at one of the above jobs. There are other ways to get it, but those are common these days.

[delorean]

HEMES shifts are uncommon because of the risk of going out-of-service for 8-12 hrs if you're flying a lot. You'll only ever have to do one if your really short staffed or your opposite needs to go from nights to days. Like I said, they need to be planned in advance, and the CP or DO needs to approve them. I love 24s.....You take out the 1hr+ drive time, shower, sleep, etc and I only get a good 2-3hrs of usable time at home on a day shift, so why not just stay at work and get paid for two shifts? 36s aren't bad, but 48+ starts to hurt--I don't know how the med crews do it.

 

Yeah, we get overtime. Time +1/2 for anything over 7 shift a pay period. If you go to another base you get mileage, plus $30/day for food.

[Wally]

Anecdotal data-

Of the 4 EMS pilots at my base, 3 are Viet Nam Era. Until a year ago, I was the youngest pilot of the 4, at 56. This is typical of our program- a few are all Viet Nam Era, a few have a couple younger.

 

There's a second "bulge" in the helo pilot population, the pilots who started in the GI Bill heyday. They're as much as 10 years younger than than the Viet Nam Era pilots, so they too are going to be getting old soon.

 

I've read some pretty well founded articles lately on business that say that companies, and not just aviation companies, seem to have a very poor grasp of the looming demographic change. There is going to be a decline in working professional pilots, if for no other reason than the fact the number of people in the age group will shrink with the "Baby Boomers" moving into their retirement years.

The downward creep in formal minimums supports the data that the pool of available professionals is diminishing, especially when you consider that most, if not all of the working professionals hired a few years ago considerably exceeded the stated minimums.

 

My opinion is that the pilots in the military now are going to have two effects on the market:

The raw number of ex-military pilots who'll be available won't offset the huge number of us Viet Nam Era/Baby Boomers leaving the work force;

And, a lot of the military pilots are career military who won't be willing to continue in aviation at the current pay levels. That's going to drive the pay up, slowly, leaving seats for civilian-trained guys already in the market.

I expect the majority of working pros to be civilian trained. That trend has been operating for the last couple of decades.

 

My guess is that these things won't happen suddenly. Those of us still in the cockpit are the hard-core, and we like what we're doing. We've put up with a lot of crap, for decades, to fly- that's not going to change.

 

Somebody's going to fill my seat, someday. When's not up to me. Our profession has always been extremely competitive. That won't change. If you want my seat, you'd better be ready. Somebody will be.

[i4iq]

Thanks for that post Wally - and for getting it back on thread!

 

So, it seems from many quarters that it's looking reasonably good for those of us about to enter the industry. Although I wonder how the insurance minimums are going to be effected with generally less experienced pilots around.

 

Does anyone know any Vets who've actually retired? This story has been going around for a while and it makes sense that they'll have to retire one day but how much of the flying population do they represent and will it be a noticable shortage?

 

(Anyway, for now it seems the first employment hurdle for most will be getting from 200-300 hours for Instructing under Pathfinder insurance and the R22...)

[Wally]

The opening at my base was created by a Viet Nam Era pilot retirement. It was a *huge* surprise when that guy hung up his helmet. He was on the old side of the Viet Nam Era group, and even that depended on what data used- there was some confusion as to his actual "model year." Lots of guys talk about hanging it up, few actually ever get around to doing it. A fair few of us will just move into something else instead of the typical retirement.