SVFR?

[Bear19]

Why do we have special vfr? Why not make the wx mins the svfr mins and have one set of rules for vfr flight?

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Jason

[67november]

'cause that would be toooo logical

[flyby_heli]

SVFR.

 

One of the reasons would be because of the different speeds of various aircraft. 3SM visibility is not a whole lot if you are going say 150 knots. However in a helicopter it is not a problem since we can slow down. That is why alot of times you will see "no SVFR" printed on the map, but as a helicopter you can still ask for and get SVFR to go into that specific airport.

The other thing is that the FAA probably don't want a bunch of private pilots with no instrument training flying around in marginal weather.

 

There are probably other reasons for it as well, but these are the first ones that springs to mind for me.

 

Flyby

[Hawkdriver]

SVFR.

 

One of the reasons would be because of the different speeds of various aircraft. 3SM visibility is not a whole lot if you are going say 150 knots. However in a helicopter it is not a problem since we can slow down. That is why alot of times you will see "no SVFR" printed on the map, but as a helicopter you can still ask for and get SVFR to go into that specific airport.

The other thing is that the FAA probably don't want a bunch of private pilots with no instrument training flying around in marginal weather.

 

There are probably other reasons for it as well, but these are the first ones that springs to mind for me.

 

Flyby

 

 

Its less a rule for what the aircraft and pilot are capable of and more of a rule of how the airspace for which the SVFR is controlled.

[joker]

I would mostly agree with Hawkdriver, that it is a regulatory tool, although, the two reasons are loosely linked.

 

SVFR is a method of getting airborne in under VFR weather minimums without an instrument rating, or where other regulations prohibit VFR flight; for example, when the airfield is less than 3k vis, but you know that it is only a fog layer. Or when the cloud base is less than 1000', but you only want to fly at 600'. Or at night in many countries, VFR is prohibited so SVFR is used.

 

Under VFR flight, the separation of traffic is by pilots looking out of the window.

 

Under IFR, separation is applied by the ATC system..i.e. controlled airspace.

 

However, there are lighting / weather / aircraft combinations where an instrument rating may not be necessary for safe flight, but the minimums are less than the baseline safe minimums for all aircraft...e.g VFR minimums.

 

Thus, SVFR is born. It can only be requested, but may not be granted.

 

Separation of aircraft is provided by the ATC system between other SVFR traffic and IFR, hence the need for a SVFR clearance. However, obstacle avoidance and separation between VFR traffic is the responsibility of the pilot. This does not absolve the pilot of the responsibility of looking for traffic though!

 

When used properly, the SVFR clearence is a great tool for getting airborne. However, it is often misunderstood by many pilots, and can cause some problems, partiularly due to poor weather judgements.

 

That's why all students should be taught the uses and misuses of SVFR.

 

We helicopter pilots get a little lazy in understanding this clearance, as it is very relaxed for us. However, it still can cause you problems.

 

Scenario: You are a PPL, and wish to depart your class D airport. Weather is below VFR at the field, but you want to go out to a nearby airport. You think you can see a gap in the clouds, and want to get through, before it closes up and you're stuck. You call for a SVFR clearance, and the controller holds you for a while as he lands a couple of IFRs. Eventually you depart SVFR, but quickly find that the enroute weather has changed since you checked the weather computer. There's no going on, because it is pretty bad too. So you turn around and request a SVFR clearance back to your original airport. Unfortunately, the controller denies your request, because he has IFR traffic inbound. Now you're in the ****! As you wait (outside his airspace) you see those gaps in the cloud close up rapidly. Your only option is to make a distress / urgency call.

 

Joker

[relyon]

... That is why alot of times you will see "no SVFR" printed on the map, but as a helicopter you can still ask for and get SVFR to go into that specific airport.

The only airspace I've seen "no fixed-wing SVFR" listed for is Class B. It sounds great in theory, but unless you happen to be flying at a time when there are no aircraft on approach (3am?), the chances of getting the clearance are slim. ATC isn't about to vector or hold a number of commerical heavies in order to clear the airspace so a SVFR helicopter can pass. Feel free to request it, but have an alternate plan if it's denied.

 

Bob

[flyby_heli]

"no SVFR"

 

I have seen it on less busy class C airports too (ex: Portland intl. airport in OR). It all depends what you want to do. It's not likely that the tower will hold a number of big jets like relyon points out, and let you enter the pattern. But if you want to come in low level and land at a terminal or something, without crossing any runways, i would guess you are more then likely going to get the clearance to do so.

[Gomer Pylot]

The purpose of SVFR is to allow operations in controlled airspace when the weather is below basic VFR minima. This applies to Class B, C, D, and E airspace. It's intended for use in getting aircraft into and out airports in controlled airspace. We often come inbound from offshore VFR in the Class G with the weather down to 300', and need to land at Class E or Class D airports. The SVFR clearance lets us get in and out without an IFR clearance, which most of the small ships can't do in any case.

 

I've flown SVFR in Class B areas many times. It's common at HOU, and I've been cleared to hold over the main terminal at 300', waiting for a break to get me across the runways. Some Class B areas are more friendly about this than others, but it's never impossible, because most have designated routes for helicopters, and it's just a matter of asking for one of the published routes. I've flown pipeline patrol SVFR at HOU, where the pipelines run underneath the runways, and it's never a problem to cross over the center of the airport at 500', with airliners landing and taking off underneath.

 

The NO SVFR is for fixed-wing, and helicopters are specifically exempted.

 

Edit: Actually, the above isn't technically accurate. You don't need an SVFR clearance in Class B, you just get a clearance into the Class B airspace. There are no VFR minimums published, you just have to be clear of clouds.

[relyon]

I've flown SVFR in Class B areas many times. It's common at HOU, and I've been cleared to hold over the main terminal at 300', waiting for a break to get me across the runways. Some Class B areas are more friendly about this than others, but it's never impossible, because most have designated routes for helicopters, and it's just a matter of asking for one of the published routes. I've flown pipeline patrol SVFR at HOU, where the pipelines run underneath the runways, and it's never a problem to cross over the center of the airport at 500', with airliners landing and taking off underneath.

Thanks for the info. I've tried to transition the Seattle class B SVFR before and, while I wasn't technically denied, after a "standby" and two "request again in five minutes" replies it was pretty clear I wasn't real high on their priority list.

 

I have used SVFR to my advantage in class D before, and was able to teach hovering at just above IFR minimums. At one point the clearance was revoked to allow an IFR flight to come in, so we sat it on the surface until they touched down, then requested again and continued the lesson.

 

Bob

[Gomer Pylot]

You're obviously working with ATC specialists who are completely ignorant of helicopter operations. Not a lot you can do about it. Down here, almost every Class B airport has published helicopter routes through the area, and you can fly those routes at the published altitudes all day while the airliners are operating, because there is plenty of separation. Some controllers can be pains, though, and I've been kept out of IAH with good VFR weather and a published route in, just because one didn't want to bother with me. Hobby has never been a problem, though. You might check around and see if there are published helicopter routes through your Class B, and if not lobby to get some published. Most Class B airports have them, even LAX.

 

There is no need to cancel a hover clearance for IFR traffic, because you're not flying, technically. That's just controller ignorance. And a LOT of controllers are ignorant about a LOT of FAR issues.

[relyon]

... You might check around and see if there are published helicopter routes through your Class B, and if not lobby to get some published. Most Class B airports have them, even LAX.

Aside from helicopter route charts, where are the routes published? I've used the chart in the LA area and ATC there seemed quite versed with those routes, but I'm not aware of any in the the other major metropolitan areas I've flown (Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, San Francisco). Where does one look?

 

Bob

[Gomer Pylot]

Some are on sectionals, and some you just have to get from ATC. Some are published via Letters of Agreement with local operators. Unfortunately, it can be hit or miss. Try visiting the local tower or approach control, and see what they might have available. They're supposed to do tours and visits with pilots.

[zenmaster]

<Gomer wrote "There is no need to cancel a hover clearance for IFR traffic, because you're not flying, technically. That's just controller ignorance. And a LOT of controllers are ignorant about a LOT of FAR issues."

 

Hey Gomer with all due respect alot of controllers are ignorant about most of the FARS because they are not required to know most of the FARS - that's the pilots job. The controllers job on the other hand is to seperate traffic and issue safety alerts in that order. We have a job with rules and you have a job with rules. When doing SVFR operations, IFR aircraft have priority, and while I agree that if you are just hovering in one place, depending on visibility, you should be able to continue doing it, but if you are hovering up and down the taxiways and around the airport you will probably be asked to stop if an IFR is inbound, especially if the visibility is bad. This is where the pilots are ignorant of air traffic operations (or maybe not). The basic rule for SVFR is that anytime an IFR aircraft is inbound or outbound the airspace more or less has to be purged of VFR aircraft (again usually dosen't but could include hovering-in-one spot helos). The only two ways this rule is not in effect is if the controller can see BOTH aircraft (visual seperation by the tower between the SVFR and the IFR) or if the facility has some local procedures like VFR routes or something else. Which I am pretty sure SEA does not. Example: one facility has a local procedure where if an IFR is within 10 miles of the airport SVFR operations must cease.

 

 

<Gomer wrote "Some controllers can be pains"

 

Man you hit the nail on the head with this one. You should try to work with some of them all day in a 300 sq ft cab! Most of us aren't though.

 

 

<Reylon wrote "Thanks for the info. I've tried to transition the Seattle class B SVFR before and, while I wasn't technically denied, after a "standby" and two "request again in five minutes" replies it was pretty clear I wasn't real high on their priority list."

 

Reylon, like it or not as a SVFR aircraft you ARE last priority The way the SVFR system is set up is to protect IFR aircraft, not so much VFR's. I work in the Seattle area and if you can further explain your hover situation (like were you at a stationary hover and what the vis was) and the airport it was at, MAYBE I can shed some more light on the issue.

[joker]

Ok, here's a link from my favourite document 7110.65!

 

7110.65D - Chapter 7 Section 5 - SVFR

For those who don't know, this is like the Controller's Bible!

 

Anyway, in there, it says much of what zenmaster has written. It should clear things up. Notably, the emphasis on the priority that SVFR vs IFR vs VFR has and also the section on 'local authorization'.

 

We have all had to deal with cranky controllers. I'm sure they say the same things about the pilots.

 

The best way I feel is simply to be as polite and professional, and to know the rules (know 7110.65 well ), so you know your requests are reasonable.

 

For any controllers out there; the most frustrating thing for a pilot is to be asked by ATC to hold or be denied a reasonable request, but not to be told the reason or how long.

 

Joker

[Gomer Pylot]

Controllers and pilots are a lot alike, in that there are good ones, bad ones, and a few exceptionally good and bad ones, in both professions. I try not to stereotype either profession. Just as there are ignorant controllers, there are ignorant pilots.

 

At every airport at which I've operated, though, hovering helicopters have been treated as ground operations, just as if they were taxiing airplanes. Any maneuvers outside of standard hovering need to be approved, though. Almost always, air taxiing is treated as a taxi maneuver, not as flight, and is done regardless of IFR inbounds. But I realize that at airports with very few helicopter operations, the controllers just don't have much knowledge of how they operate. I once attended a seminar at FAA ATC Academy headquarters in OKC, with some senior ATC instructors, and they seriously asked if helicopters could come to a hover over the FAF if they were asked to. Such ignorance is frightening. Helicopters aren't such rarities, and every ATC controller should be at least somewhat familiar with their operations. It doesn't always happen, though.

[zenmaster]

<For any controllers out there; the most frustrating thing for a pilot is to be asked by ATC to hold or be denied a reasonable request, but not to be told the reason or how long.>

 

Right on Joker, for this reason typically we are required to give reasons such as telling the aircraft why they are being vectored (vectors to final approach course) or why they are being held or why they are holding short to name a few. A well informed pilot makes both of our jobs easier. I have my facility trained pretty well (I do hold a comm helo rating) and everywhere I go I try to beat this drum.

 

 

<But I realize that at airports with very few helicopter operations, the controllers just don't have much knowledge of how they operate.>

 

Again Gomer you're right on. Most controllers are used to dealing with fixed wing, and our guidelines give us very little on helicopter operations, but we adapt eventually. The best thing everybody can do (I know you folks are probably getting sick of hearing this) is visit their local facility. This way maybe we can understand each others operations a little more. And if your ever lucky enough to fly into my airport you will find a well oiled helicopter machine .

[Gomer Pylot]

IME, most of the time we do get explanations for why we get delays, and that just makes it more frustrating when we don't get one. Overall, my experience over the past 35 years with ATC has been good, and the bad experiences probably can be counted on one hand, certainly on both. Most controllers are competent and helpful, and do their best to let us all do what we need to do. Certainly some facilities are better at this than others, and the difference between HOU and IAH is dramatic evidence of this. The attitude I perceive (perhaps not what it really is, but what is perceived) is that HOU is interested in serving the pilots, and IAH is interested in doing what is easiest for themselves. Fortunately, I don't have to deal with IAH very often.