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Over charging flight times???


dlo
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hey guys,

 

I am pretty new to this forum and I am really considering going on to get my private rotor through my CFI II. I will need to take out a loan which I am not excited about. anyway I could ask a bounch of questions and talk forever but I just wanted to touch on one topic that is haunting me lately.

 

Ok I have taken a few lessons out of pocket and I was kind of suprised to find that out of my four hours flown in a helicopter, every one of the lessons I was shorted my full hours' time. even by the meter. I was shorted five minutes two of the times and probably three the other two times. I don't know how you all feel about this and what about this. One helicopter R22 charges when the collective is pulled up and the other charges when the motor is started or the blades spin.

 

anyway, so i did some simple math and if i was shorted just five minutes per hour x's 200 flight hours needed then at the end I will have been shorted 1000 minutes. which comes out to 16.5 hours. that is crazy. on the other hand, if i was just shorted one minute per flight hour x's 200 flight hours needed. at the end, i will have been shorted 3.3 hours.. that is about 700 dollars, just if I was shorted one minute per flight hour.

 

let me know how you all feel, i know this is typical and it is just the way things are, but i guess i do not really agree with it. I'm pretty sure if i rented two hundred hours in a helicopter i would come out with a little less than 200 instead of a little more.

 

also if I flew an extra five minutes per flight hour and was charged for it, 16.5 hours at the end of 200 is a lot of flight time to pay for.

 

just my thoughts, any ways to avoid this, can you use a stop watch, what about the hobbs meters. should they really start counting time when the engine starts?? thanks guys

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This topic is as old as the Hobbs meter. Keep it simple - you are paying a dollar-per-Hobbs time rate, not a dollar-per-time in the air rate. I would guess that most flight schools bill in this fashion. I don't think you'll make much headway trying to change the way they're doing business.

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This topic is as old as the Hobbs meter. Keep it simple - you are paying a dollar-per-Hobbs time rate, not a dollar-per-time in the air rate. I would guess that most flight schools bill in this fashion. I don't think you'll make much headway trying to change the way they're doing business.

 

 

is there any way not get ripped off and just pay for actual flight time. I know the heli has time limited parts which apply to the motor running., but I have seen it done two different ways in R22's. I guess I should pick the one with the collective meter instead to maybe gain 15 hours over the 200 hour period.. I don't know what is fair but I guess this is how the business is run. I took an airplane discovery flight for an hour about a year ago and I timed the flight exactly with my watch and it was ten minutes short, the pilot wanted to make sure we got back on time so I wasn't charge anymore money./ but at the end I was not credited any money back, just doesn't seem right. does anyone have any ideas, or is there any possible way to avoid this or do we just have to deal with it ontop of the already high prices.

 

dl

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I feel your pain, except I get raped w/ ground instruction instead of flight time. I started getting instruction at Helistream (SNA) and in EVERY instance, they charge an hour or more for ground instruction even though I only receive about 20 minutes or so of actual instruction. Seems like they are charging for me being on the premises.

 

Anyhow, are you getting shafted by them charging more than what the hobbs says?

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aaron,

 

ya I feel as if I am getting raped on flight instruction, and i only have four hours, I don't know how normal this is but it doesnt' leave a good taste in my mouth for a new student who hasent attached myself to this flight school just yet. I don't like comming into land early in fear of going over the time I paid, but when we land five to ten minutes early, i don't get money credited back to me. but I do however get an hour logged into my log book. I know that is what I am really paying for but I would rather get the time I paid for and not have to have instructor lie about time logged.

 

ground school I havent been raped on yet, i have got charged for an hour and actually received one hour and ten minutes. but I can see this going both ways. Then it drives me crazy paying 40 dollars for ground school and then the instructor tells me, he is only getting twenty of it, when the boss is not even their. I would rather do the instruction at my house and pay the instructor twenty five dollars.

 

the fact is, training is already expensive enough, and then when you get short cutted all of the time and they just round time in there favor, unless you go .10 amount of time over in the r22 then you will be paying an extra 20 bucks or whatever it is ....

 

My next pet peve, being very very new to this is,,,, I hate receiving ground instruction, in the helicopter when the time is going. I hate the instructor explaining everything on the checklist to me while the heli is running and i am getting charged. I would rather go over the check list when the heli is off and I am only paying 40 an hour..

 

just my two cents and maybe this is normal,, what do you all think.........

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1. Find a school that logs and charges from the Hobbs Meter and sticks to it. Have a quick glance at the begining of the flight and at the end.

 

2. Whether it is Gear Box Pressure actuated (rotors turning) or engine running, you'll just have to live with it. That's what most pepole do. This does raise a question of 'how many of our logged hours are recorded while we sit on the ground warming up or cooling down. 0.2 in each flight? That's a lot of logged flight time on the ground. A picky examiner could have a field day with that if you are right on minimum hours. That is why I don't try to do things to minimum required hours. A couple hours more will hush that picky examiner. However, that's the accepted way of doing things...not strictly right, but accepted as most practical.

 

Note A: I don't think you can argue about paying the warmup / cooldown time. You are 'paying' for use of the aircraft and that instructor's time.

Note B: How you eventually go and log it is up to you then. You could 'pay' for 1.0 (that's the use of the aircraft), and go and log 0.8 (your air time). I bet you don't though!

 

3. I don't know many places who charge by a meter that is weight / skids actuated. You'll probably find that this is where the problems arise. In this case, during start up, the clock should be started. At the end of the flight, note the time on the clock, and go by that.

 

4. A good instructor should not be giving explanations in the aircraft. That is one of the things CFI students should be checked for. However, student's are their own worse enemy, as they all hate doing walkarounds and are so eager to get into the aircraft! Also at the end of the day, there is some stuff that just can't be avoided.

 

5. Ground instruction - That the company marks up...that's the real world buddy. I'd love to go to the workers at the Nokia factory and pay the $20 for a phone rather than the $500 that Nokia charges me!

 

I understand how you might perceive some of the charging systems. Trial Flights are hugely difficult to judge as a pilot. Getting exactly 1 hr of air time, when you have ATC, weather, other aircraft to contend with is very hard. Granted, to get your remainder back would be most fair, but some companies have a set price for Trial Flights, and won't refund any difference. Maybe they would for instructional flights.

 

In summary, I don't think people are being as malicious as you make them out to be. Yes, keep an eye out for yourself, but if the system is basically honest, 'What goes around comes around!' You will lose some here, but gain some there.

 

Just see it from the instructors point of view. I would put in a 10 hour day, but be able to charge students for only about half that. As you go through your training, rememebr that all the time while the student preflights, all the coffee breaks, the time after the ground session scheduling the next, days when the instructor comes in but the student doesn't show up, days when the student overspeeds the startup and the flight is cancelled, when the student decides that he doesn't want to do the ground you have scheduled today, etc..etc.. - these all count against the instructor, not the student. Many student's don't realise this.

 

Just budget for more than you need, and you'll get by without worrying about every cent.

 

Joker

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aaron,

 

ya I feel as if I am getting raped on flight instruction, and i only have four hours, I don't know how normal this is but it doesnt' leave a good taste in my mouth for a new student who hasent attached myself to this flight school just yet. I don't like comming into land early in fear of going over the time I paid, but when we land five to ten minutes early, i don't get money credited back to me. but I do however get an hour logged into my log book. I know that is what I am really paying for but I would rather get the time I paid for and not have to have instructor lie about time logged.

 

The time should start when the hobbs start turning; in the schweizer this happens as MR transmission pressure exceeds 2,5psi. This is what you should pay for and logg in the logbook. If instructors tell you to logg 1hr. and you have only flown .8 then they encourage you to break the law. This is fabrication of hours and it can ultimatly cost you your license. I would bring this up with the school or start looking around for another. Not only do they not give you what you payed for (after all you want to fly for the money you pay), but they want you to put your career on the line? That is just wrong.

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thank you 2rst1 and Joker,

 

those posts were the truth and some things I didn't know,, thank you guys for your input to a newbie.

 

I know I am just bringing up a point that everyone probably complains about during their civilian training, but some of it is not professional and not good business. If they are going to be so picky about 1/10 of an hour then I better be as well. however it never seems to work this way. I hate learning in the heli while it is running and I hate comming in five minutes early each time to make sure we made it under the hour. I know flight instructors are supposed to do this and its probably normal.

 

question.... Should a student get any price break if the student commits to two hundred hours of rental and business, in a small business with one instructor, one boss who is also instructor and two r22's.. I don't have much of a choice when choosing an instructor.....

 

question..... how much profit, generally speaking will the owner make on one hour of flight time solo in an r 22????? what are operating costs, mid 90's model r22 beta 1?????????

 

question..... Any possible way to cut corners and price when going from a person with very few hours in helicopter and airplane..... any short cuts at all.. any deals to make or room to negotiate with a small flight school that is not affiliated with any loan companies...??????

 

thank you guys

 

jp

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Hey dlo, one more thing which relates to Joker's first comment about looking at the Hobbs meter at the beginning of the flight. This should be the Hobbs number recorded by the last guy who flew. School policy is to record the 1/10 hour that is just starting to come down on the Hobbs meter. This works if everyone does this consitently. My instructor always makes sure we adhere to this policy (as we should) but seems like there have been a bunch of times when the guy before me did not do this. Instead, if the 1/10 number has not come all the way down, then he does not record it. For example, when the last guy shuts the heli down, the Hobbs reads 407 with the 3/10 just starting to come down. He should record 407.3 but instead he records 407.2. That means my starting time for billing purposes (and logging purposes) is 407.2 but it should be 407.3. Even though you an extra 0.1 hour, it doesn't represent any proficiency gained. The whole point of training is to gain proficiency, so why short-change yourself. If it happens only once or twice, no big deal, but over the course of 100+ training flights it could add up. Just something to be aware of. They should make digital Hobbs meters, similar to the digital odometers in modern cars, which would leave no doubt as to the 1/10 figure upon shutdown.

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Why are you paying for training one hour at a time? When I was getting my training I went up with the instructor and flew the lesson we were working on. If we came in at .9 then the bill was for .9 if we flew 1.1 then the bill was 1.1 etc. Why do you have to come back exactly on the hour. No sane instructor would limit the teaching / learning session to exactly one hour each time. The instructor should terminate the lesson when the student has demonstrated his proficiency or it is clear that further instruction will not benifit the student at that time. In fact I do not think I ever had a flight that was less than an hour. I can see if you are purchasing one hour demo flights each time then you would not get a refund for a .9 etc. It is very difficult to plan your flight so you shut down at exactly one hour. ATC might have you go around or hold or not let you taxi to the ramp etc. so shutting down at the exact hour mark is difficult some times. Maybe I am missing something, bust most legitimate schools will bill you for the time on the hobbs after the flight, not before.

 

Also if you are paying one lesson at a time and going to different schools, or if you are going weeks or months between flights you are wasting your money. Save it up to a point where you can fly a couple of times a week. If you wait weeks inbetween flights you are going to forget 80% of what you learned and you will be spending 1/2 the flight just trying to get back where you were after the last flight. My 2 cents.

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Just to clarify the two points of this thread, first is what should you be charged for? The overwhelmingly dominant practice at all flight schools is to use the Hobbs meter. Why? Because it is easy, consistant, objective, and directly related to operating costs. There are issues with this, of course - startup & shutdown time being the one that students note the most "but I wasn't FLYING!...". Another is the (rather annoying) meter in the R22, and the interpretation a hungry student must make (especially if you are trying to decide if it's the bottom of a 6 or an 8 you see - which way does the *** thing turn). Then there are the TWO meters on the Schweizer - the one which accurately measures time in the air is NOT the one we use to charge for "flight time".

 

Then there seems to be an issue of how you are charged (or how you pay). This one seems simpler. The Hobbs reads in tenths, that's how you should be billed. A student should write down the REVENUE Hobbs time as part of their preflight (not just the MX Hobbs, which everyone already does, right?), then write it again at the end of the flight. The difference in those numbers is what you pay for. If somebody is trying to bill you differently, walk away. At the flight school I worked for they tried an experiment on the fixed-wing side - billing one aicraft via the landing-gear Hobbs (higher rate) and the other by the tach Hobbs (lower rate). All that happened was that people chose their aircraft based on what they were going to do - pattern work, use the landing-gear Hobbs, long XC, use the tach Hobbs. Thus endeth the experiment.

 

As far as putting up a lot of money in advance, well, it's your cash! I wouldn't, unless you can afford to lose it. Things happen, schools lose helicopters, or CFIs, or school owners flake, or can't pay the bills. Five hours is the most I would recommend pre-paying.

 

All I can tell you on how you feel about this whole thing is: once you get your CFII, go ahead and start your own flight school, and bill in whatever fashion you deem most fair!

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I'm sure if you point this out to your school, they will give you a free hour or so, i know i would IF a student was complaing-----remember "the customer is always right"

 

on the fixed wing side, there are 2 ways that have become "standard" in the industry for record keeping:

 

1) the recording tachometer, it is capable of "varying" it's time to actual engine RPM. ie: an hour at idle power, would be much longer than 60 minutes. An hour at 100% power would actually be 60 minutes.

 

2) oil pressure activated pressure switch----as long as there is oil pressure? the clock is ticking one hour for 60 minute ratio.

 

It is standard procedure to do the maintenance by the recording tach, & to charge $$ by the oil pressure.

 

A friend of mine has a old 269A that had the hobbs hooked up to the engine oil pressure switch, we since changed it to record time by the transmission,,,, if over a period of the 2,000 plus hours that the ship has accumulated? MAN !! would we still have some parts that have life left on them !

 

The military in the TH-55's? no hobbs, just a watch on the pilot, "write down how much ya flew"

 

Then there is the FAA definition of flight time: "from the moment the aircraft leaves the ground, till the moment it returns"

 

YOU tell ME what is fair? B)

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Well, I think it is perfectly fair (taking practicalability into account) to charge by the 'rotors turning or engine pressure' hobbs, commonly known as the 'Revenue Hobbs'.

 

The FAA defintion shouldn't come into this w.r.t. charging. It is purely a definition for the purpose of logging flight time in your log book and nothing to do with the company. No rule says that companies must base their fee structure on 'FAA Flight Time'.

 

Actually (as I mentioned before), because we also log flight time by the revenue hobbs, most of us have some flight time logged which we shouldn't have logged! But this is only from the point of view of an FAA logbook. Where I am currently flying, the law defines rotorcraft flight time from the point of 'Rotors Turning to Rotors Stopped'.

 

So you see, the logging of it is down to your own concious. Although you are paying for it, you should (by FAA standards) not be logging the time warming up or cooling down. That's not the companies fault though. They still need to recover revenue from the time the aircraft is in use.

 

Yes, maybe some companies should make this clearer (particularly for Trail Flights where 1hr of flight time is advertised), but on the whole I think the system is as fair as can be!

 

Joker

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wow guys, I see many new points

 

I didn't know there were so many different ways to count time on a heli or airplane, maybe this is part of the confusion. I am paying as I go to protect myself and make sure this is the school I would like to attend. I am going to get a loan soon and I want to make sure the school was right for me

 

through talking to sallie mae, there is the school loan and the personal loan, both have same interest rates, the school loan is able to deffer payments until you are done, but they give all of the money to the flight school, in increments (sp) they said. On the other hand the personal loan, they give all of the money to myself and you are not able to deffer payments. so Im not exactly sure of much.

 

i see now, that when i have money on the books at the flight school, it will be easier for me to say, "hey i only flew 0.9 hours, so charge me accordingly. but one heli charges when motor starts and one charges when collective is pulled, i just wish they would come up with one way that was how it should be. Since schools are making alot of money on pilots, I assume, I believe they should record true flight time and bill that way, when the rotors leave the ground, this is true flight experience and just the way I feel.

 

sounds like this topic is forever in argument. I just see a potential problem if things continue the way they do. when I have two hundred flight hours logged and paid. I might be fifteen or more hours short. I doubt one would ever get more flight time then he paid for. If flight schools want to bill this way, maybe they should charge 200 per 1.1 flight hours. or 180 for exactly one flight hour. I don't know , just thought I would get some real opinions from people who know..

thanks

jp

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I feel your pain, except I get raped w/ ground instruction instead of flight time. I started getting instruction at Helistream (SNA) and in EVERY instance, they charge an hour or more for ground instruction even though I only receive about 20 minutes or so of actual instruction. Seems like they are charging for me being on the premises.

 

Anyhow, are you getting shafted by them charging more than what the hobbs says?

 

 

This is what happens to every student that attends universal. I was overcharged close to $5,000 and still trying to get it back. So far it has been over two years. I am also trying to get back other money that they charged for.

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Any real ideas on how not to get ripped off by a flight school

 

I know do not give them all of your money up front??? is it true that when you do give a flight school fifty thousand dollars, they seem to drag their feet in your training, during lessons, scheduling and what not because they already have your money in their pocket?????????

 

Once again, Is it even a possiblility to wheel and deal" a small flight school, or ask them for a cut on the costs if you commit to two hundred hours with them. Like maybe buy 190 flight hours and have them throw in the next ten. Or is that just not professional and does not usually work that way. I know the bigger schools would just laugh at you but the smaller ones with literally one or two students might take you up on the offer. just an Idea...

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You seem to be operating under the assumption that schools are trying to "rip you off". I would say that is the exception, not the rule, and the one or two schools with that reputation are easily avoided.

 

Here's a basic tenant of being a helicopter operator. The helicopters have to fly. There are large FIXED costs associated with commercial helicopter operations - insurance, hangar space, office space, support staff, annual inspections. However, there are also substantial HOURLY costs - fuel, scheduled and unscheduled maintenance, pilot salary (and before you joke about that, realize that it costs an employer roughly 40% more per hour to have an employee than that employee gets paid).

 

The more a helicopter flies, the less it costs to fly per hour, however, there is a minimum price at which it no longer makes sense to fly at all. Schools offer "block time" to help guarantee that the helicopter will fly, and that those hours will be paid for. However, if the school is financially solvent, there is no advantage to offering large discounts for buying large blocks of time - all it does is reduce earnings. If a school is offering large, steeply discounted blocks, they are probably in some form of financial distress, or perhaps trying to finance a large expendature (repairs, new aircraft, etc). It might not be wise to put your cash in those hands.

 

Here's the bottom line. The only way to substantially reduce your flight-training costs from zero to CFII is to purchase a suitable trainer and put it on leaseback with a reliable school. A suitable trainer would be a good, clean R22B or BII, or a 300CB or CBi. Expect to have to come up with between $100,000 - $160,000 for a used bird, and $225,000 to $325,000 for a new one. If the school flies it regularly and you resell it when you are done, you can expect to have paid about $70 - $125 per hour for your flight time (plus the instructor salary)

 

It ain't cheap, this helicopter thing - if you go civilian, it'll cost you about the same as a college degree from a state school, so you'd better really want to fly for a living, 'cause it'll take you about five years to pay it off...

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thanks for the reply,

once again, I knew nothing about this leaseback plan, can you explain a little more, where would you finde a heli to lease, where are they advertised, do i just lease it for myself or for the school?? do people really do this,

 

I would love to hear a little more about the lease option,, i hear your point about the flight schools and I should be aware of getting into a school with realy low block prices. but then again, the more you fly the heli, the cheaper it is to keep going..

 

Is a lease back a cheaper way to go then buy a used r22 with maybe 1000 hours, put two hundred or so hours on it and then just turn around a sell it... i think you could get one for about 140k or so and then maybe sell it for 110 or 120 k. . just a thought, but I have never heard of a lease back, haven't been around heli's very long either...

 

thanks jp

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er.. I think you missed a little in my post.

 

You buy the helicopter, then the school leases it from you. You own it, they manage it and use it, paying you for the time they put on it.

 

If you have the financial ability to purchase and make payments on a $150,000 + aircraft, it can be good way to go, but it requires a lot of careful research. For more info, you'll need to contact an aircraft broker - RHC or SAC/USA can put you in touch with the pros.

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Ya know, I can't get over the whining about start up and shut down. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but don't you have to start the aircraft before you can fly it?!?! When you're done, do you just get out and walk away, leave the damn thing running and hope someone else comes to shut it down? Of course you don't, and further to the point, start up and shut down are in the PTS, so not only is it required for flight, but it's necessary to pass the checkride. Get your loan, find a flight school with a good, honest program, and go spend the money exactly like every other helicopter pilot before you.

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Get your loan, find a flight school with a good, honest program, and go spend the money exactly like every other helicopter pilot before you.

 

wow, that sounds like a plan, now I see, but I was just opening my mind to different options, so i don't get bent over like a lot of people around here. doesnt' hurt to ask questions, look at every possible view and then go forward instead of doing what everyone else does, maybe i don't want to do exactly what everyone else has done. if you read around, you will see that alot of those everyone elses , have been ripped off, dissatisfied and just plain unhappy, and if you have ever been ripped off, you know it leaves a pretty sour taste in your mouth and a gut that just wont stop acheing. along with the sore butt, from kicking yourself alot..................... thnx jp

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I do believe that there are flight schools out there that rip people off, but I think many times it's the schools marketing that leads people to believe that they have been cheated. Schools almost always quote their prices at the FAA minimums, which most people never meet. The hobbs thing is a non issue in my opinion. Every second you spend in the helicopter is training time, start up and shut down included. Do what a previous submitter suggested: Check the hobbs before every flight, regardless of whether it is an oil pressure hobbs or a collective hobbs. Also, you might ask, but generally you don't see an aircraft with only a collective hobbs. In one of our R44s the oil pressure hobbs was actually next to the right seat underneath the carpet. I had to lift the carpet to check it when I was done. I don't know if it is the same in your case but you might check. Ok here's what I would do if I were you:

 

Ask the school to quote you realistically for their program. As a CFI these are the average completion times that I have seen. AVERAGE, you may be better or worse, but plan for worse and in the end you get a check back.

Private = 55 - 60 Hrs

Commercial = Minimums, got plenty of time to get ready for that

Instrument = 45- 55 hours (Part 61). Now this is a way to save some cash. You can do your instrument anytime you want. If your school is Part 141 approved then I recommend doing it in the middle of your commercial. The commercial rating requires 5 hours of instrument training anyway under Part 141 or 10 under Part 61, so do your instrument in the middle of commercial and you can save a little cash. It doesn't really work under Part 61 because there is an additional requirement of 50 hours Cross Country PIC.

CFI and CFII=Under Part 61 there are no hour requirements for either one, so just work hard and when your instructor thinks you're ready then give it a go.

 

Secondly, find a school that has a budget guarantee. They do exist, Blue Sky Aviation in Tulare CA is one that I know of for sure, but I am sure there are others. Check around.

 

Thirdly, find a school that has a flight simulator or training device that you can use for your instrument rating. They can be used for a prescribed amount of hours and can save you some cash.

 

Lastly, shop around for the total package price and try not to focus so much on the hobbs meter. If you check it yourself you'll be ok. Also, running the stopwatch can really backfire. As a rule if a student wants to talk to me about something and I have time, I'm more than happy to just sit and talk, and I don't generally even charge them the time. HOWEVER, if I have a student that runs a stopwatch on me, then I return the favor. As soon as he starts talking, I start charging. Just some thoughts, good luck to ya.

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'nsdqjr'

 

 

good post, good honest info, the stopwatch thing does sound crazy, i know what you mean, one question though. i think my school is 141 approved for only private pilot, will this hurt me when training for instrament during my commercial training, because of the extra 50 hour cross country requirment. does the school have to be 141 approved for ppl, commercial, instrament, cfi i and cfi ii.........

 

thanks jp

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'nsdqjr'

good post, good honest info, the stopwatch thing does sound crazy, i know what you mean, one question though. i think my school is 141 approved for only private pilot, will this hurt me when training for instrament during my commercial training, because of the extra 50 hour cross country requirment. does the school have to be 141 approved for ppl, commercial, instrament, cfi i and cfi ii.........

 

thanks jp

 

It doesn't really hurt you, but it makes things tight on your way to the 50 XC PIC that you need for the Instrument Rating under Part 61. The Instrument Rating under Part 141 doesn't require that XC PIC time, so it's easy in the middle of Commercial to start the Instrument course because you need instrument time for the Commercial Certificate anyway. It's a money saving issue, but the bottom line is that if you're training in a Robinson then you need 200hrs anyway in order to be able to legally instruct per SFAR 73. A Sim or Flight Training Device is really the best way to save money on the Instrument Rating, but those hours don't count for the SFAR 73 requirement. Either way you gotta get the 200hrs if you want to instruct.

 

Yes, each course must be individually approved under 141, but it doesn't really matter. You can do your PPL 141 and do the rest 61, or vice versa. I don't recommend doing the CFI or CFII under 141 because they have hour requirements. There are no hour requirements under Part 61 for CFI or CFII. 141 isn't this really amazing thing, and it doesn't mean a school is good, all you have to do is get a syllabus and submit it to the FAA, meet some requirements at the training site, and you get approved for 141. Personally I like sticking to part 61, especially for the Robinson guys because they need the hours anyway.

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well that makes sense to me, and that is what I have heard from a few other guys as well, now i do believe that instrament training might be a waste of money for me because like you said, i will need 200 hours to instruct anyway, is this correct. plus simulator time is expensive and seems to be a waste of money for the hours that you fly is what really counts, am I right????

 

thanks jp

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