upper limit vs. universal heli

[Castaway]

Don't mean to be too misleading, I'm certainly no expert. When I was looking at student loans, the loan company would pay a set amount to the school I choose to attend. IIRC there were limitations to what they would pay, and how often etc etc. True, the whole sum of the loan does not go to them all at once, but they will not give anyone other than the school you are attending any money.

 

For what it's worth, I decided to do a home equity loan so I had better control over my money. As many on this forum have stated, putting your house up to pay for your training is very risky business. I'm very fortunate that the housing boom in the southwest has given me the equity to make this a realistic solution. I'm going off of what I was told when I was initially looking into the student loan path. I'm hoping someone with more direct experience might chime in. My statements on the matter might best be used for you to ask the right questions rather than get the right answers.

 

i chose the home equity loan path myself for most of the funds for training. knowing that i can at least deduct the intrest made it a wise choice for me. it made the whole amount needed a little easier to justify knowing it was going to be spent on career education. the housing boom has been good to me in the southeast as well!!

[Mitchell99]

I hope to not sound like an advertisement, but I trained here in Utah at Upper Limit. I have to say that I was satisfied with the training and I am working as a CFI, but there are certain things that I did not like.

 

To put a little history to my statements, I was a Private Investigator before I started my helicopter training, so I did A LOT of investigations of schools before I signed up, and I have a list of questions that I researched out that I will send to you if you contact me.

 

Now I have to say that I have had an opportunity to make GREAT things happen in the helicopter training. I have had an investor approach me and we have started a school in Logan, Utah called Mountain Air Helicopters. There are several reasons for opening in Logan.

1) Cost of living is MINIMAL! You can get a college room with roommates for as little as $100 a month. You can live in a full house with a yard, 3 bedrooms, 2 bath for $700 a month.

2) High Altitude training. One piece of advice I was given was that the location of the flight school is also a big factor. You will be years ahead of your comrades if you start flying in the higher altitude airports. Its pretty easy to transition from flying a Robbie at 5000' DA to sea level, to transition the other way is sometimes painful, if not fatal. You will learn a lot more about power management and learn to fly the rotors with little room for error. This will probably make you a more proficient pilot capable of flying helicopters to their full potential.

3) Cost of Training. Right now we are charging $240 with instructor, and $220 solo, per hour without a fuel surcharge! That is one thing most schools will not tell you about until you start training, and it can add $15 to $25 per hour. This should put you about $65K to get to your CFI and CFII ratings.

 

There are other advantages if you want to call me I’ll fill you in.

 

Edward Mitchell

(435) 752-3828

(435) 994-6026

[KeallaS]

How wierd. I went to Snowflake High School.

 

I am enrolled with Upper Limit Aviation and they rock! But DeezNutz school has piqued my interest.

So I gave Utah Helicopter a call, sounds like a small but great outfit.

My question is, which is better (preference aside), a rather large, train in Bravo establishment with lots! of students or a small startup school with plenty of open time? Is it bad to switch schools?

Thanks for any input.

 

Deeznutz if you could tell me more about UtHeli that would be great.

[cospey]

How wierd. I went to Snowflake High School.

 

I am enrolled with Upper Limit Aviation and they rock! But DeezNutz school has piqued my interest.

So I gave Utah Helicopter a call, sounds like a small but great outfit.

My question is, which is better (preference aside), a rather large, train in Bravo establishment with lots! of students or a small startup school with plenty of open time? Is it bad to switch schools?

Thanks for any input.

 

Deeznutz if you could tell me more about UtHeli that would be great.

 

I went to school in Snowflake High School also. When did you graduate?

[DeezNutz]

How wierd. I went to Snowflake High School.

 

I am enrolled with Upper Limit Aviation and they rock! But DeezNutz school has piqued my interest.

So I gave Utah Helicopter a call, sounds like a small but great outfit.

My question is, which is better (preference aside), a rather large, train in Bravo establishment with lots! of students or a small startup school with plenty of open time? Is it bad to switch schools?

Thanks for any input.

 

Deeznutz if you could tell me more about UtHeli that would be great.

 

 

No Problem... we are a recent startup, but come from experience. I attended SSH and quit shortly thereafter. I finished up in California.

 

Our Cheif Instructor and owner did his training at Universal, then worked for another school until we started this operation.

 

Our goal is simply to provide the best training, and not get caught up in dreams of making it big ala UHI or SSH.

 

Too many people seem to have had problems with those guys... and have created a bad name for helicopter training in the minds of some in this area... and it seems that this is creating problems with getting financing. Key Bank and USBank have pulled out of the aviation world, who knows who will be next to decide that its too big a liability... We hope to remedy that.

 

We have a location in Spanish Fork, and at Salt Lake municipal. SL International Class Bravo training is nice... I did mine in SoCal, which is even bigger and busier. SL CLass Bravo is only a few minutes north and east of SL municipal... so you can get the same kind of training there... its a ten minute flight to international if you wanna do some tower work, etc.

 

We offer the same stuff anyone else does PVT/COM/INST/CFI/CFII, we are working on getting an FH-1100 sometime next year for fun, and to do turbine transitions... although its really more for fun and marketing since anyone who is looking to aquire a 500-1000 hour CFI to fly a turbine will generally give the training for free... cant hurt tho!

 

We have a new 44 coming in a few weeks, full instrument ship with HSI and Garmin 430... and Air Conditioning!

 

 

D

[KeallaS]

Cospey

 

In 2000.

 

Deez

Do you have a sim?

[DeezNutz]

Cospey

 

In 2000.

 

Deez

Do you have a sim?

 

 

Negative... don't beleive in em' much

 

I am sure that they have their uses as far as basic stuff and saving money on training... but why not do the real thing from the beginning... we have considered it, but I don't see it in the near future.

 

Microsoft Flight simulator X is only $30...

 

D

[cospey]

No Problem... we are a recent startup, but come from experience. I attended SSH and quit shortly thereafter. I finished up in California.

 

Our Cheif Instructor and owner did his training at Universal, then worked for another school until we started this operation.

 

Our goal is simply to provide the best training, and not get caught up in dreams of making it big ala UHI or SSH.

 

Too many people seem to have had problems with those guys... and have created a bad name for helicopter training in the minds of some in this area... and it seems that this is creating problems with getting financing. Key Bank and USBank have pulled out of the aviation world, who knows who will be next to decide that its too big a liability... We hope to remedy that.

 

We have a location in Spanish Fork, and at Salt Lake municipal. SL International Class Bravo training is nice... I did mine in SoCal, which is even bigger and busier. SL CLass Bravo is only a few minutes north and east of SL municipal... so you can get the same kind of training there... its a ten minute flight to international if you wanna do some tower work, etc.

 

We offer the same stuff anyone else does PVT/COM/INST/CFI/CFII, we are working on getting an FH-1100 sometime next year for fun, and to do turbine transitions... although its really more for fun and marketing since anyone who is looking to aquire a 500-1000 hour CFI to fly a turbine will generally give the training for free... cant hurt tho!

 

We have a new 44 coming in a few weeks, full instrument ship with HSI and Garmin 430... and Air Conditioning!

D

 

The new r 44 that is coming. Is this the first one? How many r 22's do you have? This probably isn't a good question to ask on here but there might be some other peeps that wanna know so what the heck. How many total students and instructors do you have? Is your salt lake location ready? What company does your students typically finance through? One other question. What does your company (utah helicopters) do to help keep a watch on the students money that is being spent? AGain i decided to ask questions in public instead of in person incase anyone else wanted to learn about your school too. But thanks

[Mitchell99]

Forgot to add that we also fly a MD 500 E. We use it as an incentive program for our students, so as they get their ratings they get a free hour of turbine training. So as our students leave our program they will have 5 hours of turbine training FOR FREE!!!!! Basically you get about $2000 of free training that will leave you with the basics of turbine flying and how it differs from reciprocating engines. Some of our students will leave with more time, because my partner flies it up about once every week for meetings up here, and when he’s done he usually will take someone up for fun while he’s around. I also have a friend who owns a Bell 206 BIII who comes up every once in a while and takes students up. I just had a student pass his private check-ride last week and he has already flown both of them.

 

Call me anytime,

Ed Mitchell

 

(435) 752-3828

(435) 994-6026

[fry]

FYI, none of the student loan places (Sallie Mae, career express) will give YOU the money. They will give the money to the school. I'm assuming it because they don't want you to use the money for anything other than your schooling. If you want to pay as you go, you'll have to do some other form of loan.

 

How do the lenders determine how much and when the loan proceeds are paid to the school? For example, is the total loan paid out in thirds at the start of training, after three months and after six months? Or does the school determine the payout points? Does the lender tell the students in advance what the payout points and amounts will be? Does the school tell them? Do the students get any notification from lender that a loan draw has been sent to the school? Does the school provide the students with monthly statements showing the loan draw credits and the training charges (flight time, sim time ground school etc) against the balance?

 

If the students are not asking these questions on the front end they are asking to be taken advantage of.

[danter]

How do the lenders determine how much and when the loan proceeds are paid to the school? For example, is the total loan paid out in thirds at the start of training, after three months and after six months? Or does the school determine the payout points? Does the lender tell the students in advance what the payout points and amounts will be? Does the school tell them? Do the students get any notification from lender that a loan draw has been sent to the school? Does the school provide the students with monthly statements showing the loan draw credits and the training charges (flight time, sim time ground school etc) against the balance?

 

If the students are not asking these questions on the front end they are asking to be taken advantage of.

 

This is what happened to me and many others at universal. The students had no clue what was going on with the money. When the students would ask, they would come up with an excuse like... the president has all that info. Five months later the pres comes to you and says that you need another $20,000. It is hard to believe that they can spend $80,000 in five months when they say they can get anyone their cfii in six months or less. It is also amazing that they blamed me for the disappearance of $6,500 from my loan when they had complete control of the money. Another student had $11,000 missing. I thought it was interesting, when I was having ground with my instructor four months into training, he was upset that he had to take out a third loan. I told him that I will finish under $80,000. He told me that no one will be able to the way uhi does business. Sure enough, he was right. Students are completely taken advantage of at this school even by the instructors. The instructors overcharged me flight and ground from the first day I started, which comes out to almost $5,000.

[DeezNutz]

Lotsa things to respond to so here goes...

 

The 44 on the way is our first...

 

We have 1 R22, and a 44 and another 22 coming in a few weeks.

 

We currently have 6 full-time students...

 

We use an internet based software to track time, scheduling, billing records etc. Each of our students has an account and an email address here, the schedule can be checked online, as well as all of thier records for flight time, ground time, any books or materials they have bought... its pretty cool.

 

We don't take all your money up front... our students usually put some money down, and when they come close to running out, they bring in more, usually between $10,000 and $20,000... but thats up to the student.

 

We use the UVSC GADP program for most our financing... we have access to Sallie Mae, Chase Bank, Wells Fargo and others. UVSC does not send the money to us, it is provided to the student, and the student is responsible for managing their loan.

 

I hope I answered all the questions!

 

D

[danter]

Lotsa things to respond to so here goes...

 

The 44 on the way is our first...

 

We have 1 R22, and a 44 and another 22 coming in a few weeks.

 

We currently have 6 full-time students...

 

We use an internet based software to track time, scheduling, billing records etc. Each of our students has an account and an email address here, the schedule can be checked online, as well as all of thier records for flight time, ground time, any books or materials they have bought... its pretty cool.

 

We don't take all your money up front... our students usually put some money down, and when they come close to running out, they bring in more, usually between $10,000 and $20,000... but thats up to the student.

 

We use the UVSC GADP program for most our financing... we have access to Sallie Mae, Chase Bank, Wells Fargo and others. UVSC does not send the money to us, it is provided to the student, and the student is responsible for managing their loan.

 

 

I hope I answered all the questions!

 

D

 

 

I have a question that has not been answered... if a school does take your money and run and you have complained to all you know who to complain to with no resolution, how is one able to get back what they are owed from the school? Consumer agencies are no help and lawyers charge almost as much as helicopter schools. The only thing that I know of is to take money away from them by writing these posts. I think by now I have taken away more students that were thinking about attending them than what they owe me. It is a viscious cycle. If you have any other ideas let me know.

[DeezNutz]

The State of Utah's department of commerce has enacted new legislation because of the volume of complaints against non accredited trade schools (ie Flight Training).

 

Its called the Utah Post Secondary Proprietary School Act

 

Basically what is going to happen is that any school that wants to operate in the state must be approved and bonded with the state. They require a school to put up bond for as much as $160,000 which is accessible to that state for reparations to anyone who might have a problem with the school. This money cannot be released to the school unless the school ceases operation, and will not be given back until 18 months after that point. They also require access to all company financials... and can seize assets as necessary to compensate a student/client in the event they are ripped off.

 

I don't beleive that some of the larger companies are yet regiestered under this Act... as they were sort of grandfathered in and given a grace period to complete their registration. I have been advised that we are the closest of any of the unregistered schools to have complete registratrion and be certified by the state.

 

Long story short... we don't want to rip anyone off... and if we did, the state would come and take it out of our A$$ anyway

 

D

[Mitchell99]

DeezNutz,

Your right about the Department of Commerce having all the schools Register as a Post Secondary Proprietary Act. We just turned in all our stuff a week or so ago. Its good to here someone else is finally doing it. The only school I know of that is registered with the State is Upper Limit, and soon you guys and us up here in Logan.

I think it is a good thing the State is doing but I'm not sure how well it will protect the students. To illustrate, if the bond is for 160,000 and you have a “bigger school” have several students who get ripped off, well now the state has to take the money from the bond or account, and then divide the money between the students. There may not be enough for everyone to get their money back. Plus, the fact that the government can take FOREVER to get anything done you might be SOL for a while.

I guess what I’m saying is, that as a student you still need to do your research, ask as many questions as possible and then ask some more. You don’t want to rely on the State to get your money back for you. You need to take care of your money in the first place. I recently heard from an instructor at “one of those other schools” that the owner came in and told the instructors that “each student had loans for 80 to 90 thousand and he wanted it all!” He went as far as saying that if the instructors did not start flying the students more that he would fire them. As a student you trust your instructor and this is the slimiest way I’ve heard of a school taking students money! SAD, SAD, SAD!!!

As for the older schools being grandfathered in, I think that the time is either up and they need to register or that time will shortly be upon us.

It’s good to hear that you guys, like us, are making a concerted effort to clean up this crap that has been happening in the helicopter training industry. That is why my partner and I started this school. You know honesty is always the best policy, and helicopter training is NO EXEPTION!

 

Best Regards,

Ed

[rotor wing]

DeezNutz,

Your right about the Department of Commerce having all the schools Register as a Post Secondary Proprietary Act. We just turned in all our stuff a week or so ago. Its good to here someone else is finally doing it. The only school I know of that is registered with the State is Upper Limit, and soon you guys and us up here in Logan.

I think it is a good thing the State is doing but I'm not sure how well it will protect the students. To illustrate, if the bond is for 160,000 and you have a “bigger school” have several students who get ripped off, well now the state has to take the money from the bond or account, and then divide the money between the students. There may not be enough for everyone to get their money back. Plus, the fact that the government can take FOREVER to get anything done you might be SOL for a while.

I guess what I’m saying is, that as a student you still need to do your research, ask as many questions as possible and then ask some more. You don’t want to rely on the State to get your money back for you. You need to take care of your money in the first place. I recently heard from an instructor at “one of those other schools” that the owner came in and told the instructors that “each student had loans for 80 to 90 thousand and he wanted it all!” He went as far as saying that if the instructors did not start flying the students more that he would fire them. As a student you trust your instructor and this is the slimiest way I’ve heard of a school taking students money! SAD, SAD, SAD!!!

As for the older schools being grandfathered in, I think that the time is either up and they need to register or that time will shortly be upon us.

It’s good to hear that you guys, like us, are making a concerted effort to clean up this crap that has been happening in the helicopter training industry. That is why my partner and I started this school. You know honesty is always the best policy, and helicopter training is NO EXEPTION!

 

Best Regards,

Ed

 

 

 

Ed, was "one of those other schools" universal that said that? The pres of uhi had a school in the 80's that he likes to brag about. Apparently he did the same thing to students back then and when students went after him he claimed bankruptcy so the students weren't able to get their money back. He has now perfected his scam so no one can touch him. YET.

[dlo]

first of all i would like to say, I feel sorry for some of you guys that get ripped off by flight schools. I have been ripped off before and it sucks. i have not been ripped off by a flight school like you guys have. I cannot imagine feeling so hopeless and not knowing who to contact if you find 7 grand missing from your high interest loan. Man that would suck, If I was ripped off like that, it would make me wanna run up to the r 22 when nobody was looking and just jump up and hang on the rotor blades, hopefully break them, and then just laugh in the owners face...... ya I know this is dangerous and rude, plus two wrongs do not make a right. so I just said that is what I would feel like doing. cause getting ripped off sucks and especially when you have nobody to talk to

 

secondly, I would like to talk about a loan option that nobody spoke of yet. It is called the sallie mae direct student loan. sometimes they do not mention it as they want you to do the student loan. ( where salli mae is hooked up with your flight school) but this direct loan is something i talked to them about many times in the past weeks. the two loans differ in these ways.... you can only get the direct loan under special circumstances where your school cannot or willnot qualify with salli mae, then upon managers approval and credit scores... the two loans are different because the direct loan is a little harder to get. but they give the money directly to you and you are responsible to pay the flight school. you cannot deffer payments and you cannot qualify for extra living expenses. just helicopter tuition , based on what the school says... the regular student loan, is the common one, where sallie mae and your schoool have to be in partnership, you qualify the same way with both two loans, credit scores and the interest rates are exactly the same, except for the reg . student loan, you can deffer payments up to 18 mo and you can also qualify for living costs while going to school, But they give the money to your school directly in incraments that you and the school set up... you can stop payment to a flight school by calling salli.

 

just another option for those of you that do not want to give all of the money upfront to the flight schools...

 

 

Is it true that when you give all of the money upfront to a flight school>>>> they seem to put you on the back burner after one to two months, because they are concentrating on new students and their money.... I really wonder about that and how to avoid it...

[danter]

DeezNutz,

Your right about the Department of Commerce having all the schools Register as a Post Secondary Proprietary Act. We just turned in all our stuff a week or so ago. Its good to here someone else is finally doing it. The only school I know of that is registered with the State is Upper Limit, and soon you guys and us up here in Logan.

I think it is a good thing the State is doing but I'm not sure how well it will protect the students. To illustrate, if the bond is for 160,000 and you have a “bigger school” have several students who get ripped off, well now the state has to take the money from the bond or account, and then divide the money between the students. There may not be enough for everyone to get their money back. Plus, the fact that the government can take FOREVER to get anything done you might be SOL for a while.

I guess what I’m saying is, that as a student you still need to do your research, ask as many questions as possible and then ask some more. You don’t want to rely on the State to get your money back for you. You need to take care of your money in the first place. I recently heard from an instructor at “one of those other schools” that the owner came in and told the instructors that “each student had loans for 80 to 90 thousand and he wanted it all!” He went as far as saying that if the instructors did not start flying the students more that he would fire them. As a student you trust your instructor and this is the slimiest way I’ve heard of a school taking students money! SAD, SAD, SAD!!!

As for the older schools being grandfathered in, I think that the time is either up and they need to register or that time will shortly be upon us.

It’s good to hear that you guys, like us, are making a concerted effort to clean up this crap that has been happening in the helicopter training industry. That is why my partner and I started this school. You know honesty is always the best policy, and helicopter training is NO EXEPTION!

 

Best Regards,

Ed

 

 

The instructors need to put an end to this. I am sure they did not like being taken advantage of either. They need to put a stop to this so it does not continue.

[Mitchell99]

Rotor Wing,

No, Universal was not “the other school” that I was talking about. This particular instructor was able to find another school to instruct for and has since left the area. This is also another thing to look at but it will be easy for the school to lie to you about. Ask how long each instructor has been with them. If you see a high turn over rate there may be something to that.

 

As Danter stated, “Instructors need to put a stop to it”, this may be difficult as Instructor positions are hard enough to get, and not everyone is willing to quit just to make a point, and then not be able to get another job somewhere else. There just needs to be a higher level of Integrity within the ownership!!!!

 

Dlo, thanks for mentioning Sallie Mae loans! Which is a great option for a lot of people. There are still other private loans available if you look hard enough. Hint: do your research!!! As for the school putting you on the back burner, refer to what I did when I went to schools. ( I will post it below) Basically I recorded the conversation, if they state that you will fly 3 times a week and then you start and fly 1 a week, take the recording to a lawyer, you will be flying 5 times a week really fast. *grin*

 

Due to popular demand I will publish my list of questions and research that I did when I was looking for schools. I added comments below the questions as I learned more and had more and more requests for the Q&A list.

 

I hope this will help you guys/gals out! If you have any more questions call me.

Ed

(435) 752-3828

 

Be prepared as you ask these questions. It is OK to bring a list, but some questions may be answered by others, so be prepared to skip some and ask clarifying questions about others. Ask lots of questions!!! Don’t be afraid to restate a question to make sure you are clear on how the school handles a certain subject. GET THE POINT … ASK QUESTIONS!!! If they hesitate to answer a question or don’t want to answer a question, you probably don’t want to go to that school! They are trying to hide something! If you can, ask some of these questions to one of their students, who you choose, and ask them away from the school if possible. This will put the student in a non-threatening environment where he/she will be more truthful with you. You have to remember 99% of the students out there want to be hired by that school. If you ask them questions in front of the boss, you will get the answer that impresses the boss. When you complete the questions and you find inconsistencies or straight up lies, don’t go to that school!

 

One of the most common things a school will say is that there are plenty of high paying jobs ready for you when you graduate. OK, there are plenty of jobs that is true, but the “high” paying part is where they deceive you. Go to http://brian.hudson.home.mchsi.com/helopay...cales/index.htm and take a look at what the pay scales “really” are! Brain’s website will definitely give you a better idea of what the industry is paying. Keep in mind though that each one of those jobs require at least 1000 hours of helicopter time. Being a helicopter pilot will NOT make you RICH, however it might make you happy!

 

Some schools will also try to hide from you is their accidents. Before you go talk to a school, go to the NTSB website at http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp. Here you will be able to look up all the accidents that have been reported to the NTSB by area, aircraft, and operation. If you do a search by your State (UT), Category (Helicopter), and Operation (General Aviation) it will narrow it down enough to be something you can look though. If in the report it does not state who the helicopter was owned by, you can go to http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/defimg.asp and submit a query. This will tell you who owns the aircraft currently. You do need to take into account the aircraft may have been sold after the accident. This will help you when you question them about accidents you’ll already know the answers and they CAN NOT LIE to you.

 

Another common promise made by schools is that they will hire you as an instructor when you finish your CFI rating. HUGE RED FLAG!!! No school can hire every graduate of their program. Taking as many variables out and putting it in perspective if they have 3 instructors, each instructor will need to teach about 5 students to get from 200 to 1000 hrs. If they hired each of those students you would now have 15 instructors and need 75 students. Now you have 75 instructors and need 375 students. If you have 375 instructors, you need 1875 students, so forth and so on. These numbers just do not work out! The way some of the schools who claim this keep it true is they only let the ones they will hire complete the CFI training, leaving most of their students without the ability to get a job elsewhere. Or they may string you along until you’re out of money or the allotted time amount so you don’t complete your CFI. Another claim some schools make is that they will hire you to do commercial work after you complete the training. OK… again have them show you their commercial operations. Can this operation handle you and all your fellow students and their instructors? Don’t trust the “were growing” statement, as very few companies will need to hire “375” to “1875” helicopter pilots in a year. As mentioned above the math just doesn’t add up! Any school who promises you anything besides good training before you start is lying through their teeth!

 

One piece of advice I was given was that the location of the flight school is also a big factor. The person who gave it to me said this, “You will be years ahead of your comrades if you start flying in the higher altitude airports. Its pretty easy to transition from flying a Robbie at 5000' Density Altitude to sea level, to transition the other way is sometimes painful, if not fatal. You will learn a lot more about power management and learn to fly the rotors with little room for error. This will probably make you a more proficient pilot capable of flying helicopters to their full potential.” Definitely a BIGGER PLUS for the school if all of your training is at higher altitudes! I don’t know about you but being more proficient and more capable of flying helicopters is what helicopter training is all about!

 

Where is the School located? Look into how much it will cost you to rent an apartment, buy groceries, and drive around town. Basically what is the cost of living for the area? Plus, is the school located in a controlled airspace? At a Bravo, or “Class B” airspace, you will have to fly a distance away from the airport to train. Most Bravo airports will not allow helicopter training in their airspace. This will only increase your training costs by increasing the time you spend flying to and from other airports or training areas. They may tell you, “You will get real world radio and traffic experience here”. Well flying in and out every day is over kill! You should look for a school that is close enough to fly in and out for training purposes, but out of the airspace. Same goes for schools located in Charlie, “Class C”, and Delta, “Class D”, airspaces. Yes, they are less restrictive than Bravo, but the same still applies, “Restricted airspace will restrict your training and ultimately increase your costs!” The best schools are those located in Echo, “Class E”, or Golf, “Class G”, airspace that are close enough to Bravo, Charlie, and Delta airspaces to fly into on a Cross-Country flight. The more options the better. This will get you the controlled airspace experience without the added costs.

 

Now for the questions, if you can, erase all the italicized comments and record the conversation with a voice recorder of some type. BE SURE TO LET THEM KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, THERE ARE LAWS ABOUT RECORDING CONVERSATIONS WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE OTHER PARTY THAT CAN GET YOU INTO BIG TROUBLE. Then after the interview have the person who you have talked to state that “all answers have been truthful and correct”. This will give you a way to review the answers as you conduct further research, and there won’t be any confusion over what was said. If they don’t want to record the conversation or state that the answers were truthful, GET UP, WALK OUT THE DOOR, AND NEVER RETURN!!!! Anyone who has your best interest in mind and intends on being truthful will not object to you recording the conversation.

 

 

General:

1) What types of helicopters does the school fly. Why?

Know that you will need to fly at least 200 to 300 hours to be able to instruct in any helicopter due to insurance requirements. If you train in a Robinson it will take you 5 hours more to be able to instruct in the Schweizer or Enstrom. If you fly the Schweizer you will need to fly 50 more in the Robinson or 5 hours in the Enstrom. Also take into consideration you will probably have to teach some time in your career and the majority of all schools fly the Robinsons, so there are more job possibilities flying Robinsons. It is suggested that you go visit at least one school that flies the Robinson and one school that flies the Schweizer or Enstrom and hear the arguments for both. Don’t be afraid to make several visits or phone calls if you need to clear up any contradictions. Also know that there are many more instructor positions available for Robinson qualified pilots. So by training in a Robinson you will increase your employment possibilities. (VERY GOOD THING!!!)

2) How often will you be able to fly?

It is best if you will be able to fly at least 2 to 3 times per week, if not more. Otherwise you are spending the majority of your time just relearning the maneuver from your last flight.

3) How many students do you have attending currently?

4) How many instructors do you have working currently?

5) How many helicopters does the school have?

Take the above three figures and calculate the current student to instructor ratio, and student to helicopter ratio. This will be good to know as it will tell you if they are deceiving you about how often you will be able to fly and how much time your instructor will have to focus on you.

Usually, more helicopters and least students equals more time you will be able to fly.

6) How long will it take me to get through your program to CFII?

This should be on your shoulders as a student. If you go once a week it might take you two years or so. A good goal would be about a year to a year and a half. The fastest you’ll want to go is about 7 to 8 months. The school should be able to work with you and help you meet and plan your goals as a student. The school should NOT regulate how quickly you progress, YOU SHOULD!!

Training Cost:

Don’t let the school request large amounts of upfront money or withdraw a certain amount per month. What if the school goes out of business? Or if you decide to drop out or go to another school? WILL YOU LOSE YOUR MONEY? The most any school should request from you is 3 to 5 thousand to get the best price discount. The best way to go is a pay per flight, or a combination that fits your comfort level.

1) $______ for the regular trainer

2) $______ for the instrument trainer

3) $______ for instructor or is it included?

4) If the cost for the instructor is included how much is it to fly solo?

5) Is there an “after hours” charge for flying night solo?

6) Is there a change in costs for larger payments or can I get the same cost for paying as I go?

7) What is the likely Total Cost Estimate to get all my ratings to a CFII?

How is the cost broken up for each rating?

8) $______ for ground training?

9) Is there a cost increase for a more experience pilot or ground instructor?

10) Are the costs for my written and DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) flights included?

11) Does the school have a DPE on staff?

If not who and how will you take you flight exams? Will you be responsible for the added costs?

12) Do you have a FAA approved simulator for IFR training?

This will reduce the amount of in flight instrument training you have to do and will save you some considerable money. It is nice but by all means not a necessity.

 

Financing:

Some schools are better qualified with the lenders and can offer you more options.

1) How do I get a loan?

2) Is there a bank or company you recommend?

3) How will payments to the school be handled?

Will the bank write you a check or will all the money be handled by the school? If the money is handled by the school, refer to Training Costs above!!!!!!! DON’T EVER LET A SCHOOL HAVE ALL YOUR MONEY!! It is YOUR money! Treat it as such! Am I getting the point across??

 

Instructor:

There is a saying “A good instructor will make you a good pilot; a great instructor will make you a great pilot.” But an Instructor can only give you the tools you have to put the pieces together. Great instructors are absolutely the best choice for your investment. Not all instructors are compatible with all students. You have to find one that works best for you, and don't ever be afraid to tell someone that you are uncomfortable with them or flat out don't feel safe.

1) Will I always fly with the same instructor?

This is important! If you don’t fly with the same instructor you will be using half your flight to show the other instructor what you have already learned and make him/her feel comfortable with you.

2) Can I meet my Instructor before the course?

Make sure you can get along with him or her; you will be spending a lot of time together in a confined space.

3) Can I request an Instructor change?

4) What is the background of each instructor? Or how have they come about to teach?

5) What is each instructors experience level?

Not all important, but it can make a difference. There are 1,000 hr pilots who are horrible instructors and 200 hr pilots who are great instructors.

6) What is each instructor’s ambition?

Again, not all important, but it can make a difference.

7) How reliable is the instructor?

You may or may not get a straight answer on this, but it is good to know the schools policy on who pays for what if the instructor doesn’t show up.

8) Why would you place me with this instructor?

Is it just a determination of who is available? Or does the school put some thought into which instructor will be best for you and your learning style? This will tell you about the school its self also, do they look at you as a student who is there to learn or are you just $$$?

 

 

Check Rides:

1 Who will I take my check rides with? How often does he/she come to the school?

Is he/she close? Can they conduct your check ride at the airport where you train?

2) What is the schools policy on flying with other pilots to check on my proficiency level? Who is this pilot and why?

This is often called a stage check and a good thing to know. A more experienced check pilot will be able to spot subtle things that your instructor hasn’t picked up on.

Fuel:

Make sure to know what and how you are being charged for. Some schools charge low rate but tack of a fuel charge, or charge higher rates and fuel is included. Keep in mind with the rapidly increasing cost of fuel, many schools have to add a fuel surcharge (just like the airlines, and UPS) that can increase the per hour rate from $15 to $50 per hour.

1) Is the fuel cost included in the hourly rate or do I pay for it separately?

2) Is there a fuel surcharge?

3) How will I be notified of any increases due to fuel costs?

 

Insurance:

Be clear on this!!! Know the answer of what you will be liable for if you crash the helicopter!

1) What kind of insurance is provided for the helicopter?

2) Is there an extra cost for the liability insurance?

3) Do I need to purchase renters insurance or any other type of insurance?

4) So, if I crash the helicopter into someone’s house during training I will be liable for _______________.

 

Accident History:

This is going to tell you a lot about there safety concerns and sometimes the quality of instruction. There is no reason for there to be a large list of training accidents. Accidents happen, what the school is willing to do to prevent re-occurrence and did the individual receive disciplinary action if necessary? Is the instructor still with the school?

1) How many accidents have you had since the company started?

2) What is the schools policy on accidents?

3) What was done after each accident to prevent a re-occurrence?

4) Has the accident re-occurred?

5) Is the instructor still with the school?

6) What type of disciplinary action was taken?

 

Flight Briefings:

Some schools charge you for preflight and post flight time. This is where schools are killing their students. Charging .3 to .5 for the instructor to talk with their buddy is insane! Your instructor should allow you to pre flight the aircraft and then he/she will do his/her own (usually about 10 times as fast). If the instructor is teaching you something then you should be charged but don’t allow them to charge you for time you are not being taught!!!

1) Will I be charged the flight rate or the ground rate for briefings?

2) What is the charge for the ground briefings?

3) What constitutes a preflight or post flight?

4) Are these charged on every flight? (or even mandatory?)

 

 

Ground School:

1) Will ground training be one on one, in a class, or study at home?

They might bring up the difference between a part 141 and part 61 schools. This will require a good explanation on the advantages and disadvantages of each. Try to visit a school that lets you choose what is best for you.

2) Will it be with the same instructor that will be my flight instructor?

3) Do you have a syllabus?

If you can, take a copy and read through it.

4) What is the sequence of lessons? Is this sequence written?

This should be covered in the syllabus. This will also allow you to study thing before you discuss them with your instructor.

5) Is there a schedule of ground training tied to my flight schedule?

You want to keep up with your ground training so you will take your FAA written test before you are ready to take your check ride.

6) What are your expectations of me as a student?

Great question to ask just to see what they will say! And then meet those expectations.

Books and Equipment:

1) What will be the cost of the books and other flight equipment will be needed?

List the equipment:

 

 

Headsets:

1) Will I be required to purchase my own headset?

2) What is the cost for a headset?

 

Post Schooling:

1) How many of your students are now working in the industry or have jobs with other flight schools?

Networking is the key in the helicopter industry either by having students in the industry orby having other contacts in the helicopter industry.

2) Do you have job placement program?

Do they have contacts in the industry to help you find the jobs? Most jobs are never listed.

 

Concluding:

1) Are there any ways to cut costs?

Take all these and make them work for you, and compare what you can save at other schools.

 

It is also advised that you talk to as many helicopter pilots and company owners that you can. Get their opinions of different schools. Why to go there and why not. This will be the most valuable information you can get!

[danter]

Rotor Wing,

No, Universal was not “the other school” that I was talking about. This particular instructor was able to find another school to instruct for and has since left the area. This is also another thing to look at but it will be easy for the school to lie to you about. Ask how long each instructor has been with them. If you see a high turn over rate there may be something to that.

 

As Danter stated, “Instructors need to put a stop to it”, this may be difficult as Instructor positions are hard enough to get, and not everyone is willing to quit just to make a point, and then not be able to get another job somewhere else. There just needs to be a higher level of Integrity within the ownership!!!!

 

Dlo, thanks for mentioning Sallie Mae loans! Which is a great option for a lot of people. There are still other private loans available if you look hard enough. Hint: do your research!!! As for the school putting you on the back burner, refer to what I did when I went to schools. ( I will post it below) Basically I recorded the conversation, if they state that you will fly 3 times a week and then you start and fly 1 a week, take the recording to a lawyer, you will be flying 5 times a week really fast. *grin*

 

Due to popular demand I will publish my list of questions and research that I did when I was looking for schools. I added comments below the questions as I learned more and had more and more requests for the Q&A list.

 

I hope this will help you guys/gals out! If you have any more questions call me.

Ed

(435) 752-3828

 

Be prepared as you ask these questions. It is OK to bring a list, but some questions may be answered by others, so be prepared to skip some and ask clarifying questions about others. Ask lots of questions!!! Don’t be afraid to restate a question to make sure you are clear on how the school handles a certain subject. GET THE POINT … ASK QUESTIONS!!! If they hesitate to answer a question or don’t want to answer a question, you probably don’t want to go to that school! They are trying to hide something! If you can, ask some of these questions to one of their students, who you choose, and ask them away from the school if possible. This will put the student in a non-threatening environment where he/she will be more truthful with you. You have to remember 99% of the students out there want to be hired by that school. If you ask them questions in front of the boss, you will get the answer that impresses the boss. When you complete the questions and you find inconsistencies or straight up lies, don’t go to that school!

 

One of the most common things a school will say is that there are plenty of high paying jobs ready for you when you graduate. OK, there are plenty of jobs that is true, but the “high” paying part is where they deceive you. Go to http://brian.hudson.home.mchsi.com/helopay...cales/index.htm and take a look at what the pay scales “really” are! Brain’s website will definitely give you a better idea of what the industry is paying. Keep in mind though that each one of those jobs require at least 1000 hours of helicopter time. Being a helicopter pilot will NOT make you RICH, however it might make you happy!

 

Some schools will also try to hide from you is their accidents. Before you go talk to a school, go to the NTSB website at http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp. Here you will be able to look up all the accidents that have been reported to the NTSB by area, aircraft, and operation. If you do a search by your State (UT), Category (Helicopter), and Operation (General Aviation) it will narrow it down enough to be something you can look though. If in the report it does not state who the helicopter was owned by, you can go to http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/defimg.asp and submit a query. This will tell you who owns the aircraft currently. You do need to take into account the aircraft may have been sold after the accident. This will help you when you question them about accidents you’ll already know the answers and they CAN NOT LIE to you.

 

Another common promise made by schools is that they will hire you as an instructor when you finish your CFI rating. HUGE RED FLAG!!! No school can hire every graduate of their program. Taking as many variables out and putting it in perspective if they have 3 instructors, each instructor will need to teach about 5 students to get from 200 to 1000 hrs. If they hired each of those students you would now have 15 instructors and need 75 students. Now you have 75 instructors and need 375 students. If you have 375 instructors, you need 1875 students, so forth and so on. These numbers just do not work out! The way some of the schools who claim this keep it true is they only let the ones they will hire complete the CFI training, leaving most of their students without the ability to get a job elsewhere. Or they may string you along until you’re out of money or the allotted time amount so you don’t complete your CFI. Another claim some schools make is that they will hire you to do commercial work after you complete the training. OK… again have them show you their commercial operations. Can this operation handle you and all your fellow students and their instructors? Don’t trust the “were growing” statement, as very few companies will need to hire “375” to “1875” helicopter pilots in a year. As mentioned above the math just doesn’t add up! Any school who promises you anything besides good training before you start is lying through their teeth!

 

One piece of advice I was given was that the location of the flight school is also a big factor. The person who gave it to me said this, “You will be years ahead of your comrades if you start flying in the higher altitude airports. Its pretty easy to transition from flying a Robbie at 5000' Density Altitude to sea level, to transition the other way is sometimes painful, if not fatal. You will learn a lot more about power management and learn to fly the rotors with little room for error. This will probably make you a more proficient pilot capable of flying helicopters to their full potential.” Definitely a BIGGER PLUS for the school if all of your training is at higher altitudes! I don’t know about you but being more proficient and more capable of flying helicopters is what helicopter training is all about!

 

Where is the School located? Look into how much it will cost you to rent an apartment, buy groceries, and drive around town. Basically what is the cost of living for the area? Plus, is the school located in a controlled airspace? At a Bravo, or “Class B” airspace, you will have to fly a distance away from the airport to train. Most Bravo airports will not allow helicopter training in their airspace. This will only increase your training costs by increasing the time you spend flying to and from other airports or training areas. They may tell you, “You will get real world radio and traffic experience here”. Well flying in and out every day is over kill! You should look for a school that is close enough to fly in and out for training purposes, but out of the airspace. Same goes for schools located in Charlie, “Class C”, and Delta, “Class D”, airspaces. Yes, they are less restrictive than Bravo, but the same still applies, “Restricted airspace will restrict your training and ultimately increase your costs!” The best schools are those located in Echo, “Class E”, or Golf, “Class G”, airspace that are close enough to Bravo, Charlie, and Delta airspaces to fly into on a Cross-Country flight. The more options the better. This will get you the controlled airspace experience without the added costs.

 

Now for the questions, if you can, erase all the italicized comments and record the conversation with a voice recorder of some type. BE SURE TO LET THEM KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, THERE ARE LAWS ABOUT RECORDING CONVERSATIONS WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE OTHER PARTY THAT CAN GET YOU INTO BIG TROUBLE. Then after the interview have the person who you have talked to state that “all answers have been truthful and correct”. This will give you a way to review the answers as you conduct further research, and there won’t be any confusion over what was said. If they don’t want to record the conversation or state that the answers were truthful, GET UP, WALK OUT THE DOOR, AND NEVER RETURN!!!! Anyone who has your best interest in mind and intends on being truthful will not object to you recording the conversation.

General:

1) What types of helicopters does the school fly. Why?

Know that you will need to fly at least 200 to 300 hours to be able to instruct in any helicopter due to insurance requirements. If you train in a Robinson it will take you 5 hours more to be able to instruct in the Schweizer or Enstrom. If you fly the Schweizer you will need to fly 50 more in the Robinson or 5 hours in the Enstrom. Also take into consideration you will probably have to teach some time in your career and the majority of all schools fly the Robinsons, so there are more job possibilities flying Robinsons. It is suggested that you go visit at least one school that flies the Robinson and one school that flies the Schweizer or Enstrom and hear the arguments for both. Don’t be afraid to make several visits or phone calls if you need to clear up any contradictions. Also know that there are many more instructor positions available for Robinson qualified pilots. So by training in a Robinson you will increase your employment possibilities. (VERY GOOD THING!!!)

2) How often will you be able to fly?

It is best if you will be able to fly at least 2 to 3 times per week, if not more. Otherwise you are spending the majority of your time just relearning the maneuver from your last flight.

3) How many students do you have attending currently?

4) How many instructors do you have working currently?

5) How many helicopters does the school have?

Take the above three figures and calculate the current student to instructor ratio, and student to helicopter ratio. This will be good to know as it will tell you if they are deceiving you about how often you will be able to fly and how much time your instructor will have to focus on you.

Usually, more helicopters and least students equals more time you will be able to fly.

6) How long will it take me to get through your program to CFII?

This should be on your shoulders as a student. If you go once a week it might take you two years or so. A good goal would be about a year to a year and a half. The fastest you’ll want to go is about 7 to 8 months. The school should be able to work with you and help you meet and plan your goals as a student. The school should NOT regulate how quickly you progress, YOU SHOULD!!

Training Cost:

Don’t let the school request large amounts of upfront money or withdraw a certain amount per month. What if the school goes out of business? Or if you decide to drop out or go to another school? WILL YOU LOSE YOUR MONEY? The most any school should request from you is 3 to 5 thousand to get the best price discount. The best way to go is a pay per flight, or a combination that fits your comfort level.

1) $______ for the regular trainer

2) $______ for the instrument trainer

3) $______ for instructor or is it included?

4) If the cost for the instructor is included how much is it to fly solo?

5) Is there an “after hours” charge for flying night solo?

6) Is there a change in costs for larger payments or can I get the same cost for paying as I go?

7) What is the likely Total Cost Estimate to get all my ratings to a CFII?

How is the cost broken up for each rating?

8) $______ for ground training?

9) Is there a cost increase for a more experience pilot or ground instructor?

10) Are the costs for my written and DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) flights included?

11) Does the school have a DPE on staff?

If not who and how will you take you flight exams? Will you be responsible for the added costs?

12) Do you have a FAA approved simulator for IFR training?

This will reduce the amount of in flight instrument training you have to do and will save you some considerable money. It is nice but by all means not a necessity.

 

Financing:

Some schools are better qualified with the lenders and can offer you more options.

1) How do I get a loan?

2) Is there a bank or company you recommend?

3) How will payments to the school be handled?

Will the bank write you a check or will all the money be handled by the school? If the money is handled by the school, refer to Training Costs above!!!!!!! DON’T EVER LET A SCHOOL HAVE ALL YOUR MONEY!! It is YOUR money! Treat it as such! Am I getting the point across??

 

Instructor:

There is a saying “A good instructor will make you a good pilot; a great instructor will make you a great pilot.” But an Instructor can only give you the tools you have to put the pieces together. Great instructors are absolutely the best choice for your investment. Not all instructors are compatible with all students. You have to find one that works best for you, and don't ever be afraid to tell someone that you are uncomfortable with them or flat out don't feel safe.

1) Will I always fly with the same instructor?

This is important! If you don’t fly with the same instructor you will be using half your flight to show the other instructor what you have already learned and make him/her feel comfortable with you.

2) Can I meet my Instructor before the course?

Make sure you can get along with him or her; you will be spending a lot of time together in a confined space.

3) Can I request an Instructor change?

4) What is the background of each instructor? Or how have they come about to teach?

5) What is each instructors experience level?

Not all important, but it can make a difference. There are 1,000 hr pilots who are horrible instructors and 200 hr pilots who are great instructors.

6) What is each instructor’s ambition?

Again, not all important, but it can make a difference.

7) How reliable is the instructor?

You may or may not get a straight answer on this, but it is good to know the schools policy on who pays for what if the instructor doesn’t show up.

8) Why would you place me with this instructor?

Is it just a determination of who is available? Or does the school put some thought into which instructor will be best for you and your learning style? This will tell you about the school its self also, do they look at you as a student who is there to learn or are you just $$$?

Check Rides:

1 Who will I take my check rides with? How often does he/she come to the school?

Is he/she close? Can they conduct your check ride at the airport where you train?

2) What is the schools policy on flying with other pilots to check on my proficiency level? Who is this pilot and why?

This is often called a stage check and a good thing to know. A more experienced check pilot will be able to spot subtle things that your instructor hasn’t picked up on.

Fuel:

Make sure to know what and how you are being charged for. Some schools charge low rate but tack of a fuel charge, or charge higher rates and fuel is included. Keep in mind with the rapidly increasing cost of fuel, many schools have to add a fuel surcharge (just like the airlines, and UPS) that can increase the per hour rate from $15 to $50 per hour.

1) Is the fuel cost included in the hourly rate or do I pay for it separately?

2) Is there a fuel surcharge?

3) How will I be notified of any increases due to fuel costs?

 

Insurance:

Be clear on this!!! Know the answer of what you will be liable for if you crash the helicopter!

1) What kind of insurance is provided for the helicopter?

2) Is there an extra cost for the liability insurance?

3) Do I need to purchase renters insurance or any other type of insurance?

4) So, if I crash the helicopter into someone’s house during training I will be liable for _______________.

 

Accident History:

This is going to tell you a lot about there safety concerns and sometimes the quality of instruction. There is no reason for there to be a large list of training accidents. Accidents happen, what the school is willing to do to prevent re-occurrence and did the individual receive disciplinary action if necessary? Is the instructor still with the school?

1) How many accidents have you had since the company started?

2) What is the schools policy on accidents?

3) What was done after each accident to prevent a re-occurrence?

4) Has the accident re-occurred?

5) Is the instructor still with the school?

6) What type of disciplinary action was taken?

 

Flight Briefings:

Some schools charge you for preflight and post flight time. This is where schools are killing their students. Charging .3 to .5 for the instructor to talk with their buddy is insane! Your instructor should allow you to pre flight the aircraft and then he/she will do his/her own (usually about 10 times as fast). If the instructor is teaching you something then you should be charged but don’t allow them to charge you for time you are not being taught!!!

1) Will I be charged the flight rate or the ground rate for briefings?

2) What is the charge for the ground briefings?

3) What constitutes a preflight or post flight?

4) Are these charged on every flight? (or even mandatory?)

Ground School:

1) Will ground training be one on one, in a class, or study at home?

They might bring up the difference between a part 141 and part 61 schools. This will require a good explanation on the advantages and disadvantages of each. Try to visit a school that lets you choose what is best for you.

2) Will it be with the same instructor that will be my flight instructor?

3) Do you have a syllabus?

If you can, take a copy and read through it.

4) What is the sequence of lessons? Is this sequence written?

This should be covered in the syllabus. This will also allow you to study thing before you discuss them with your instructor.

5) Is there a schedule of ground training tied to my flight schedule?

You want to keep up with your ground training so you will take your FAA written test before you are ready to take your check ride.

6) What are your expectations of me as a student?

Great question to ask just to see what they will say! And then meet those expectations.

Books and Equipment:

1) What will be the cost of the books and other flight equipment will be needed?

List the equipment:

Headsets:

1) Will I be required to purchase my own headset?

2) What is the cost for a headset?

 

Post Schooling:

1) How many of your students are now working in the industry or have jobs with other flight schools?

Networking is the key in the helicopter industry either by having students in the industry orby having other contacts in the helicopter industry.

2) Do you have job placement program?

Do they have contacts in the industry to help you find the jobs? Most jobs are never listed.

 

Concluding:

1) Are there any ways to cut costs?

Take all these and make them work for you, and compare what you can save at other schools.

 

It is also advised that you talk to as many helicopter pilots and company owners that you can. Get their opinions of different schools. Why to go there and why not. This will be the most valuable information you can get!

 

 

 

Well said. This info is very important. I wish I would have had this info before I started training. I noticed that you ask how much the haedset is, I was charged $50.00 more than the other students. We were also told that flight time is a flat $205.00 an hour for the r22. They told us that the pre and post flight were included in this amount. It sure is not. When you are talking to your instructor when you are off the clock, make sure you are not being charged for this time. I had two new instructors take me to lunch, they paid. Then they charged me in hours to pay for our lunches and for their time. When I was going over my statement I wondered how it was possible to have 12 hours of ground and 2 hours of flight. This is how and they also threw in two extra hours, probably for a tip for themselves. A $100.00 tip is not bad for an hour while you are eating. Over the course of eleven months this added up to $5,000.00. I am still trying to get this money back.

[danter]

DeezNutz,

Your right about the Department of Commerce having all the schools Register as a Post Secondary Proprietary Act. We just turned in all our stuff a week or so ago. Its good to here someone else is finally doing it. The only school I know of that is registered with the State is Upper Limit, and soon you guys and us up here in Logan.

I think it is a good thing the State is doing but I'm not sure how well it will protect the students. To illustrate, if the bond is for 160,000 and you have a “bigger school” have several students who get ripped off, well now the state has to take the money from the bond or account, and then divide the money between the students. There may not be enough for everyone to get their money back. Plus, the fact that the government can take FOREVER to get anything done you might be SOL for a while.

I guess what I’m saying is, that as a student you still need to do your research, ask as many questions as possible and then ask some more. You don’t want to rely on the State to get your money back for you. You need to take care of your money in the first place. I recently heard from an instructor at “one of those other schools” that the owner came in and told the instructors that “each student had loans for 80 to 90 thousand and he wanted it all!” He went as far as saying that if the instructors did not start flying the students more that he would fire them. As a student you trust your instructor and this is the slimiest way I’ve heard of a school taking students money! SAD, SAD, SAD!!!

As for the older schools being grandfathered in, I think that the time is either up and they need to register or that time will shortly be upon us.

It’s good to hear that you guys, like us, are making a concerted effort to clean up this crap that has been happening in the helicopter training industry. That is why my partner and I started this school. You know honesty is always the best policy, and helicopter training is NO EXEPTION!

 

Best Regards,

Ed

 

 

What was the address for the department of commerce in Salt lake? Thank you.

[Mitchell99]

Danter,

Go to the Department of Consumer protection’s website at http://www.dcp.utah.gov/ There, under the “How Do I …?” link you will find a link to the Consumer Complaint Form and also the contact information for the Department which is;

Division of Consumer Protection

Heber M. Wells Building, Second Floor

160 East 300 South

SM 146704

Salt Lake City, Utah 84114

801-530-6601

Toll Free in Utah: 800-721-7233

fax: 801-530-6001

 

Hope that helps and Good Luck,

Ed

[danter]

Danter,

Go to the Department of Consumer protection’s website at http://www.dcp.utah.gov/ There, under the “How Do I …?” link you will find a link to the Consumer Complaint Form and also the contact information for the Department which is;

Division of Consumer Protection

Heber M. Wells Building, Second Floor

160 East 300 South

SM 146704

Salt Lake City, Utah 84114

801-530-6601

Toll Free in Utah: 800-721-7233

fax: 801-530-6001

 

Hope that helps and Good Luck,

Ed

 

 

Thank you for the info. I will do this as soon as I can. Also, did you say you interviewed with uhi? Have you heard any other complaints from them?

 

Thank you

[HelliBoy]

I lived in salt lake while I worked for powderbird guides before I started my training and cost of living is cheaper than most places by far (almost half). Also you utah guys might want to check out high desert helicopters in Ogden, they are in on the uvsc program and I've heard some good things about them.

[Mitchell99]

Danter,

I did go investigate the universal program when I was looking into going to different schools, needless to say their answers to my questions made up my mind. Never did anything with them but talk. I also talked with every other school in Utah (at the time). All I can say is ASK QUESTIONS, the more you ask the more you will you will poke holes in their lies. I actually had one school to tell me to “not come back” because I was asking them too many questions. On another point, DO SOME RESEARCH! This is your career don’t just take one persons point as the absolute truth. (That goes for mine too)

 

Ed