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Guest rookie101

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBHpMtyZ8IU

http://www.justhelicopters.com/topics/deta...nChannel=Topics

 

The above video was taken from the Justhelicopters website and you can see what they said about the video in the second link. So what do you all think? The entire time I was thinking wire strike! I am going to assume that he knew the area very well and has at least some time in the Robby, but never the less, this leans slightly to the dumb side of things.

 

I would also like you guys to identify what dangerous situations the pilot could get into. From my point of view, on the descent does it looks as though retreating blade stall could've developed? He seemed to be going down pretty quickly, especially between 18-20 secs.? Enough time for blade stall to form? Dunno, that's why I am asking you.

 

Than finally, does anyone have any info (charts, reports, etc.) on flying over water IGE. In my readings I came across how water takes more power to fly/hover over than a normal hard surface (roads, runways, whatever). I would like to see the numbers on it if anyone has something on it, plain curiosity.

 

Cheers!

rookie

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One cannot just automatically put this video into the relm of unsafe. We do not know the pilots experience. We do not know how well he knew the terrain. There are several helicopter jobs out there that put you into that exact flying profile. Powerline patrol, pipeline patrol, flying in the military, fire fighting, etc. This is a nap of the earth video. I did not see anyone or anything in the water or on the ground that would have been killed or damaged by an accident or mis-judgement. This is not something that a low time pilot with little or no training needs to try. This is helicopter flying that should be done by a trained professional. Pilots in the movie industry fly like this on a daily basis. My take on this is, a video filmed from a helicopter flying a waterway at low level, no danger to persons or property on the ground. I think that the guy that flys the helicopter with a chain saw hanging 100' below, 10' from a 100,000 volt powerline, in the dead man's curve, 8 hours a day is the crazy one.

bossman

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I've been flying over water for 25 years, and IME it does not take more power to fly, or hover, over water than over land, especially flying. That isn't a consideration in this video. However, putting yourself in that situation when there is no need to is foolish. If you've made a thorough recon, and know there are no obstacles or wires, and no really sharp turns you can't make at speed, and there is a requirement to be down there, then it's acceptable. To just drop down for fun without looking around first, is another story. I try to never take unnecessary risks while flying, because there are sufficient risks already in place. I don't need more that I impose on myself.

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I would also like you guys to identify what dangerous situations the pilot could get into. From my point of view, on the descent does it looks as though retreating blade stall could've developed? He seemed to be going down pretty quickly, especially between 18-20 secs.? Enough time for blade stall to form? Dunno, that's why I am asking you.

 

A rapid descent can't develop retreating blade stall. RBS occurs at high forward airspeed. The airspeed needed to develop RBS gets lower as altitude (or density altitude) and/or gross weight goes up. I couldn't see the airspeed indicator well enough to determine their forward airspeed, but the descent wasn't any faster than an auto.

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Looks like 4000PA on the altimeter and 80KIAS desert terrain so it might be warm not too likely to get RBS . Wire strike is what comes to my mind. Glad the camera was'nt dropped when outside the cockpit. Not what I would be doing with my new 22 but it has been along time since I have been able to just fly for fun. Statistically looks like and accident waiting to happen, fly safe.

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I'm only halfway through it-ah dial-up-and I can say COOL! It's a little too low for me though.

 

I saw a pipe crossing the canal. I'd want to be a few feet higher for those suprises. I also saw a power line pole to the right.

 

As for retreating blade stall, he's only doing 70kts or so. Yesterday, I got the bird up to 85kts and she was shuddering like something was out of balance. It cleared up at 75kts. I was wondering if that might have been a pre-retreating blade stall shudder.

 

That VSI was neat, 1500 fpm? Dang he was coming down fast. We couldn't hit 600 fpm on settling with power, and we fell a good 500 feet. I think we fall faster in an auto-which I still don't like.

 

Is that water on the windshield?

 

It looks like he's about 10 feet or so above the ground. Isn't that in the dead mans curve? I wonder if he's an ex-army pilot?

 

Gotta go make dinner, pork shoulder, yum.

 

Later

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I seriously doubt there was any danger of retreating blade stall. The one and only time I experienced RTB was on a post maintenance check flight doing our Vmax vibe check. It was a cool day and the engines were putting out serious power. We were in the neighborhood of 175 to 180 kts straight and level and one blade was out of track. It encountered RTB while the others flew fine. It was VERY clear when it happened; slight left roll and nose up accompanied by SEVERE one per vertical banging.

 

I am sure the R-22 encounters RTB at different speeds than a Seahawk, but I can see it happening anywhere less than 150 kts. The bigger danger is unloading the rotor head in high speed flight. ie high speed autorotative descents. I don't think this was happening in the video.

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I will say one thing. I've learned from taking video from my motorcycle that video's are very very mis-leading. Depending on the surroundings they can make you look like you are going extremely fast when your not, and on the flip side of the coin they can make you look like your crawling along when your hauling butt. The depth perception is horrible in video's as well.

 

So with all that in mind I can't say accuratly what his altitude was. That would be the only thing I could see that would be a bad thing. It appeared that (at least I hope so) that the pilot knew the route of flight pretty well. I don't believe that they were anywhere near RTB. I mean on a 22 the Vne is 102knt's on a regular skid ship. From the couple of glimpses at their speed it was always around 65 - 70 knts.

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That VSI was neat, 1500 fpm? Dang he was coming down fast. We couldn't hit 600 fpm on settling with power, and we fell a good 500 feet. I think we fall faster in an auto-which I still don't like.

 

If you only had 600 fpm on the VSI and you descended 500 feet you didn't have settling with power. 1500 fpm is a normal speed for an autorotation. 2000+ is normal for settling, although, you (your instructor)shouldn't let it get that far if it's only a demonstration.

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so bottom line is. nobody can accurately disect the video cause we cannot even see some of the most important gauges and what not. secondly, video's are very deceiving, you cannot see how fast he is going and exactly how low he is flying without gauges. so debating back and forth about what could happen or might of happened is not going to get anybody nowhere. just my opinion.

 

video looks cool, fun, and something only an experienced heli pilot should do. is there more safe options available to flying?? sure. so it is not completly safe. but niether is driving your car or walking outside. should newbies try this at home??? NO Should this be reported to the FAA ??? NO Should this guy get reamed for showing us this video ?? NO

 

these video's are posted for viewer enjoyment and mild chat about... probably not to be argued about if it is safe or not.... or what could of happened.... Nobody is smarter than the next in trying to point out what could of happened if this would of happened first, or if the gauge read this.. nobody cares.. The only thing I cared about in this video was that it was exciting and entertaining....

 

another bottom line is:::: newbies: helicopters are very dangerous and just flying them is very dangerous. there are safer careers available. By no means, try anything out of your scope of practice, until you have the training and experience or bad things could happen, you might actually have to cancell christmas.

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Come on guys, you cant fly the R22 fast enough to worry about RBS in almost any condition. Thats the one problem you need not spend too much time concerning yourself with in a 22.

 

Witch, as far as vibrations, each bird is different..each has its own sweet spot where it likes to fly with minimum vibration. Usually theres a good wobble around 80 KIAS on most R22's I have flown..some of them get better if you push thru it to 85 or 90 kias...just depends on tracking, balance, amount of bird sh*t on the blades, etc.. !

 

Bossman- I respectfully disagree...almost everything I saw in this video was irresponsible, and I really dont care how many hours the pilot has, or how familiar they THINK they are with the terrain. I have seen the results of experienced CFI's in terrain they often fly in, and the dead bodies covered in sheets tells a different story.

 

I totally agree with Gomer on this one....no need to increase your odds of dying today anymore than you have to.

 

Goldy

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Goldy,

Not knowing you, I don't know if you have ever actually done any helicopter work. This is where helicopters that work, live. If you always fly corp., way up high, you would not know about low level patrol and photo work. We do this kind of work everyday.

bossman

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so bottom line is. nobody can accurately disect the video cause we cannot even see some of the most important gauges and what not. secondly, video's are very deceiving, you cannot see how fast he is going and exactly how low he is flying without gauges. so debating back and forth about what could happen or might of happened is not going to get anybody nowhere. just my opinion.

 

video looks cool, fun, and something only an experienced heli pilot should do. is there more safe options available to flying?? sure. so it is not completly safe. but niether is driving your car or walking outside. should newbies try this at home??? NO Should this be reported to the FAA ??? NO Should this guy get reamed for showing us this video ?? NO

 

these video's are posted for viewer enjoyment and mild chat about... probably not to be argued about if it is safe or not.... or what could of happened.... Nobody is smarter than the next in trying to point out what could of happened if this would of happened first, or if the gauge read this.. nobody cares.. The only thing I cared about in this video was that it was exciting and entertaining....

 

another bottom line is:::: newbies: helicopters are very dangerous and just flying them is very dangerous. there are safer careers available. By no means, try anything out of your scope of practice, until you have the training and experience or bad things could happen, you might actually have to cancell christmas.

 

Just curious what gauges that I need to see to be able to disect the video. From my experience with flying low level I don't need gauges to tell what he was doing and if you need to be looking at the panel when you are flying that low, then you shouldn't be flying that low to begin with.

 

Comparing the risks for this type of flight with the risks to driving your car or walking outside is mixing apples and oranges...unless you drive your car on a snowy day at 90MPH.

 

Should he be reported to the FAA for this? Dunno, but I think that he would be hard pressed to say that if he had an engine failure as he approached the bridge or what looked like pipelines across the river, that he would be able to maneuver the helicopter as to not cause damage to them (FAR 91.119(d)). Yes, I flew low-level in the military all the time, but that was what we were trained to do. Unless the pilot flying the video is ex-military, I would bet that no-one trained him/her to do this. If he had to make a sudden hard banked turn to avoid a birdstrike and had not been properly trained for low-level flight such as this, then I think that he would wind up being another accident report for me to read on the NTSB website. Even if he is a high time R22 pilot, if he hasn't been properly trained to fly in this regime, then he is an accident waiting to happen. At times in the video he appears to be 5-10'AGL. Can any of you tell me without looking it up, at what angle of bank in an R22 does the blades become lower than the lowest skid? How many of you that think this video looks neat are skilled enough to make a hard banked turn at that altitude without a blade hitting the ground? This is one reason that we had a 50' floor when flying low-level (not to be confused with NOE). Also, the angle of bank when the H-60 blades are the lowest point on the helicopter was a common question from an examiner during a tactical checkride.

 

Looking at the video, this was being flown from the left seat. Was this a low time instructor showing off for his/her student? Was it two high time ag pilots out for a joy ride? Not sure, but my one big question is would this pilot have been flying in this manner if the video camera was not there? If the answer is "No," then he shouldn't have been flying this way just because the camera was there. If this was nothing more than a joy ride and there was an accident, and the video was recovered, I think that the media would have had a field day with this one and the industry as a whole would have suffered a black eye as a result.

 

If you need to be flying this way to complete the job, that is one thing, but even with as many hours as I have, I'd be hard pressed to justify me flying in this manner just for fun.

 

Just my two-cents...and I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

Doug

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in my opinion, if u think this video proves this pilot to be totally unsafe and unresponsible then u should have been a hot air balloon operator

 

 

So descending around 1500 fpm is by the book safe flying? Even if you were 20 feet off the ground, regardless of terrain at high speeds ...is the safest way that you could make this flight?

 

Pure and simple this guy is showing off. and showing off kills people every day...and the last damn bird you should be doing it in is the one with the least available power, and a teetering hinge rotor system....the R22.

 

Totally irresponsible flying. I only hope the passenger was also a helo pilot...at least then he would know the risks they were taking....

 

If any of you think that this was the safest route they could take, at the safest altitude, safest H/V then please send me a photocopy of your right thumbprint so we can properly identify your body, at least that will help give your families some closure.

 

 

Right on the mark HH60.

 

Bossman- yes suicide is illegal in most states, but doesnt get prosecuted very often. If you want to put yourself at risk, and you can insure that no one else gets hurt...go base jumping instead. I really dont want the safety and reputation of helicopter pilots affected, nor do I want to suffer the increase in insurance rates to pay for the burial.

 

Sorry to be so bleak..maybe I have just had to pull a few too many dead guys out of situations where they were "just having some fun". You try telling the guys wife he didnt make it a few times and your opinions may change.

 

Goldy

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There is no doubt about it, this flight does present increased exposure to risk. He could have got from A to B by flying 500' in a straight line! Instead he took the low level route. Increased risk.

 

But how much risk? That's what we don't know. Of course, there are 'fixed' risks. Wires, engine failure etc..etc.. It's the degree of the other risks that we don't know from the video. This guy may be a 10000 hour stunt pilot. Or he may have flown that course 100 times before. He may have done a high recon of the route just 2 minutes before.

 

So to pass judgement on the degree of his risk exposure just from the video is somewhat naiive.

 

Next debate: Was this un-necessary? Well, that depends on the pilot's judgement of the rewards vs risk. Again, we don't know for sure what his rewards were and everyone is different.

 

My suspicion is that his rewards are limited to the 'thrills and excitement', and the good feelings he gets from those. We hope the passenger is getting the same thrill out of the ride too. There may be a need to prove his flying ability to himself...or even to the passenger. Lastly, they have a video to take home

 

PERSONALLY, I could not justify those risks against those rewards. So PERSONALLY, my opinion is that this flight is un-necessary risk. We all agree that un-necessary risk is stupid.

 

But I stress that is my personal opinion. I have done all sorts of gnarly things just for pleasure...its just that now, reward I get from the pleasure is dwindling.

 

There is one problem though, and that's this.

 

Almost inevitably, these videos are filmed from the right hand seat. I CAN'T KNOW FOR SURE, but that would suggest to me that this is probably a training flight. 'Experienced' pilot in left hand seat...when does that happen other than in training?

 

IF this was a training flight, then I absolutely think this is UNNECESSARY risk, poor instructional technique and possibly reportable as a violation of 91.13 But I stress, I DON'T KNOW the circumstances.

 

 

In conclusion, I'm saying is that the flight is an increased risk. But was it condemable? Not necessarily. It didn't appear to violate 91.119. We don't know the pilot's skill and experience. Risk exposure is something we face each day. As Bossman says, this sort increased risk exposure is common and often necessary in this industry.

 

I'm saying, I would not take this flight...now...but in the past I have done things which many would say was unnecessary risk. (100m dives on CCR for example). Often it was calculated risk weighed against a purpose...e.g research diving...Sometimes it was for pleasure. I used to gain pleasure from adreanalin rushes....but as I understand better the risks, and as I do more, the balance changes. Now the risks outweigh the pleasure.

 

Lastly, IF THIS WAS TRAINING, then I think it was very irresponsible. It does not suggest prudent Role Modelling.

 

Joker

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He was in an autorotation for sure. (High ROD, about 70kias no manifold pressure. I think you can even hear the power come back in). Recovering over the water at about 5,000' msl, not so smart. But I don't know the guy or the type of flight so I'm going to LET IT GO and watch the next video.

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So how do you guys feel about the people who perform in air shows. the firebirds, or blue angels of helicopters, flying irradically, upside down, flipping, hammer heads, flying in formation. this is very dangerous, eventhough these pilots are very well trained and experienced, this is a greater risk than just flying a heli.

 

man, I don't know where you draw the line, cause if you even go to the airshow, you are taking a bigger risk, even if they are 500 ft from the flight line. what happens if the helicopter goes out of control, or loses the tail?????? There is never any question of which way is more safe, or why does he need to scale the water that close. Every video that is put on VR, and I mean every video, everybody wants to jump on to it and battle why that pilot was wrong, or how he could have flown safer, or why whatever that pilot did is very unsafe and is not setting an example for everyone.

 

I think it is up to the CFI to teach the students what is safe and what is not, it is up to the examiner and the faa books to tell each student what is safe. then it is the students job to know what the limitations are of the helicopter and what is safe or not. When to fly and when not too fly, the students should be well informed going through their training so when these video's are posted here, everyone can just sit back and enjoy them, watch them and just let them go. I mean, who cares if he was in an auto during decent, who cares what the retreating blade speed was or what side he was flying the machine in, how fast or how low he was going, how close he got to the bridge.......

 

The real thing that matters is during this flight, the pilot was in complete control of his machine as the video shows and he was aware of the terrain as he dodged the bridge, and he did not wreck the helicopter during the flight as the video shows. Was there a safer way to fly. YES but he choose not too and who cares. If you don't like his flying or teaching, don't fly with him. Whoever posted this video on VR was not intending it to be used in future training, nor did he care about the physics envolved in this perticular flight. Anybody knows this type of flight is reserved for experienced pilots only, just because I watch people doing crazy stuff in their airplanes at the airshow, does not mean I am going to jump in mine and try these tricks or stunts. It just takes some common sense. Common sense tells me this was not the safest flight and I should not try this at home......

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Goldy,

I do not know your experience or situation. It does not sound to me like you were military trained. You evidently are not a risk taker. I have done the base jumping, trill did not last long enough. I can make the helicopter experience last until the fuel gets low and then go for more. Don't you worry yourself about my funeral expenses, my ashes will be scattered over our hangers, from a low level helicopter. This is the way that I have lived my life. If you read about me becoming a smoking hole in the earth, don't let it worry you.

I was having fun doing what I love. Sorry about the insurance rate increase, it seems like that goes up anyway. Like I said to start, don't know you, don't know what you do, I do know that as long as I'm able, I will fly my helicopters as I see fit. To be able to do this, is what I fought for.

Mike

 

dlo,

You are right on track.

Mike

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With about 5 minutes of searching the Internet, you can find the owners name, address and ratings. Then you can contact him directly with your concerns. :)

 

In my opinion the most dangerous piece of equipment ever invented was the video camera.....

 

Want to have something go wrong, just have someone around with a video camera :huh:

 

It just takes some common sense. Common sense tells me this was not the safest flight and I should not try this at home......

 

I totally agree... But I've found that Common Sense is almost impossible to "teach" People either have it or they don't..... Not just in Aviation, life in general

 

Fly Safe

Clark B)

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Doug,

When it is just me by myself I do this quite often, just for fun. No danger to people or property on the ground.

Mike

 

Mike,

 

Don't get me wrong, low-level is my favorite part of flying. My concern would be if this was a low time pilot showing off for the camera. Even high time guys have been killed showing off for the camera. When I was in the F-4, Tactical Air Command prohibited cameras from being carried by aircrews in the cockpit. This was due in part to pilots being preoccupied because of the camera, part due to pilots showing off for the camera, and in part due to a fatal mid-air collision in an A-7 fourship formation flight. The pilot of an A-7 was rejoining on the formation when he ran into the formation. The accident board determined that this was due to the fact that the visual cues were not correct because the lens made the other aircraft appear farther away than what they really were.

 

 

in my opinion, if u think this video proves this pilot to be totally unsafe and unresponsible then u should have been a hot air balloon operator

 

Helliboy,

 

If this was a 200 hour CFI out with someone on an introductory lesson would you feel the same? If this was a 200 hour CFI out with someone on an introductory lesson and it ended in a fatal accident would you feel the same? If this was a 10,000 hour ag pilot and the flight ended in a fatal accident would you feel the same? If you owned the R22 and it was a low time CFI working for you and putting your aircraft and business at risk would you feel the same?

 

If this was a low time CFI working for me, he'd be looking for the unemployment office real damn quick, and he would find that his claim would be rejected based on his actions as his firing would be justified. Just something to think about for all you low time CFI's that are thinking that this type of flying would be fun. How would your employer feel about it and how much longer would you have your job is your boss found out that you were doing flights such as this with their helicopter?

 

Just my two-cents.

 

Doug

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in my opinion, if u think this video proves this pilot to be totally unsafe and unresponsible then u should have been a hot air balloon operator

 

 

I have flown in ballons a few times,,, draggin' the basket thru the tree-tops,,,,, dipping it in a pond,,,,, some of them baloon pilots are crazy & like to have fun too ya know ! (BTW, i'm not a baloon pilot)

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In Doug's response to Heliboy above, I do agree with him somehow, this is all the truth in how I would feel if I owned the heli, or my CFI was doing these things.. Intresting when you look at saftey in a different view. So I agree with some points of the saftey and disagree with others.

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Doug,

I started my reply to this thread with the statement that if this was someone that had the training, experience, and knowledge of the terrain, I had no problem with the flight. The pilot looks to have a camera operator with him. This lets the pilot fly the aircraft. When we do pipeline patrol and leak detection, it is always a two man mission. The lines in our part of the country are hard to find and the right-of-ways are not always the best maintained. The second seat works the computers and navigates. The pilot flies.

Mike

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