Realistic Dream?

[fry]

Okay, now that's pessimistic.

 

I met a guy a few weeks ago who trained with SSH. Says it was very good training, but if he had to do it over again he probably wouldn't because it was a bit pricey, and that was at the $50K price. But he's a CFII now, part-time because he has another good job to help pay off the $500 monthly payments for the remaining 13 years. But he's building hours and hopes to fly for a living eventually. In the meantime he seems to be enjoying himself.

 

Maybe the "poor slobs" part was a bit harsh...but...what you describe is what would be expected. At this point those who have actually made it through SSH's program are those who got in when the price was much less than it is now (and still he thought it was "pricey" at $50k...interesting). In SSH's early days...2 or 3 years ago...the price was right and interest rates were reasonable (they just didn't have enough aircraft). And he has yet to make the leap from instructing to making a living as a pilot.

 

At monthly payments of about $500 a month his interest rate is about 8.75%. Not currently the situation though. Now $70k at 11% to 14% is something to be pessimistic about.

[garvey]

this is a great thread............. I like the fry view.....depressing but real world. The question I have is if that Georgia school is worth checking out . After all the bullshit fees, and whatever....what will it cost to come out as a Cfii at GA as opposed to a different school (private) . As long as we are on the subject . Whats up to prove your residency !? does Georgia have a state income tax!? thanks Garve

[ADRidge]

i'm a newbie posting but i've been reading for months. it's too bad for those of us just starting that the guys who have already been thru this successfully are all out there flying and too busy to post positive stories! I want to hear from someone who has really DONE this with financing and is working off the debt load, however painfully.

Well, when I start in january, I'll relate my experience. I've been saving every penny I can though, so it doesn't look like I'll have to finance the entire 50k. It's looking more like 20-30k for me, but that's with two jobs and a pretty cheap place to live with no tv.

[heligirl03]

You're not hearing from them because there aren't any. This boom in mass marketed financed flight training has only really taken off in the last three years...with Silver State and KeyBank. There are probably just not all that many that have actually gone on to paying jobs beyond instructing. Also, when the boom started interest rates were lower and Silver State was offering its get-em-in-the-door pricing for its program; $43.5k. So if you do hear from someone they will probably be relating an experience that will be nowhere near what yours will be if you're starting now at $70k and 11% - 14%. I can't imagine you'll hear from the poor slobs that are on the hook for $65k - $70k because they don't want to talk about paying for training...instead of a house...for a job they will probably never get.

 

 

well, i'm not interested in SSH, and I don't know why that's always the example since everything posted about them is disparaging. fry, did you have a bad experience there? maybe i haven't found the thread that explains the cause for your devil's advocacy. and why will these "poor slobs" never get a job? How does the cost of training affect whether or not they get a job? I don't think $70K is the average, I think it's the most popular quote though. these are just questions, not meant to offend. trying to keep the information flowing so if you have some answers please share!

 

Here's my 2cents re: full financing. Make no payments on your loan during training, make interest-only payments during teaching ($500), even if your first turbine tour job pays $2000/mo (including a per diem) if you have subsidized housing and not much in the way of other bills (cell phone, etc) you should be able to make a $900/mo loan payment and scrape by to your 1500hrs (that's still $1100/mo surplus and you're not paying rent!). Then starting pay in the Gulf ~$50k today, work a few years living the same austere lifestyle, you should be able to make a substantial dent in your loan if not actually pay it off. No one said it was easy, and you definitely have to stick to your plan. Teach days and work a few evenings. That's why I posted in the first place, I want to hear what people are actually DOING. I mean, SOMEONE is out there training with financing...

 

ok. now everyone weigh in on my idea...

[John90290]

Think of it this way, if you actually had 65k in your bank account, for you youngsters, more money than you've ever had or even seen in real life, would you still walk up to a flight school and say "Here, instead of buying a house, investing the cash into a business or going to college, I’d like to exchange this chunk of money for the slim possibility of earning an average of 30k per year over the next 5 years."

 

Maybe you would and I’m wrong but you should think about it , where’s the fire? Why not take a few years, get a degree, save up the cash and then train? If can’t save $500 bucks a month now what makes you think you can pay that off making $15 and hour in 18 months?

 

Or maybe I’m just jealous because Key Bank didn’t exist when I was 23

 

Just something to think about, you’re young time is on your side

[garvey]

Welllllllll , I guess I will have to play the Old MAn of the Sea and share my wisdom . I am 43.....and I have a few degrees...which cost me $$$$ with no guarantee of a job, but i went to school anyways . My ex-girl friend was the Financial officer for students at Brown University in Rhode Island . You know how much that school costs a year------ 40,000 plus other costs . That is @200,000 give or take----with no promise of a job iether . Education ain't cheap . However , NO education is a lot more exspensive . If you want a goal to happend you got to suck it up sometimes . But , always have a skill you can fall back on if you can such as carpentry or brick laying or being an electrician . Those are skills which will always be in demand...........and you can't fail your medical with them iether . ------- GARVEY

[heligirl03]

Think of it this way, if you actually had 65k in your bank account, for you youngsters, more money than you've ever had or even seen in real life, would you still walk up to a flight school and say "Here, instead of buying a house, investing the cash into a business or going to college, I’d like to exchange this chunk of money for the slim possibility of earning an average of 30k per year over the next 5 years."

 

Maybe you would and I’m wrong but you should think about it , where’s the fire? Why not take a few years, get a degree, save up the cash and then train? If can’t save $500 bucks a month now what makes you think you can pay that off making $15 and hour in 18 months?

 

Or maybe I’m just jealous because Key Bank didn’t exist when I was 23

 

Just something to think about, you’re young time is on your side

 

 

Well, I'm 29, I have a full on bachelor's degree in biochemistry, I've done corporate research, I've worked in outdoor/eco tourism, restaurants, etc etc, and after 10yrs of scraping by while trying to find my passion in life I was finally lucky enough to get stung hard by the helibug. Not that I don't value all of my experience, but frankly, I'm just glad I found a passion at 30 and not 10yrs from now, or even found it at ALL and it's actually a viable career! I have basic financial responsibilities (phone, rent, car ins, gas, food, cc) and only my canine copilot to look out for. Never had a mortgage 'cause I've moved around to try new things and by now I'm pretty proficient at "living like a student". I imagine another 5 or 6yrs of this won't kill me and I'll finally be doing something I love to wake up to every day.

 

Now, for those guys hovering around 20, if you know you want to fly I would not suggest "going to college". Been there, done that, if you want to fly don't waste $$ on an education in the wrong field. College is overrated as a cure-all. "Just go to college, you'll figure it out". Umm, not quite. What you WILL end up with is a pile of loans, a home, a family, and a big fat mid-life crisis. I imagine the guys flying desks M-F 9-5 and paying a $1500/mo mortgage and wishing they were flying ANYTHING else far outnumber the guys flying in the Gulf wishing they had a desk job and a house instead of a $900mo loan payment. Bottomline, you just can't have it all. Things that are worth it take sacrifice and compromise. You can fly a S76/AS350/R44/WHATEVER everyday OR drive your shiny new Dodge truck back and forth to the office and hope your family will give you one Saturday this month to play with your friends. If you're really just 20yo, I would work your butt off for the next 3yrs and save the cash for flight school. I mean, you can make nice $$ in construction and live on 30% of your income and save the rest and have $60K+ in 3yrs. And you'll still be under 25. And you won't pay the godawful interest I'm about to sign up for.

 

Sorry if my tone sounds aggravated. I've been swimming in these thoughts for YEARS and finally found my way up for air.

[John90290]

Why even go to high school? Oh yeah, it's required.

 

This month's heli-ops has a great article on the guys flying for Southern California Edison- pilot qualifications for a job-3000 hours pic, 500 in type, and a college degree.

[fry]

Well, I'm 29, I have a full on bachelor's degree in biochemistry, I've done corporate research, I've worked in outdoor/eco tourism, restaurants, etc etc, and after 10yrs of scraping by while trying to find my passion in life I was finally lucky enough to get stung hard by the helibug.

 

And what makes you think you will like the "working" part of being a working pilot any more than you liked the job of biochemist or eco tourism? I don't mean to diss you personally. You're unattached and appear to be willing to live with the discomfort of the low pay, loan payments and relocations so it's your choice.

 

But...this "passion in life" and "live yur dream stuff" is just so much marketing BS. It's a job. You're only going to be in the air for a fraction of your forty hours a week. The working conditions can be less than optimal, the opportunities within the job description "pilot" are limited and competitive and, the salary caps at a relatively low level for the investment required.

 

So it's a job. But if you decide you don't like it you're still going to have the monthly loan payments.

 

If you really want to maintain a passion for flying don't do it for a living. Do what you do well to earn a paycheck and spend it on what you love doing.

[Gerhardt]

Thank you, John. After reading Heligirl's last post....

 

Damn, Fry...sometimes we're oil and water and other times you write what I'm thinking.

 

I used to get pissed off with people complaining that they got a college degree and felt that they were owed a good-paying and interesting job. Now I get pissed off with pilots feeling like they're owed a job because they earned their CPL. The degree or CPL/CFI with IR won't get you a job. But it might keep doors from slamming in your face. Look at them as minimum requirements, not entitlements.

 

Heligirl, I know you probably didn't mean to be so insulting, but I happen to know that there are a handful of guys around here that are similar to me. I'm 41, have a pretty good day job and a great family. I've flown small fixed-wing on my PPL for fifteen years and it was just a couple of years ago that I became enamored with helicopters. You're right in that not a day goes by that I don't wish I was flying instead of working where I am. But the enjoyment I get from my family makes everything else a distant second. I'm finishing up my CPL now and will then start on CFI, hopefully to do some instructing in another year or so. Life doesn't have to be 'do it all now, or never'.

 

When my kids are older, if they're interested in flying I'll help them get their PPL, CPL, etc. WHILE THEY ARE IN SCHOOL. College is a given. If you don't think it's important now, you will later.

[ADRidge]

While I'm in a situation not unlike heligirl's, I do think that it's good to have a college degree. I've got one, but mine was a history degree. I thought I wanted to teach, but then I realized I could barely stand my classmates at the university level, nevermind teaching elementary school or high school. A college degree is always a good thing to put on a resume.

 

Also, heligirl, do you remember how many times you changed your major? I changed mine five times. I don't think there are too many people at 20 who know for sure what they want to do. I do, but I've been through a bit more than your garden variety 22 year old fresh out of college (and I don't mean killer frat parties). Also, while you're in college, if you decide you don't want to major in Business Management or Chemistry or whatever, no big deal. You may lose a semester's worth of higher level credits, but all you have to do is fill out some forms and maybe start taking classes in a different building. Your money still goes to the same place. If you're in flight school and realize it's not what you want to do, you're a bit farther up that creek without an effective means of propulsion. I feel a college education (with whatever loans you may end up having) is a good backup in case you end up deciding flying isn't what you want to do and you're stuck as Sallie Mae's lapdog for the next 20 years.

[heligirl03]

While I'm in a situation not unlike heligirl's, I do think that it's good to have a college degree. I've got one, but mine was a history degree. I thought I wanted to teach, but then I realized I could barely stand my classmates at the university level, nevermind teaching elementary school or high school. A college degree is always a good thing to put on a resume.

 

Also, heligirl, do you remember how many times you changed your major? I changed mine five times. I don't think there are too many people at 20 who know for sure what they want to do. I do, but I've been through a bit more than your garden variety 22 year old fresh out of college (and I don't mean killer frat parties). Also, while you're in college, if you decide you don't want to major in Business Management or Chemistry or whatever, no big deal. You may lose a semester's worth of higher level credits, but all you have to do is fill out some forms and maybe start taking classes in a different building. Your money still goes to the same place. If you're in flight school and realize it's not what you want to do, you're a bit farther up that creek without an effective means of propulsion. I feel a college education (with whatever loans you may end up having) is a good backup in case you end up deciding flying isn't what you want to do and you're stuck as Sallie Mae's lapdog for the next 20 years.

 

 

well, i made one major degree change in college. from a BA in Humanistic Studies (read: a little bit of everything) to a BS in Biochemistry. I greatly enjoy science and technology and I was convinced that a career in research would afford me the lifestyle to pursue my hobbies and that would make it worth it. Two years into this "career" I was more miserable than I have ever been to date; job security, financial stability, etc etc, complicated sounded job, were most definitely not worth the sacrifice of dreading my life's work. And that was several years and many adventures ago. I agree that I am much better equipped than your avg 22yo, after even just 10yrs of independent living experience, to make this commitment and believe that I will be happy with my decision 15yrs from now. All I need to do is look at my youngest sibling, 20, completely lost at a very prestigious university with every opportunity imaginable right outside the door. But then again, I recommended deferring acceptance a year to taste the world a bit. My parents disagreed.

 

I agree on the point of not losing quite so much when you change your mind midstream in college. Maybe a better suggestion for the 20yo guys out there is to pursue an aviation degree. I have a friend at UAA (Anchorage, AK) in a 4yr program. Then you don't completely corner yourself as "pilot" with nothing to fall back on should you change your mind about the day-to-day grind of flying. They just have to not be so shortsighted as to want to train and fly NOW. Give it the 2-4yrs so you have a back-up plan, AND you can get way better financial support through federal loans for degree programs. Even free money, depending on where you are and where you're going.

 

As for me, I'm sticking with my plan. I have lived and worked with helis and pilots and as a whole, they are happier with their lot than everyone else around them. They never wish they were the ones in the back offices, it's always the other way around, regardless of the garbage pay at the bottom of the ladder.

 

Like we keep quoting and forgetting, "if it were easy, everyone would do it". I don't think anyone here is expecting a free ride or to command Air Force One at 3000hrs. It's a hard pattern, but if you want it you'll get it, and I don't say that lightly just to make everyone feel better. Trust me, I'm not having an easy go of it either.

 

I do have one last thought. A friend of mine who is my age and has around 4000hrs (first turbine job 6yrs ago) and does all sorts of cool contract stuff, has talked about wishing he finished university. I believe the quote was "wasting his brain". However much he loves flying, he peaked quickly and now is wondering what else is out there. If you put your nose to it and pay back your loans, those now 20yo out there could go to university at 30 if they decide after 4000hrs that they're bored or unfulfilled. Bottomline, either way there will be sacrifice and compromise. Hindsight will always be 20/20 and wisdom only comes with age and experience, in whatever order you choose to pursue things.

 

WHAT WOULD YOU ATTEMPT TO DO IF YOU KNEW YOU COULD NOT FAIL?

[ADRidge]

I agree that for the most part, pilots seem to be happier with their jobs than others. I think most all of us can agree that a college degree is a good thing, whether you get it at 22 or 52. A person always needs a backup plan, in case life throws you a curve. I think that more so in this industry than most, the overwhelming majority of the folks that end up as CFII's or ATPs want it alot more than the folks that go through four years and end up with a BBA or a BA or what have you. I don't mean that as an insult to those with a BBA or BA, or even a BS in whatever field they chose, it's just my observations from having gone through the university system.

 

Anyway, this is all about whether it's worth it to make the sacrifice and get that huge loan. I say it is, and I think almost everyone else here does as well. If you can hold off for a while and save, that might be a very wise thing to do. If you can't, well, carpe helicopter. :-P

[garvey]

well, i made one major degree change in college. from a BA in Humanistic Studies (read: a little bit of everything) to a BS in Biochemistry. I greatly enjoy science and technology and I was convinced that a career in research would afford me the lifestyle to pursue my hobbies and that would make it worth it. Two years into this "career" I was more miserable than I have ever been to date; job security, financial stability, etc etc, complicated sounded job, were most definitely not worth the sacrifice of dreading my life's work. And that was several years and many adventures ago. I agree that I am much better equipped than your avg 22yo, after even just 10yrs of independent living experience, to make this commitment and believe that I will be happy with my decision 15yrs from now. All I need to do is look at my youngest sibling, 20, completely lost at a very prestigious university with every opportunity imaginable right outside the door. But then again, I recommended deferring acceptance a year to taste the world a bit. My parents disagreed.

 

I agree on the point of not losing quite so much when you change your mind midstream in college. Maybe a better suggestion for the 20yo guys out there is to pursue an aviation degree. I have a friend at UAA (Anchorage, AK) in a 4yr program. Then you don't completely corner yourself as "pilot" with nothing to fall back on should you change your mind about the day-to-day grind of flying. They just have to not be so shortsighted as to want to train and fly NOW. Give it the 2-4yrs so you have a back-up plan, AND you can get way better financial support through federal loans for degree programs. Even free money, depending on where you are and where you're going.

 

As for me, I'm sticking with my plan. I have lived and worked with helis and pilots and as a whole, they are happier with their lot than everyone else around them. They never wish they were the ones in the back offices, it's always the other way around, regardless of the garbage pay at the bottom of the ladder.

 

Like we keep quoting and forgetting, "if it were easy, everyone would do it". I don't think anyone here is expecting a free ride or to command Air Force One at 3000hrs. It's a hard pattern, but if you want it you'll get it, and I don't say that lightly just to make everyone feel better. Trust me, I'm not having an easy go of it either.

 

I do have one last thought. A friend of mine who is my age and has around 4000hrs (first turbine job 6yrs ago) and does all sorts of cool contract stuff, has talked about wishing he finished university. I believe the quote was "wasting his brain". However much he loves flying, he peaked quickly and now is wondering what else is out there. If you put your nose to it and pay back your loans, those now 20yo out there could go to university at 30 if they decide after 4000hrs that they're bored or unfulfilled. Bottomline, either way there will be sacrifice and compromise. Hindsight will always be 20/20 and wisdom only comes with age and experience, in whatever order you choose to pursue things.

 

WHAT WOULD YOU ATTEMPT TO DO IF YOU KNEW YOU COULD NOT FAIL?

 

 

I would probally trade places with Hugh Heffner..........but thats me .I know one thing for sure . The average person Grows up in school . Particularly if you live in the dorms . You learn to get along with people ...or you perish . Life is about dealing with people and being exposed to different experiences.....and college is one of them . Even if get a BS or BA and hate your degree.....guess what- its a spring board to a law degree or MBA or whatever Masters you want . You can not knock college . Anything you learn is a good thing . It moulds you as a person . Even if it does not seem like it .

 

An education lets you expand your horizons . One of the best things I heard was from a big time CEO.......he said the best connections you make in life are with the people you meet around the keg . Connections are evrything in life . It is not what you know its who you know !

 

My 3 cents----------------------------- Garvey

[dlo]

well, I learned a few things in college, but one quote that sticks out in my mind all of the time is " education is something that no one can ever take away from you."" you can lose your job, wife, car , house, and pilots license, but the education you gained from college, nobody can ever take away from you.....

[garvey]

well, I learned a few things in college, but one quote that sticks out in my mind all of the time is " education is something that no one can ever take away from you."" you can lose your job, wife, car , house, and pilots license, but the education you gained from college, nobody can ever take away from you.....

good point.............. Every thing you learn is good.......like tapping a keg and how to undo those difficult bra straps.......... which of course is immoral----------- garve

[RotorWeed]

well, I learned a few things in college, but one quote that sticks out in my mind all of the time is " education is something that no one can ever take away from you."" you can lose your job, wife, car , house, and pilots license, but the education you gained from college, nobody can ever take away from you.....

 

You forgot medical too..............

 

RDW