R22 forsale question

[dlo]

1991 ROBINSON R22 BETA • $49,500 • FOR SALE • 2010 TT, M1 Loran, Rotor Brake, VC Compass, Cabin Heat, Engine Primer, Candidate for Field Overhaul • Contact Tom Youngblom - located Pillager, MN USA • • Posted November 14, 2006

 

Hello, newbie has a question, would this be a good deal or not.?? basically how much is this heli worth after you will need to over haul it at 2200 hours... also what about the 12 year rule also??? does that apply, would you need to overhaul extra parts... so what do you guys think. this seems like a low price, but it is a 91 and the time is almost up. what about m1 Loran????, Rotor brake, VC compass....

[Goldy]

1991 ROBINSON R22 BETA • $49,500 • FOR SALE • 2010 TT, M1 Loran, Rotor Brake, VC Compass, Cabin Heat, Engine Primer, Candidate for Field Overhaul • Contact Tom Youngblom - located Pillager, MN USA • • Posted November 14, 2006

 

Hello, newbie has a question, would this be a good deal or not.?? basically how much is this heli worth after you will need to over haul it at 2200 hours... also what about the 12 year rule also??? does that apply, would you need to overhaul extra parts... so what do you guys think. this seems like a low price, but it is a 91 and the time is almost up. what about m1 Loran????, Rotor brake, VC compass....

 

 

 

It doesnt mention that it has the new -4 blades...so thats another 25K or so...on top of the 140K or so for a rebuild...so you will have 160-165 or so for a new ship that you dont know much about. You can buy several ships right now for sale...that have 005 hours since rebuild for 150K or so...personally doesnt seem like much of a deal..plus you may wait a few months to get the rebuild work done....and your money is just sitting there while you wait. Most timed out R22's seem to go for 30-40K depending on options...and recently one sold for 45K with the new blades...

[mechanic]

dlo,

 

When I renewed my R22 POH I asked RHC a few questions on rebuild/overhaul. RHC is getting 45K on the 12 year and 115K on the 2200 hr. The 12 year prob is not a good option for this heli since in 190 hrs the 2200 hr will be due. Though, you would not need all the 2200 hr parts either because the 12 year inspection was done. Thats also IF the heli is in very good condition and no corrosion or other damage is found, thats EXTRA $$$$$$$$, plus either the 12yr or 2200 hr cost. I have the break down on parts that RHC gave me, but its quite a few pages for both options far as parts go and I don't have a scanner and it would just waste a bunch of band width here anyways. You could call RHC and talk to them about rebuilds/12 and get there take on that aircraft. I was checking on an older R22 when I asked.

 

 

 

Later

[Guest pokey]

Remember one thing "there is no such thing as a cheep helicopter"

 

"if deal sounds too good to be true--it prolly is"

 

OK, i know that was 2 (failing that dam 2nd grade arithmatic is gonna haunt me forever) (spellin' klass two dammit! )

Edited November 15, 2006 by pokey

[dlo]

im just wondering, not like im going out tommarro to pick a heli up... so what i am hearing with this ship, is that it is overpriced for a timed out robbie, with many unexpected things that could come up with it in the overhaul....

 

when looking to buy a heli, price is what probably matters most to people... I know there is no such thing as a cheap helicopter but eveyone wants the most for their money. so i was just wondering if anyone thought this was a good heli or not.

 

next question, is this a good deal, could it be a good deal, or is this something to stay away from????

 

also, would anyone buy this heli for 40k or would you rather buy a newer r22 with 1000 hours for 140-150 k???? just wondering your opinion on this heli compared to other used robbies??? thank you dlo

[Pogue]

also, would anyone buy this heli for 40k or would you rather buy a newer r22 with 1000 hours for 140-150 k???? just wondering your opinion on this heli compared to other used robbies??? thank you dlo

 

I guess that would depend on how comfortable you were with the bird's history. All things told I would rather get the high time helicopter and do the overhaul - now I know I've got a rebuilt engine, time limited parts have been changed out, etc. So if it's been operated overloaded or overstressed I'm less likely to get an unpleasant suprise down the road. If, on the other hand I knew the owner and history of the AC I might not have a problem with buying it after the O/H.

[dlo]

I guess that would depend on how comfortable you were with the bird's history. All things told I would rather get the high time helicopter and do the overhaul - now I know I've got a rebuilt engine, time limited parts have been changed out, etc. So if it's been operated overloaded or overstressed I'm less likely to get an unpleasant suprise down the road. If, on the other hand I knew the owner and history of the AC I might not have a problem with buying it after the O/H.

 

 

very true, I hear both sides of it.... are the overhauls in the r22 different everytime. what are the variables in overhauling a timed out helicopter????? what is the general cost of an overhaul, is there a general cost???? would you guys buy this heli or not???? if not what else would you buy under 150k....

[Guest pokey]

if not what else would you buy under 150k....

 

I'de suggest an older (1980's) C model 300.

[67november]

or a B47

[ADRidge]

I second the Bell 47 idea. I've seen a couple that were rebuilt, low TT for under 150k.

[rotor wing]

I second the Bell 47 idea. I've seen a couple that were rebuilt, low TT for under 150k.

 

I too would rather have a 300 than a robbie. Robbie is the one who funded the owner of the school that took the students money that I went to.

[flyby_heli]

I second The 300C idea.

 

Parts more readily available, machine still in production (actually an increasing number being produced). Technology proven since early sixties. Very reliable, loads of them flying around ("cheaper" parts).

 

Basically you have, as I can see it, 5-6 options.

 

Bell47: No doubt that this is a cool little machine. By many characterised as the helicopter that changed the industry. You can find some of those around the 100K mark. Downside is they are no longer in production so parts will be harder and harder (more and more expensive) to find, along with a mechanic that knows the machine.

 

R22: A lot of these flying around as you already know. However the 12 year and 2200 hour overhaul are very expensive. They are also the smallest and least comfortable helicopter in my opinion.

 

Hiller: Same as the bell 47....a workhorse! Not too many of them floating around on the market, so parts will be harder to find. A mechanic to work on them might be hard to find too.

 

Enstrom: Probably the most comfortable helicopter in this price range. Expensive to operate for flight training due to high maintenance costs, and higher fuel consumption than the rest. Turbo boosted engines are also not known to make TBO. Could get really expensive really quickly.

 

Schweizer (A,B,CB,CBI &C): Great little machine. Comfort-wise somwhere between R22 and Enstrom, same goes for operating costs. Lots of used parts around, lots of people who work on them. Been around since the early sixties. No real problem areas.

 

Homebuilt/Experimental: Don't even go there!!!

 

Happy hunting!

 

Ps.

Whatever you do....read the logs, do a prebuy, read the logs, testfly the machine, read the logs, have someone else look it over and don't forget to READ THE LOGS!!

Edited November 16, 2006 by flyby_heli

[Guest pokey]

great addition to the post flyby

 

and i agree------"thats the way it is"

 

altho you forgot ONE point that i like to bring up--the 269 is a "time-proven" design, (by the military) (oops, so is the 47 & the Hiller--but? no longer in production)

Edited November 16, 2006 by pokey

[mechanic]

I like the UH-12c, but wish the PIC seat wasn't in the middle and rebuilds were farther apart than 900 hrs. You can get a UH-12 refurb'd, and the Hiller website says you can get a new one. I am thinking Fort Wolters can't zero time the machine, but Hiller can zero time a refurb'd machine.

 

Fort Wolters Helicopters

Hiller Aircraft supplied 900 helicopters to the Army used as primary trainers.

 

I have a friend that used to be a civilian mechanic at Fort Wolters. He said the UH12 and TH55's are pretty simple and easy to work on. He told me they taught him how to hover them only so he could test them after maint. He is wanting me think about buying one and to take him up again one day. I told him that the tail gearbox on the 300 was about 14 G's and he nearly flipped, said there wasn't that many parts in one to be that high and they were simple. I was going by a 05' price list.

 

On the National VN Museum, there is a video that has Harrison Ford narrating and he says that the army pumped out 1000's of pilots each year for 10 years. I didn't realize that they trained that many per year back then. I knew it was a lot, but I didn't think it was that many. Thats not counting those that trained Civi. There may really be a shortage coming up with all the baby boomers retiring?

 

 

National VN Museum

Edited November 17, 2006 by mechanic

[dlo]

honestly, i see your guys points, very good reply. so question now is i like the idea of the robby or the 300cs.. both good machines, still in production.....

 

so what about overhauls between these two machines, would anyone want to buy a timed out machine??? either robby or 300c??? is this just too much work and too many unknowns to buy a timed out machine... should i really be looking at a 150 k machine, with maybe 1000 or so hours. would that seem to be the best way to go ... after of course reading the logs, doing the pre flights, and inspections...

 

i do not want to tackle really old machines, that are no longer in production and parts are harder and harder to come by... would everyone agree with that.???????

 

 

So if you were to buy a robby or 300c, would you buy the 50k one that needs overhaul, the 100k one that has 500 hours left or the 140-150 k one with about 1000 hours left???? which one has the most potential for best flight life and so on?????????

 

thank you guys, interesting to hear from pilots who have owned and operated them, including dumping money into them and overhauling them........

[flyby_heli]

My personal choice would be the 300 any day of the week.

 

On the R22 you have the mandatory high priced overhauls that you will not be able to avoid. On the 300 you have a bunch of timelifed components, but they will probably not time out at the same time....this way you don't have a 100,000 dollar overhaul but you have maybe 10 smaller replaces, this hurts the wallet way less!!! Also a lot of the overhauls are just recommended, not mandatory.

In addition you can go buy some used parts, mid-timed for a good price and spend even less money that way. A lot of guys also don't run their components completly out, but sell them with a little time left while they are still worth something.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, be sure to read the logs over and over! Component times remaining is pretty much what determines the value of the ship, at least on the 300. This is why you can see a 1973 be worth about the same as a 1998 model.....comparable times remaining.

 

Hope this helps.

[Scarab]

If you buy a timed out (2200) R-22, have it factory overhauled, 115K ?the machine will be dismantled inspected and sent down the assembly line between new machines. You get new paint, new glass, new blades, overhauled engine. Then you have a machine that's good for 2200 hours. I've seen one come back from overhaul and you wouldn't now it from a new one. Flew like a dream. Same owner bought it new ran it 2200 hrs, did factory overhaul kept flying it. You can also have a machine field overhauled little cheaper but no glass, no paint. As far as operating costs the 300 is a good proven design, burns more fuel, the staggered componets mean it is going to be in the shop more days per year for maint. Friend of mine takes care of a 300 and a 22 for a flight school. Your gonna spend that 115k on your 300 but you wont have to wait 12 years to do it. You also need to consider what you want to do with the machine. Travel, carry big people, fit in in a garage or shed with a 10' high by 8' door, or a 11' high and 26' wide door.

[500E]

Me its the 300 every time more capacity and margin for errors

Get a good experienced (300 ) licensed Mechanic to give it a good going over, money well spent, read the logs and if you don't know enough get him to explain them to you.

I think Pokey re built one for himself ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fly the dream fly 300\500

[Superman]

I think the R-22 is as close as you will come to a "cheap" to operate helicopter. If you are looking for a machine to just fly and build time in, then the 22 is a good machine.

I personally like the Schweizer better myself, but there is more routine maintenance required and the purchase price of most seems to be higher than the Robinsons.

I think you'll find that the Insurance will be your biggest expense with owning a helicopter, 8 to 10 k per year, more if you plan on training with it.

I know where you can get a nice Beta with 2 years / 1100 hours left before Overhaul

 

Fly Safe

Clark

[Guest 13snoopy]

You are not going to make it between annuals without spending $$ on the 300. That's a fact.

Fly the R22 and all you do between annuals is fill it up with gas and change the oil.

The 300 is a great heli and doesn't have the 12 year calendar issues like the R22 but it is gonna cost you more in maint. over it's lifetime because they simply have more routine maintainenece scheduled.

Ask a mechanic that works on both. See what he/she says. I believe they'll confirm this.

Edited November 17, 2006 by 13snoopy

[rotor wing]

You are not going to make it between annuals without spending $$ on the 300. That's a fact.

Fly the R22 and all you do between annuals is fill it up with gas and change the oil.

The 300 is a great heli and doesn't have the 12 year calendar issues like the R22 but it is gonna cost you more in maint. over it's lifetime because they simply have more routine maintainenece scheduled.

Ask a mechanic that works on both. See what he/she says. I believe they'll confirm this.

 

I do not like the fact that there are so many rules for robbies, like you have to have a certain number of hours to solo etc, although I can understand the reason. I also do not like having to pay for the safety course and waste 4 days. I heard that the pres of the school that I went to is behind all this. He is hungry for money, especially unsuspecting students.

[Guest pokey]

Get a good experienced (300 ) licensed Mechanic to give it a good going over, money well spent, read the logs and if you don't know enough get him to explain them to you.

I think Pokey re built one for himself ??

Fly the dream fly 300\500

 

Yip 500E, i have built & re-built quite a few, the 1st one i ever did was for myself & i still have it. YES ! dont even think about buying a 300 w/ out an experienced mechanic going over it, (won't be cheep--but $$ well spent)

 

 

 

 

You are not going to make it between annuals without spending $$ on the 300. That's a fact.

Fly the R22 and all you do between annuals is fill it up with gas and change the oil.

The 300 is a great heli and doesn't have the 12 year calendar issues like the R22 but it is gonna cost you more in maint. over it's lifetime because they simply have more routine maintainenece scheduled.

Ask a mechanic that works on both. See what he/she says. I believe they'll confirm this.

 

It depends on how many hours between annuals you fly either ship. Granted the 300 is a "maintenance hound", but if you keep up with it?---it wont bite you. I maintain a few of these ships, and have been for close to 20 years, & just to give ya a ballpark figure----a 300 hour/annual inspection w/ ALL the associated maintenance takes around 60-80 hours. IF you fly less than the 300 hours? you can make it "bi-annuals" so the "smaller" of the inspection is about 25 hours every other year.

 

Schweizer came out w/ a "new maintenace plan"---designed to make it not such a "hound".,, however i have not personally taken part in any of the new ones. Altho? i hear some ppls are taking the "new" maintenance plan & using it on the older ships----NOT sure if this is legal, so you may want to watch for this in the logs.

 

On the "flip-side", i have heard that some mechanics can do an annual inspection on a 22 in 8 hours, i never worked on a 22--so? i dont know if it's possible OR not. (altho i have worked on many Cessna, & Piper aircraft & can tell you for a fact, that i cannot do a proper annual on them in 8 hours--usually is more like 20-24 or so on say a 172)

[dlo]

so would you guys buy this heli or not. why would you buy it or why would you pass on it, for what else would you buy?????

[Guest pokey]

so would you guys buy this heli or not. why would you buy it or why would you pass on it, for what else would you buy?????

 

We all know that I wouldnt buy it ( because i am a 300 man ) BUT? putting that aside lets do the math:

 

ship+parts+overhaul+interest on yer $$+ferry cost & expenses & time for overhaul=resale value of ship? (then yer breakin' even)

 

The BIG question tho is: what do you intend to do w/ the ship? That may sway the answer. In any event, get accurate numbers & try not to forget about anything.

 

& dont put more into it than you can readily get back out.

[Mark Shelton]

Does aybody have thoughts on the Brantley, other than it being butt ugly?

 

Mark Shelton