Well, this sucks.

[XvX]

<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=8,0,0,0" width="460" height="345" align="middle"> Saw this on funnyjunk, although this isn't funny

[500pilot]

<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=8,0,0,0" width="460" height="345" align="middle"> Saw this on funnyjunk, although this isn't funny

 

 

Cant read it. The only thing that pops up is a bunch of script.

[Linc]

Is it this one? It is a CH-46 Sea Knight.

[dlo]

Is it this one? It is a CH-46 Sea Knight.

 

 

dude, isn't that crash like older than dirt, Ive seen that same one one thousand times,

I don't believe this is new, though it is a nice example video. now lets get into the oh so great saftey discussion. was this a safe video. could the pilot flew any safer.. what exactly did he do wrong. do you think we should report it to his commander??? why did he come in so hot. did he not look down before he landed????????

[AndrewT]

do you think we should report it to his commander???

 

I'm pretty sure the crew went down with the helicopter. He just catches one of his rear tires on that barrier and it acted as a fulcrum when he pulled in power to try to free himself.

Edited November 23, 2006 by AndrewT

[Linc]

dude, isn't that crash like older than dirt, Ive seen that same one one thousand times,

I don't believe this is new, though it is a nice example video. now lets get into the oh so great saftey discussion. was this a safe video. could the pilot flew any safer.. what exactly did he do wrong. do you think we should report it to his commander??? why did he come in so hot. did he not look down before he landed????????

This is that part of the discussion some pilots were referring to when they mentioned a job calling for something inherently dangerous, not like joyriding down a river or canal to make a video. There is no need for anyone to play Captain Obvious, something obviously went wrong.

 

It's curious to watch such a strong reaction to the negative opinions of the MD 500 video and have it carry over here.

 

This accident is Dec 99. 7 lives lost, I believe, and became the impetus for helicopter egress training for Marine grunts. MCAS Kaneohe Bay became one of, if not the first station to conduct helicopter egress training for leathernecks, internal to the Corps.

Edited November 23, 2006 by Linc

[joker]

CH-46 Sea Knight Crash

 

now lets get into the oh so great saftey discussion. was this a safe video. could the pilot flew any safer.. what exactly did he do wrong. do you think we should report it to his commander??? why did he come in so hot. did he not look down before he landed????????

 

Didn't even bother to download it....I've seen the video so many times.

 

DLO invites us to get into a discussion about this. So let's take him up on his slightly sarcastic opening and get into the nitty gritty of this crash.

 

I use this video as a teaching tool.

 

This was a training mission. It goes to show that even in 'benign' situations, things can go south very quickly.

 

I ask students to 'speculate' as to the cause of the crash. I normally don't agree with the usual 'post-crash speculation' that abounds these boards after a crash. However, there are so many 'discussion' points which can be used in a positive manner, that I do this. Whether right or wrong, I always manage to cover so many 'possible' scenarios that the student goes away having learnt something about helicopters and himself.

 

At least 7 marines lost their lives in this tragedy. This is real.

 

CNN - Missing Marines presumed dead after Pacific helicopter crash

 

Here are the names of those who perished:

SSGT. VINCENT A. SABASTEANSKI, 1ST FORCE RECON - CUMBERLAND, ME

 

SSGT. DAVID E. GALLOWAY, 1ST FORCE RECON - OREGON CITY, OR

 

SSGT. JEFFERY R. STARLING, 1ST FORCE RECON - SOUTH DAYTON, FL

 

HM1 JAY J. ASIS, 1ST FORCE - QUEZON CITY, PHILIPPINES

 

CPL. MARK A. BACA, 1ST FORCE RECON - JEFFERSON CITY, CO

 

GYSGT JAMES P PAIGE, JR, CREW CHIEF, HMM 166 - MIDDLESEX, NJ

 

SSGT. WILLIAM C. DAME, EOD, MSSG-15 - YUMA, AZ

There are many reasons why we SHOULD discuss this video and safety issues.

 

This unfortunate disaster (as so often is the case) paved the way for huge developments in areas such as Helicopter Underwater Egrees and Survival Techniques, the associated training, massive developments into the safety regulations....and a great deal more, which whether you like it or not, make us all safer.

 

 

Some forum discussion about the accident

 

 

So DLO prior to making sarcastic comments, think carefully. There is nothing wrong about "

 

now lets get into the oh so great saftey discussion. was this a safe video. could the pilot flew any safer.. what exactly did he do wrong. do you think we should report it to his commander??? why did he come in so hot. did he not look down before he landed????????"

 

Why not discuss safety issues, if it can help another pilot become a safer pilot.

 

Maybe, you should sit down with your instructor and discuss those very questions. You might learn a little about helicopters and yourself in the process.

 

DLO, I sometimes wonder if you are a little 'scared' by the fact that you are joining an industry where there are 'safety freaks', and 'boring old farts'. There is nothing wrong with discussing safety issues. There is a lot to be gained by discussing safety issues.

 

Do not shun those aspects of aviation. Don't even try to convince me that I am wrong to consider the safety issues of every video that I watch. I do, I will and I will learn from them. Whether I am right or wrong in my judgements, by being critical first, AT LEAST I WILL LEARN. After that, I will be in a position to decide whether something is 'cool' or whether I should 'report the pilot to the commander or not'.

 

Joker

 

P.S. This post is written under the influence of that amber nectar. However, I will not edit, as it probably reflects my true beliefs. If they hurt, then sorry. What you read (spelling and grammar errors) is what you get tonight!

 

Joker

[bossman]

Joker,

HOOOOO-RAH

Bossman

[dlo]

Joker,

HOOOOO-RAH

Bossman

 

 

joker,

 

well said, truthfull statement, I respectfully acdept your opinions. I did not mean any sarcasm to the men and women who serve our country so proudly, without them we might not be flying. I was only making a sarcastic point about how every video posted (not by me) turns into a heated, personal safety discussion and the whole post goes to hell and gets deleted.

 

I truley feel that accident videos , as this one is. should be discussed because there IS something to learn from them and can be looked at many different ways. Of course when watching a clip of an unknown pilot, helicopter, terrain, then making OPINIONS about it is just pointless and wrong.

 

when a helicopter goes down, something WENT wrong, but when someone is joyriding a heli, maybe even flying to his own ability, then lands safely and we just see a clip of that video. Nothing went wrong in the video, so there is nothing to discuss really, but everyone just points fingers and blames and post vin # and all of that other stupid crap...

[Linc]

Of course when watching a clip of an unknown pilot, helicopter, terrain, then making OPINIONS about it is just pointless and wrong.

 

when a helicopter goes down, something WENT wrong, but when someone is joyriding a heli, maybe even flying to his own ability, then lands safely and we just see a clip of that video. Nothing went wrong in the video, so there is nothing to discuss really, but everyone just points fingers and blames and post vin # and all of that other stupid crap...

Just because an accident didn't happen doesn't mean that things were done correctly, within the ability of the pilot, or that it was "just clean fun". The absence of evidence is not evidence, and the absence of an accident is not the evidence of safety.

 

I've cautioned quite a few of my junior pilots on their flying, not necessarily because what I observed them doing was wrong, bad, truly unsafe or something even other pilots weren't doing, but because the perception of what they were doing could end up causing them trouble, simply based on someone else's perception. Some things may not necessarily be wrong or illegal, but it may not be appropriate for the time and place the pilot finds themselves flying in. They sometimes feel that I'm a worry wart in regards to flying; however, I am one of the more aggressive pilots that I know, and I'm simply trying to help them get to enjoy this job for longer than just a moment's cheap thrill in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's a debt I owe to the senior pilots who mentored me as a junior pilot; there is always a judgment pronounced upon our decisions in aviation, and our decisions don't always just affect us or our passengers.

 

All that said, video cameras and "showing off" (or joyriding) are statistically a bad mix. I've seen a pilot lose his rating because of just such a river flight video, so I don't speak from ignorance on this subject. Bad enough when nothing happens and you only get a reputation, it's even worse when they serve to "tattle" on you and get you busted. In the instance I spoke of, nobody tattled (except for the video). The Man stumbled upon the video himself and submitted it for enforcement with his own opinion and recommendation.

 

P.S. The R-22 camera person scanned the N-number on the tail with the camera, and the 500 video has the name of the pilot in the credits. It's not like you had to look that hard for some of the information. Posting a video like those in a thread is enough to "rat out" the individuals. What is really happening is someone is seeking validation of their own opinion by others who might reach the same conclusions.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Linc

[Gomer Pylot]

The two most dangerous words in the English language: "Watch this!" Especially if the watcher has a video camera. Everyone has done stupid things, and surviving them doesn't mean they weren't stupid. Old farts like me got to be old farts because we were lucky enough to survive stupid acts, and learn from them. You can be smart enough to learn from us, or you can ignore us and learn the hard way. Your choice, dude.

[bossman]

I'm glad that I'm not the only old fart around here.

bossman

[dlo]

I am not defending these pilots who probably are flying unsafe. I am just saying that we really don't know if it was safe or not and to speculate is just talking out of our butts. when we see a crash on video, it is obvious that something went wrong, then it could be discussed. but when we just see a video clip of a low flying r22 and everyone jumps to conclusions and labels this pilot dangerous is just kind of stupid. Maybe he was counting fish, fisherman, looking for plugged water, looking for sludge and getting payed to do exactly what the video showed. Like we all saw, it didn't look like he was endangering the lives of anyone except him and the camera man. Or on the other hand, maybe he only had 100 hours and he rented the r22 and wanted to show off for his friend. WE just don't know the case. we don't know the pilots abilities either, ( maybe he is a stunt pilot) So for us to jump to conclusions and bash on this guy is just dumb. It is like making a bet, when you don't even know what you are betting on... It just doesn't make sense.

 

All I am saying, is I know flying is dangerous, I know I should not exceed my limitations, I know there are old farts out there. but talk about hot dogging in general, and make that a topic. but don't watch a video clip and make up a story and say that this pilot is dangerous.... Make sure you know the circumstances before jumping to conclusions or just labeling every flight you see on a video unsafe..... Not every video can be unsafe, and no pilot is perfect. Every pilot has plenty to still learn, so every video or flight you see could have been safer, but it wasnt' so just relax and let it go.....

 

when these videos are posted, they are strickly for entertainment and everyone knows what is probably dangerous flying and what is perfectly safe. But guess what, the boring flight videos are not going to be posted her cause everyone knows what safe flying looks like. everyone wants to see something off the wall and dangerous. something that looks cool. Nobody would watch a movie , if all of the reports came back saying this movie was very borring and just like this other boring video. People want excitement, that is what you are seeing on here and that is what gets peoples' attention. so lets all just relax and watch the video and leave it at that. lets not argue and get the topic closed, call each other names when opinions are only as good as the next guys opinion. but everyone is untitled to their own worthless opinion....

 

very well said, thank you dlo, you are so freakin cool, I wish everyone was as cool as you are!!!!

[blave]

everyone is untitled to their own worthless opinion....

 

So, um, why do we have forums to post to?

 

Once again DLO, you've completely lost me.

 

 

 

Still waiting for you to contribute something useful,

 

 

Dave Blevins

[Linc]

If speculation on unsafe actions is not allowed, then neither is speculation on "safe" actions, since all that is presented is visual evidence of the flight path of the helicopter.

 

If one opinion is no better than any other, and "all" are labeled worthless, then even the opinion that opines that all opinions are worthless...is worthless and should be disregarded.

[500E]

I am with you GP.

Watch this!!! scares the S**t out of me.

Had a close friend those were his last words to me.

 

 

 

 

Fly the dream fly 500

[nsdqjr]

I am not defending these pilots who probably are flying unsafe. I am just saying that we really don't know if it was safe or not and to speculate is just talking out of our butts. when we see a crash on video, it is obvious that something went wrong, then it could be discussed. but when we just see a video clip of a low flying r22 and everyone jumps to conclusions and labels this pilot dangerous is just kind of stupid. Maybe he was counting fish, fisherman, looking for plugged water, looking for sludge and getting payed to do exactly what the video showed. Like we all saw, it didn't look like he was endangering the lives of anyone except him and the camera man. Or on the other hand, maybe he only had 100 hours and he rented the r22 and wanted to show off for his friend. WE just don't know the case. we don't know the pilots abilities either, ( maybe he is a stunt pilot) So for us to jump to conclusions and bash on this guy is just dumb. It is like making a bet, when you don't even know what you are betting on... It just doesn't make sense.

 

All I am saying, is I know flying is dangerous, I know I should not exceed my limitations, I know there are old farts out there. but talk about hot dogging in general, and make that a topic. but don't watch a video clip and make up a story and say that this pilot is dangerous.... Make sure you know the circumstances before jumping to conclusions or just labeling every flight you see on a video unsafe..... Not every video can be unsafe, and no pilot is perfect. Every pilot has plenty to still learn, so every video or flight you see could have been safer, but it wasnt' so just relax and let it go.....

 

when these videos are posted, they are strickly for entertainment and everyone knows what is probably dangerous flying and what is perfectly safe. But guess what, the boring flight videos are not going to be posted her cause everyone knows what safe flying looks like. everyone wants to see something off the wall and dangerous. something that looks cool. Nobody would watch a movie , if all of the reports came back saying this movie was very borring and just like this other boring video. People want excitement, that is what you are seeing on here and that is what gets peoples' attention. so lets all just relax and watch the video and leave it at that. lets not argue and get the topic closed, call each other names when opinions are only as good as the next guys opinion. but everyone is untitled to their own worthless opinion....

 

very well said, thank you dlo, you are so freakin cool, I wish everyone was as cool as you are!!!!

 

DLO, please promise us you ARE NOT going to be a CFI. If you can't see why those other videos show wanton disregard for safety then you really should not be instructing ANYBODY. If you want excitement you need to find a different career. My favorite part of this thread is when you say "He's ONLY endangering the lives of himself and the camera man"!!! Oh man, that's rich!! STAY AWAY from students, please. I've lost enough friends already.

[HH60Pilot]

If one opinion is no better than any other, and "all" are labeled worthless, then even the opinion that opines that all opinions are worthless...is worthless and should be disregarded.

 

I couldn't have said it better if I said it myself.

 

Doug

Edited November 29, 2006 by HH60Pilot