Will the iraq pilot's take alot of jobs from regualr pilots?

[elpinoman]

my dad says the iraq pilots will take alot of jobs from pilot's who pay to train. I was just wondering how the future for pilots look. i want to start training in 1month, but i want to make sure im making the right choice.

[Linc]

Unlike after the Vietnam war, the U.S. helicopter industry is very mature and the U.S. Army has not recently increased the number of aircraft in its inventory. The Army makes about the same number of pilots every year that it has since before Sept. 11, 2001 because it has that same number of aircraft in its inventory. I don't believe that your father's fears are accurate at all.

[fatnlazy]

Before I anger anyone w/my comments I will let it be known that I am a disabled US army combat vet, and I'm also an industry long line pilot. My opinion on military pilots is this, and it is only my opinion. US army helicopter flight training is the best in the world but there are a couple of problems when it comes to finding employment in the civilian sector, one is the fact that most military pilots have never soloed a machine while in the military, which is a possible red flag when it comes to cockpit management, another factor and possible problem w/ the UH/60 pilots is power management, if you try to grab a armpit full of collective in any other machine on the civilian side it is not nearly as forgiving. Now I've never flown a 60, I'm a UH/1 guy but this is my understanding, and if I look at a resume w/75% UH/60 time I see another red flag. Now this can all be overcome and please dont think I'm bashing anybody most of these guys are much better pilots than myself, this is just an observation and some insight into the civilian industry and how it works. I'm sure that there will be pilots coming home from the war and finding work on this side but I wouldn't be to concerned about a flooded market. Hope I was helpful to some of you looking at a career as a RW pilot.

 

P.S. Sorry for any spelling errors.

 

Guy

[delorean]

If anything, the war will only help. I've never been in the military, but all the guys I work with are active national guard. They say the the Army isn't training near the amount of helicopter pilots as they used to (i.e. Vietnam). And when these guys are getting out of the Army, they only have 1000 hrs give or take.

 

These guys do not have time in piston helicopters or civilian instructor ratings, and will not be taking CFI jobs from new CFIs (especially when you need 50 hrs in make/model to instruct in an Robinson or need to meet other insurance req's).

 

As fatnlazy said, some do not have any solo time. My company will not hire anyone that does not have at least 50 hours of solo time.

 

Finally, I don't know the lingo or how all these calculations work......but when you're in the National Guard your awarded so many "points" or "credits" toward your pension for being active, then when you go to war that's multiplied or bonuses added, etc. All I know is that the older guys who have remained in the National Guard holding out for the max retirement pension, will get that accellerated amount and reach the maxed out point early for going to war. Which means......with that big pension they may retire altogether or just fly part time thus opening a lot of EMS, offshore, etc jobs. For anyone who knows how that actually works, sorry if I butchered it, but that's I interpreted from the guys I work with.

 

So, don't worry about it.....the market is only getting bigger. EMS is growing like crazy, GOM needs pilots left and right, tour industry is good from what I hear, etc. Get in now!

[brushfire21]

Could someone explain to me why the military pilots are not getting solo time while flying? I don't mean to sound like I am un-educated, but would be interested in more insight in to this.

 

Thanks everyone for being patient for those of us not in the know....

[Linc]

All the current aircraft require two crewmembers. The Army believes that this will save them aircraft, but also saves them money by making sure that every aircraft hour buys them two pilot flight hours.

[brushfire21]

So how is the time logged for each crew member in this fashion, in civilian terms (PIC, SIC ?)

[fatnlazy]

IP, Instructor pilot, PC, Command pilot, SC, Second command.

[gmsemel]

The Military goes out of its way to retain pilots, and they have been doing a good job of it. Its not the guys comming home from the Wars, Vets get leg up on interviews accross the board for being vets. That is not the problem you need to worry about. You are always going to be in competion for employment, that is just life. What you need to consern yourself with is that will you be able to afford working as a helicopter pilot for the pay rate with the huge amount of debt some take on to go to flight school? The best thing is to get Uncle Sam to send you to Flight School, and use the GI bill to get an education on top of that. Give it a long hard look, and I don't mean going for a ride for 15 min and then taking on debt for the next 25 years or so. Flight schools by nature will tell you the job prospects are the best its ever been. And there is some truth to it, but if you look at the history of Aviation, for every boom there is a bust, that is the nature of the industry, I seen four booms and four busts and the busts seem to get longer and deeper. The world wide demand for helicopter pilots is really tied to Oil, since Oil is the biggest consumer of Helicopter Services, right now there is a boom in Oil, but Oil like other things for every Boom there will be a bust, that is just economics. The last Oil boom in the late 1980's to early 1990s were followed by a bust that put a lot of companies out of business. Great at the pump but hell for the guys working in the industry, and when you fly helicopters for a living, the health of Oil prices is what you are really looking at. In other words 60 dollar barrel of oil is better than 10 dollar barrel of oil, the problem is that the 60 dollar barrel of oil will not last, the the industry knows it. As for the Pilot time issue, its really not about solo time, its about single pilot time. Just not many airframes in the services that are single pilot anymore. Its not much of an issue.

[Linc]

So how is the time logged for each crew member in this fashion, in civilian terms (PIC, SIC ?)

In the Army, PC=Pilot in Command, PI would be the equivalent to SIC. Certain jobs imply PIC while conducting their duties, for instance Instructors (IP) and Maintenance (MP) pilots.

[fatnlazy]

You must not have read my comments very well, I'm not concerned about flight school and who's going to pay, I've got a job in the industry and have had one for a long time as a long line pilot, and oil is not the biggest consumer of the helicopter industry! insurance companys are!!!

 

Thats not true the OH/58 models only require 1 pilot!

[Linc]

All advanced aircraft require two pilots to perform missions.

 

OH-58A/C aircraft are not advanced aircraft and the missions utilizing them are going to the UH-72A, which will utilize contract pilots (except for the ARNG aircraft) more than green-suiters. They are the exception and not the rule and do not invalidate my previous statement, since they are not considered "current" aircraft but are considered "legacy" aircraft. In other words, aircraft the Army would like to be rid of but must continue to operate them until they are replaced.

 

The OH-58D is also a "legacy" aircraft but requires two pilots for the conduct of missions. Most commanders require two pilots and will only approve single pilot operations under certain conditions, usually only involving instructor pilots, maintenance pilots or senior, experienced PICs.

[fatnlazy]

Whats considered an advanced aircraft in your opinion, 2 pilots ??. 2 of the aircraft I've worked in the past, the B407, and the B212HP, both single pilot PIC, I consider to be more advanced than the OH/58D, And In my opinion I like the UH/1 better than any of them even though I would not consider it to be advanced at all, and its also single pilot and I have to play w/radios, look at charts, fly the aircraft, etc.etc.etc. all by my lonesome.

[Linc]

Are you worried about my opinion? I'm telling you how it works in the U.S. Army...today.

 

From time to time I come across guys who used to be in the service who think the service is frozen in time and still works the way they experienced it and then can't wrap their minds around something new being the reality. Worse are those guys who were never Army Aviation but know how it works because they know somebody who once was, or worse than that, they read it in a book or <shudder> on a website and now they're experts.

 

I don't doubt that you're the greatest gift to flying helicopters. You're probably better than every Army pilot who is required to fly with another guy next to him, whether or not he needs the help. Facing that fact, I am now forced to go curl up in my bed and suck my thumb and reinforce my inferiority complex.

[fatnlazy]

I wasn't worried in the least little bit, I was just interested in what your oipinion might be, but never mind. Anyhow I wasn't bashing, chances are that you are a better pilot than me, but I get by. All I was trying to do was give some insight into the civilian side of the industry but it got a little heated and so I apoligize if I have affended. I did my time, and now I work on this side and I thought I could help.

[Linc]

Sorry, perhaps it was the New Years ambrosia. Anyways, my opinion is that for what we do, down in and dodging the trees (or buildings, or taking fire), firing weapons systems, flying AND looking for the bad guys or coordinating between several other aircraft and the ground forces at one time...two pilots is not unreasonable. I can fly around the NAS all by myself, not that they'll let me. That's not a problem. I believe it takes a lot of effort and skill to work as an effective cockpit team, especially during terrain flight, because you can't do it all alone and survive.

 

The Air Force, Navy and Marines may have different opinions.

[Hawk Driver]

Linc is right, as a UH60 pilot in country(Iraq) now, I can tell you that yes, we (army aviators) could fly these machines by ourselves all day long. But, that would be stupid. The Army has a reason for sticking two aviators in the same cockpit. It gets more than just a little busy in the air when your flying close to the ground dodging power polls and wires oh, lets not forget ground fire and then tuning radios. Oh, and again did I mention flying multi-ship, flying so close to other aircraft sometimes that you can read their instrument panel all under NVG's. No question, you want to fly with the best..FLY ARMY!!

 

And another thing, all army pilots are trained on power management and we learn to fly in 206's which is way under-powered compared to my hawk. Oh, and you think we got all the power in the world over here? Think again, ask Linc he knows being a KW pilot. Just remember, just because we don't fly hueys anymore doesn't mean we don't know how to manage power.

 

Sorry, if I ruffled any feathers. I just get tired of people thinking Army Aviation isn't what is used to be. Well, it isn't it's better than it ever has been! Now, I wasn't trying to be rude, just wanted to set the record straight. God Bless all the Rotorheads out there military and civilain. Good luck whatever you do.

[fatnlazy]

You didn't ruffle my feathers, and I'm not angered at all, and I wasn't saying that you can't fly solo, I was saying that the army doesn't allow you to do so and that the majority of army aviators have never soloed, and if you haven't soloed yet you haven't any idea what I'm talking about. I'm not saying you can't do it or that it can't be done.

In the second note about flying so close to another aircraft that you can read his inst in NVG's, thats Funny. I can't see my own inst with NVG's on. Have a nice day gents.

[Linc]

That's not to say that on occasion, even with another pilot in the cockpit, I don't conduct single pilot operations. Not by choice, but rather by necessity.

[notspock]

First let me say that I worked for a consulting firm in their aviation division. For some time I was the only rotor head and got all of those assignments. We worked mostly for lenders, insurers and Corporations that had, or were considering an aviation department. We advised on mission requirements, equipment, safety, logistics, crew and financial considerations. I have been out of the field for 12 years, so my input is dated.

 

We considered military RW flight training the best. Thur the mid 90's, military aviators were plentiful and would work cheap. That is no longer the case. The Army trains less RW aviators, pays them better and requires a longer service obligation. Some pilots are halfway to retirement before they fulfill their, time in service obligation.

 

I don't understand all the talk about solo flying. I was trained by the Army and I do not recall ever flying solo in training. We did fly many hours with a fellow student and this was considered solo. If an employer requires solo time, that may just be their lack of understanding. I would never have suggested that, as a consideration for employment. In the past I would have had no problem in convincing someone to insure a pilot, (military or civilian) with no solo time.

 

To suggest that military pilots lack power management skills, is ludicrous. A UH-60 may have a lot of power, but military commanders always find a way to push the envelope.

 

If a client was considering heavy lift operations, we suggested pilots that had time in CH-47's or CH-54's. Most of these were ex-military. With most other operations, our recommendations were based on experience. Everyone then and now, should seek pilots with the most relevant experience. A pilot with 3000 hrs, mostly IP/island hopping in Florida is not a great candidate for a job supporting the oil industry in Alaska. We stole every pilot we could find flying out of Portland and Seattle during the construction of the pipeline. Why? Relevant weather and terrain experience.

 

It is my feeling that military RW flight training and military RW aviators are as good as there is.

 

That said, there are not and will not be 10's of thousands of ex-military RW aviators available in the near future.

 

Get your time, fly anything that is available. Try to gain experience in every discipline that you can. Instruction, weather, external loads, (sling loads/longline) turbine, multi engine and systems management. Pick up a fixed wing ticket if possible. Learn EMS, firefighting and ATC procedures and techniques. Keep a spotless safety record.

 

There will be jobs for those of you that are prepared. Your skills and experience should be your main concern, not military pilots getting most of the jobs.

[Fastlane]

my dad says the iraq pilots will take alot of jobs from pilot's who pay to train. I was just wondering how the future for pilots look. i want to start training in 1month, but i want to make sure im making the right choice.

 

I don't mean to upset anyone here, but I had to say something. I'm a "pay-as-you-go" student, so I understand what you're asking. But the way I feel is that WE are taking THEIR jobs, not the other way around.

 

I'm proud of those boys over in the sandbox!

[Goldy]

my dad says the iraq pilots will take alot of jobs from pilot's who pay to train. I was just wondering how the future for pilots look. i want to start training in 1month, but i want to make sure im making the right choice.

 

 

Just a side note, not all Army helo pilots want to come back to the states, and get a job flying. I have a sales rep that calls on me who has over 2500 hours in Army combat attack helicopters. He hasnt stepped foot in a helo since he got out just after the first Gulf War.

 

In his current job he is home every night and makes 3x the money he would flying.