Northeast helicopters TSA Fee? (Was helicopter rental for rated pilots?)

[mentor]

What?! How do you get to me being guilty of ethics? 1st off, "NOT" anyone can become a safety representative. Call your FSDO and ask for specifics. 2nd, one of my responsibilities is to monitor activities at Airports for safety concerns, I think this qualifies. Reporting on potential safety issues and violations of the FARs is a considerable part of the role. 3rd, while I am not a paid employee with the FAA I do have a FAA manager I report to and am directed by, I am required to perform my duties as a FAA representative on a schedule, must "work" specific hour requirements per month, and I do have credentials which I am required to carry and show when performing the duties of my role in support of the FAA. The only thing missing is the low government pay. This is a role that was covered by paid FAA employees. A decision was made that the FAA is understaffed to properly meet the needs of the role and asked for volunteers from GA who are "qualified" to pitch in and help. There is a big difference between "your" perception of my role with the FAA and a company collecting money claiming its for a federal agency.

[/qu

 

I have been a safety counselor for over 15 years, I know what it involves. But I do not use that or my examiner status to allude to the fact that I am employed by the FAA. Only when you were called out did you fess up. For years I have encouraged all of my new CFI’s to become safety counselors as part of my professional development class. It really does not require much, and when used in the spirit of its intent it could help you in your career as well as the aviation community. What I abhor is people that try to use it as a power trip. Did you mention your ”FAA status“ when you wanted to rent the R22. A power trip is not what the position is all about. I can assure you most FAA program managers would revoke your card if they suspected you were representing yourself as with the FAA. Also to up date you, the program has changed significantly in the passed six months, you might want to check in with your “FAA boss” they are encouraging more folks to join the new program, and yes almost anyone can get in. Oh by the way, in 15 years I have never shown “my credentials,” did I mention I was nominated for Counselor and CFI of the year last year.

[permison]

"Mentor" to protect this thread from becoming a pissing contest about ego trips and such I responded via PM. Lets take this disagreement out of the public eye to protect the perception of program with the FAA which you and I are official representitives of.

[bossman]

Permison,

I think that Mentor has struck a nerve. Sometimes the truth has that effect.

bossman

[permison]

Permison,

I think that Mentor has struck a nerve. Sometimes the truth has that effect.

bossman

 

Bossman,

I think you have misinterpreted my reason for taking our discussion off line. Mentor and I were having a debate over our support role for aviation safety. My intent was not to hide the "truth" it was merely to protect the public image of the program. Safety Reps/Counselors are held to a higher standard than the average Joe pilot. One of the primary functions is to make presentations and answer questions related to aviation to the flying and non-flying public. We are expected to be knowledgeable sources in aviation matters least we degrade the public image and information we provide and cause the public to question our abilities in the role. When Mentor questioned the way I handled something (based on what I believe is a misinterpretation of the facts) I asked him to discuss it with me in a nonpublic forum so we don't get replies like yours which question the validity of the program or its participants (Specificly me). I am not attempting to insult you in anyway, but you don't have the whole story, and posting statements like you have takes away from the message of the original post.

 

I was told of something that I did not understand or agree with. I came to Vertical Reference to ask my peers and mentors for a second opinion of something I was fairly certain of in the first place. But being an intelligent person I questioned whether I had the correct information or if I was misinformed. Because of the holidays I was unable to reach those in authority (TSA or FAA) so I came here. I mentioned my involvement with the FAA here to avoid the expected posts of something I already was aware of, and only here did I bring up my role with the FAA. I have never publicly discussed my role as a member of the FAA Safety Program before my post here and certainly not during my phone call with Northeast. At the time I expect they merely thought I was a potential student and not an experienced pilot.

 

There are representatives from Northeast here on Vertical Reference but strangely enough they have not posted a response.

 

I am a DC area pilot and we deal with people every day who hide behind "Aviation Security" to charge more or do things different from the norm. Most expect the average person not to question things in the name of security. I happen to be more knowledgeable then the average Joe about these matters becuse I fly in Washington DC airspace (ADIZ and FRZ) often, not becuse I am smarter, but becuse I have more experiance with it than someone who lives elsewhere.

 

I am deeply disappointed with the reaction from some of you. With all the talk of difficulties with companies like Silverstate I would think some of the more experienced members would discuss this like adults with positive suggestions and information (and some have thankfully) but others would rather shoot the messenger or person questioning the information given. Guys like Mentor had a great oppertunity here to be a "Mentor" and could have spoken to me off line about his perception of how I handled the situation. Instead he posted in a way where I feel I have to publicly defend myself and in doing so has degraded the benifit of this post and made me question his motives as I am sure he is quesitoning mine. And of course the peanut gallery has to chime in.......without learing the whole story.

[blave]

And so now you are experiencing what I recently experienced on this site - I can't quite figure out what's going on, but there seems to be a number of participants in the VR forums that are quite willing to jump down the throat of other posters, for some perceived crossing of some line or (in my case) perceived over-reaction to expressed safety concerns.

 

I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone or flame anyone on this thread or other threads - all I am saying is that I am less inclined to post here now because I find pissing matches with other people (hiding behind pseudonyms in all cases) to be unpleasant and demoralizing.

 

I participate in several forums - not all aviation related - and for whatever reason I don't enjoy this one as much as I used to. Hopefully this will pass.

 

---

 

BTW, I referenced "call signs" above, vs. using real names. I guess I (reluctantly) understand why this is perceived to be necessary in this line of work - I am not a professional pilot so I use my real name - but I sometimes wonder how things would be here if everyone was required to use their real name.

 

No doubt it would be a lot quieter - which is really a shame at some level.

 

Dave Blevins

[bossman]

Permison,

You are the one that decided to take your gripe with a business to this public forum. If you do not want the opinions of others, don't ask for them. I only made reference to the fact that Mentor seemed to have struck a sore spot with you. I am still under the opinion that you did NE a disservice by not identifing yourself to them and then bringing your complaint to a public forum under the guise of a FAA affiliated person. NE needs to question your handlers as to why this happened. It was not very professional. As far as you being more experienced because you fly in and around DC, all you have learned is how to talk to ATC and avoid Homeland Security. It may come as a shock to you, but some of us don't sweat the small stuff. This is not an attack on you personally, it is my reaction to your handling of a situation under the guise of a FAA represenative. I could be looking at it all wrong. When you come down to fly my Alouette's we will discuss my attitude toward your approach. Looking forward to meeting you.

bossman

[permison]

Permison,

You are the one that decided to take your gripe with a business to this public forum. If you do not want the opinions of others, don't ask for them. I only made reference to the fact that Mentor seemed to have struck a sore spot with you. I am still under the opinion that you did NE a disservice by not identifing yourself to them and then bringing your complaint to a public forum under the guise of a FAA affiliated person. NE needs to question your handlers as to why this happened. It was not very professional. As far as you being more experienced because you fly in and around DC, all you have learned is how to talk to ATC and avoid Homeland Security. It may come as a shock to you, but some of us don't sweat the small stuff. This is not an attack on you personally, it is my reaction to your handling of a situation under the guise of a FAA represenative. I could be looking at it all wrong. When you come down to fly my Alouette's we will discuss my attitude toward your approach. Looking forward to meeting you.

bossman

 

Bossman,

What you’re asking me to do is exactly what Mentor is accusing me of doing. Talk about a “No Win” situation. I called the company for a personal reason and had a short 5 minute conversation with the owner. I was not there under the “Guise of a FAA affiliated person”, nor did I post my question here under the “Guise of a FAA affiliated person”. You are reading far too much into this and making a huge leap of logic. It did not come up in conversation, it had no bearing on the conversation, I had no reason to mention it as I was not calling for official business, and it would not be appropriate for me to. I just wanted to take a pleasure flight. When you go to buy a hamburger at the airport restaurant do you make sure they know you are a pilot or business owner at the airport? How about when you rent a car? Is it important that they know that you are a pilot or airport business owner? (With the exception of a possible discount)

 

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. However my question was about the fee and back ground check the company claims is required by the TSA. I was not looking for your opinion on how the FAA and anyone affiliated with them should interact with the rest of the world.

 

What difference would it make if I was a Student or DE or the Mayor of happy town? I had a question and went to find a second opinion. Vertical Reference is a place specifically for these types of questions and I will do so again. Just like 4 other popular threads regarding 4 other flight schools where students are being asked to pay fees that seem unusual to them. It was not a complaint just an attempt to find further info without making an official inquiry. All I wanted to know was if anyone else was asking for this or had heard of this TSA rule. I got my answers and reacted accordingly by taking my business else where. You and Mentor however had to chime in and destroy the value of this thread. Have you reacted the same way in posts about Silver State? Mentor could easily have just sent me a PM and suggested I handle this differently in the future. Neither of you are adding value to Virtual Reference with these posts and accusations about the messenger. I do think you are looking at this all wrong and making a huge leap of logic about the situation.

 

I got to admit though you got a huge set of balls, after all this you still are expecting me to come spend my money with your flight school? I think that would be a disaster on both our parts as you would be paranoid I was there to report you for some violation of the FARs and I would just be trying to take a nice pleasure flight, get checked out in a cool turbine and take my girlfriends parents out for a ride around their home town. When I can sneak in sometime between meetings, I would be happy to give you a call and discuss this with you but I don’t want someone coming back here and saying because I did not want to continue to debate this online and took it to a private communication I am somehow trying to hide something.

[bossman]

Permison,

You are really easy. It also just breaks my heart that you do not want to fly with us. I have never been paranoid in my life.

bossman

[permison]

And so now you are experiencing what I recently experienced on this site - I can't quite figure out what's going on, but there seems to be a number of participants in the VR forums that are quite willing to jump down the throat of other posters, for some perceived crossing of some line or (in my case) perceived over-reaction to expressed safety concerns.

 

I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone or flame anyone on this thread or other threads - all I am saying is that I am less inclined to post here now because I find pissing matches with other people (hiding behind pseudonyms in all cases) to be unpleasant and demoralizing.

 

I participate in several forums - not all aviation related - and for whatever reason I don't enjoy this one as much as I used to. Hopefully this will pass.

 

---

 

BTW, I referenced "call signs" above, vs. using real names. I guess I (reluctantly) understand why this is perceived to be necessary in this line of work - I am not a professional pilot so I use my real name - but I sometimes wonder how things would be here if everyone was required to use their real name.

 

No doubt it would be a lot quieter - which is really a shame at some level.

 

Dave Blevins

 

Dave,

Your right there does seem to be a shyness about people who point out problems in aviation (The guys who were fired for pointing out problems with shuttle missions for Columbia and Challenger come to mind). I apologize but I do not know the specifics of your issue. However don't back down when you question a safety issue or anything that you don't find comfort with. This is a very dangerous game we play flying helicopters (and fixed wings) and safety needs to always be at the front of our mind. If you find a company that has questionable fees or does things different from the rest of the industry, I would certainly question where else might things need to be looked at. You might get a label or reputation of being a complainer or too cautious but there are good companies out there who want good safe pilots. If you ask the right questions you will be respected for that by the right people. If someone wants to jump down your throat for questioning how something is done. Thank them for their time and just take your business elsewhere. Good companies have nothing to hide from more focus and Bad companies don't want the attention.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, all to often I see flight schools who take advantage of students, believing the student will just roll over because they do not want to threaten the dream they are chasing of being a helicopter pilot. Flight training is just another business. They live and die by their customers. When they forget that, they run into trouble. I don't believe the customer is always right but the customer is always able to ask questions, or they aren't a good customer. Never be afraid to ask questions, and never back down till you get an answer you understand, If you don't then take your money and go else where.

 

There are members here who like the best of both worlds. They like to hide behind the ambiguity of a call-sign (Screen-name) and yet make claims of great experience. These same posters like to play a game we call being a seagull, flying in, sh!ting all over everything and then flying out. You and I have received some of that. F@ck 'em. They aren't people you want to fly with anyway.

[mentor]

Dave,

Your right there does seem to be a shyness about people who point out problems in aviation (The guys who were fired for pointing out problems with shuttle missions for Columbia and Challenger come to mind). I apologize but I do not know the specifics of your issue. However don't back down when you question a safety issue or anything that you don't find comfort with. This is a very dangerous game we play flying helicopters (and fixed wings) and safety needs to always be at the front of our mind. If you find a company that has questionable fees or does things different from the rest of the industry, I would certainly question where else might things need to be looked at. You might get a label or reputation of being a complainer or too cautious but there are good companies out there who want good safe pilots. If you ask the right questions you will be respected for that by the right people. If someone wants to jump down your throat for questioning how something is done. Thank them for their time and just take your business elsewhere. Good companies have nothing to hide from more focus and Bad companies don't want the attention.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, all to often I see flight schools who take advantage of students, believing the student will just roll over because they do not want to threaten the dream they are chasing of being a helicopter pilot. Flight training is just another business. They live and die by their customers. When they forget that, they run into trouble. I don't believe the customer is always right but the customer is always able to ask questions, or they aren't a good customer. Never be afraid to ask questions, and never back down till you get an answer you understand, If you don't then take your money and go else where.

 

There are members here who like the best of both worlds. They like to hide behind the ambiguity of a call-sign (Screen-name) and yet make claims of great experience. These same posters like to play a game we call being a seagull, flying in, sh!ting all over everything and then flying out. You and I have received some of that. F@ck 'em. They aren't people you want to fly with anyway.

For the record, Permison did not send me a PM as he indicated. The issue I have with him is his abuse of the trust the FAA has placed in him. I feel, although he has been in the program for only a very few months he is already showing an immature and irresponsible attitude not deserving of that trust. To answer the question as to why I did not send a PM. What could I say? Don’t misrepresent yourself? Is this something I should have to say ?

 

Why would I have issues? I am dedicated to the program. I have been in it for many years and have worked hard in the interest of Safety. I have sponsored numerous Wings and Pace programs to the tune of thousands of dollars in personal funds as well funds I raised from major operators and the insurance industry. All of the counselors I have worked with over the years are selfless and unassuming individuals that have dedicated numerous hours of personal time, money and effort to the program. All of them, like myself are aviation Professionals involved in training. (this used to be a prerequisite in the old program) Why do I choose to remain anonymous? For the same reason I make anonymous donations, sponsor student pilots, and give away hundreds of hours of flight time. I am giving back to the industry that has been so good to me, as well as honoring my Mentor, without whom I would never have been able to achieve the success I have.

[ARMYAV8R]

For the record, Permison did not send me a PM as he indicated. The issue I have with him is his abuse of the trust the FAA has placed in him. I feel, although he has been in the program for only a very few months he is already showing an immature and irresponsible attitude not deserving of that trust. To answer the question as to why I did not send a PM. What could I say? Don’t misrepresent yourself? Is this something I should have to say ?

 

Why would I have issues? I am dedicated to the program. I have been in it for many years and have worked hard in the interest of Safety. I have sponsored numerous Wings and Pace programs to the tune of thousands of dollars in personal funds as well funds I raised from major operators and the insurance industry. All of the counselors I have worked with over the years are selfless and unassuming individuals that have dedicated numerous hours of personal time, money and effort to the program. All of them, like myself are aviation Professionals involved in training. (this used to be a prerequisite in the old program) Why do I choose to remain anonymous? For the same reason I make anonymous donations, sponsor student pilots, and give away hundreds of hours of flight time. I am giving back to the industry that has been so good to me, as well as honoring my Mentor, without whom I would never have been able to achieve the success I have.

AND FROM THE PEANUT GALLERY: OK THIS IS ENOUGH OF THE BACK N FORTH BANTER..please take it somewhere else..like you all suggested..on a PM...

 

Blake Scott

[permison]

For the record, Permison did not send me a PM as he indicated. The issue I have with him is his abuse of the trust the FAA has placed in him. I feel, although he has been in the program for only a very few months he is already showing an immature and irresponsible attitude not deserving of that trust. To answer the question as to why I did not send a PM. What could I say? Don’t misrepresent yourself? Is this something I should have to say ?

 

Why would I have issues? I am dedicated to the program. I have been in it for many years and have worked hard in the interest of Safety. I have sponsored numerous Wings and Pace programs to the tune of thousands of dollars in personal funds as well funds I raised from major operators and the insurance industry. All of the counselors I have worked with over the years are selfless and unassuming individuals that have dedicated numerous hours of personal time, money and effort to the program. All of them, like myself are aviation Professionals involved in training. (this used to be a prerequisite in the old program) Why do I choose to remain anonymous? For the same reason I make anonymous donations, sponsor student pilots, and give away hundreds of hours of flight time. I am giving back to the industry that has been so good to me, as well as honoring my Mentor, without whom I would never have been able to achieve the success I have.

 

Mentor,

I think your a fraud who hides behind your anonomous screenname and likes to pick fights online. Attached is a screen capture of the PM tracking of the message I sent back on the 7th. Your either too stupid to use the PM system here or just a loser with nothing better to do but try to make trouble. Either way I am done arguing with you. If your such a big shot with the FAA then get me removed from the program. Some how I don't see it happening. Either way this discussion is closed. You and bossman have ruined any value this thread could possibly have had and in point of fact given the issue more visability then I am sure your friends over at Northeast wanted.

[67november]

AND FROM THE PEANUT GALLERY: OK THIS IS ENOUGH OF THE BACK N FORTH BANTER..please take it somewhere else..like you all suggested..on a PM...

 

Blake Scott

 

 

Either way this discussion is closed.

 

YES it is, this thread has gone off into a tangent that is no longer benefiting anyone!