What a waste of time

[Sparks]

So, i have just got back from Florida, which i went to with $1000 to do some flying, and how many hours did i do?

 

Between 0 and 0.

 

I last flew out there just a trial thing 2 years ago, and now you need foreign secruity whatever its called.

 

All i wanted was to do a couple hours that i can log and put towards my ppl.

 

The guy said it would take about 3 weeks and a bunch of paper work just to get past this new secruity thing.

 

So, how am i supposed to get this secruity thing (i dont even know what its called )?

How long is it valid?

Whats the terms and conditions to it?

 

Im pretty pissed off with it all. All this homeland secruity, yet the airport has 3 open gates and no secruity.

[flyby_heli]

If you are not a US citizen, you have to be approved by the TSA (transport security administration, used to be homeland security) to do any flight training in the US. There is some paperwork, then you have to get your photo and fingerprints taken at a police staion, or another facility approved by the TSA. And there is, of course, a fee to pay.....$130 for a "background check".

Only thing I don't get, is that for every "advanced rating" (instrument, multiengine, multi-instrument, etc. At least for airplanes) you have to pay the fee over again. I would think that one background check would be enough......

Once you are approved i don't think they have an expiration date on your approval, but they come up with new rules all the time, so who knows what's next.

 

I agree with you that this security hysteria is getting rediculous. You can't even take toothpaste onboard planes anymore, but yet they give you a knife and fork with your meal......

Edited December 30, 2006 by flyby_heli

[KMWK]

It is rediculous! Big brother has all the control. It's our fault for allowing our Government to get out of control.

 

If I'm not mistaken, it works both ways. I can't train in Germany without red tape...........................such is life. I guess we live with it or overthrow it. I know what my vote is.

[Bristol]

Sparks,

 

Do you mind me asking...Where did you go in Florida?

 

Bristol

[Witch]

Oh don't get me started on the Homeland Security thing.

 

Later

[Sparks]

Sparks,

 

Do you mind me asking...Where did you go in Florida?

 

Bristol

Went to helicopters of America in Pompano.

[joker]

sparks!

 

Sorry to hear that you were surprised, but this is not new.

 

You make it sound like you had planned this trip as a flight training trip.

 

I am sure though that if it was, most normal people would Contact the school in advance to orgainise things.

 

In that case I am surpirsed the school would let you get all the way to the states without giving you a heads up about the TSA requirements.

 

If on the other hand you went over for a holiday, and thought you would do a little flying while you were there, then that's unlucky, but a little naiive.

 

Hopefully youll be a little more prepared for your next trip.

 

Joker

[KMWK]

Well put Joker............I'll second that!

 

 

 

sparks!

 

Sorry to hear that you were surprised, but this is not new.

 

You make it sound like you had planned this trip as a flight training trip.

 

I am sure though that if it was, most normal people would Contact the school in advance to orgainise things.

 

In that case I am surpirsed the school would let you get all the way to the states without giving you a heads up about the TSA requirements.

 

If on the other hand you went over for a holiday, and thought you would do a little flying while you were there, then that's unlucky, but a little naiive.

 

Hopefully youll be a little more prepared for your next trip.

 

Joker

[Sparks]

It was a holiday trip and i was going anyway, but i thought it would be nice to fly a bit also.

 

I had no idea about this secruity thing and why would I? I would have thought that there would be something about it or even a mentioning of it in these forums or on the hundreds of helicopter training websites i have been on.

 

The stupid thing with all this american homeland secruity crap is that i could go and crash a plane filled with explosives into anywhere 3 hours from any small airfield. It doesnt matter whether 38 years ago i trained in some muslim extremist camp in afghanistan or not because i can get a cessena 177 off the ground.

 

Well, i have bought a new guitar now with the money i took out there to fly (because im young and stupid )

[heliman500]

Sorry to hear about your trip but i'm afraid they have wrongley advised you there.

 

The only time you need a TSA clearance is when you undergo training that will further enhance your capabilities as a pilot; for example. instrument and multi engine rating, you do not even need it for a commercial rating. Any good flight school should have known that.

Edited December 31, 2006 by heliman500

[Sparks]

Sorry to hear about your trip but i'm afraid they have wrongley advised you there.

 

The only time you need a TSA clearance is when you undergo training that will further enhance your capabilities as a pilot; for example. instrument and multi engine rating, you do not even need it for a commercial rating. Any good flight school should have known that.

Well, in that case they just had $1000 worth of business walk out the door.

 

All i wanted was around 4 hours or something just to go towards my ppl when i eventually do it.

[Linc]

Isn't TSA part of the DHS?

[flyby_heli]

Sorry to hear about your trip but i'm afraid they have wrongley advised you there.

 

The only time you need a TSA clearance is when you undergo training that will further enhance your capabilities as a pilot; for example. instrument and multi engine rating, you do not even need it for a commercial rating. Any good flight school should have known that.

 

 

You need it any time you want to start flight training. And later you need to pay the fee for the background check for any advanced rating. In my opinion the first $1000 is the money that enhances your capabilities as a pilot the most......

 

This is taken from the TSA website (tsa.gov):

 

The Alien Flight Student Program (AFSP) conducts background checks for non-U.S. citizens seeking flight training. Prior to obtaining flight training non-U.S. citizens must apply online through the AFSP website and provide their fingerprints, biographical information, security documents including passport copies, and specific information about their desired training events. The AFSP processes candidate training request applications using four different categories distinguished by the type of training requested.

 

An application fee of $130 for the background check is required. The AFSP also requires flight schools to submit a digital photo taken of the candidate on the day they report to training to verify their identity. In addition, flight schools must undergo annual security awareness training. To help fulfill this requirement, the Security Awareness Training course is available online.

 

This is from the AFSP website (flightschoolcandidates.gov):

 

Candidates must obtain AFSP approval for the following three training events:

 

The candidate's initial pilot's certificate, including a private, recreational, or sport pilot certificate.

The multi-engine rating.

The candidate's instrument rating.

 

The TSA's clarification of these requirements is at: http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p80/310342.pdf

Candidates may apply for one of the above training events at a time. All three training events require separate training requests and fee payments.

 

Further Clarification: Category 3 Rotorcraft Requirements: Candidates seeking training on rotorcraft with an MTOW of less than 12,500 lbs are subject to the above Category 3 clarification. Candidates seeking rotorcraft training must obtain approval for the initial license, instrument rating or multi-engine rating if the pilot does not hold a fixed-wing equivalent.

Edited December 31, 2006 by flyby_heli

[Heloplt]

Sorry to hear about your trip but i'm afraid they have wrongley advised you there.

 

The only time you need a TSA clearance is when you undergo training that will further enhance your capabilities as a pilot; for example. instrument and multi engine rating, you do not even need it for a commercial rating. Any good flight school should have known that.

 

 

TSA Docket TSA-2004-19147

 

Bottom of page 2:

 

1. Accordingly, TSA is further clarifying the definition of flight training in aircraft with

an MTOW of 12,500 pounds or less to include only training that a candidate could

use toward the following certificates and ratings:

 

( a ) The candidate's initial pilot certificate, including a private, recreational, or sport

pilot certificate.

( b ) The multi-engine rating.

( c ) The candidate's instrument rating.

 

By his own admission he was looking for a couple of hours towards his PPL, I'm afraid from where I sit he would have to complete the application. Not that I am a proponent of the rule, but I don't think the school was wrong.

 

Sparks,

If you check the bottom of the form there is a number for the TSA, also the website for the TSA has all the information (in typical government lawyer-type talk).

 

I can understand the government wanting to try and close the route that allowed a couple of complete nut jobs to kill a couple of thousand people. But I also have a hard time seeing how learning how to handle an R22 or a HU269 would help in future terrorist endeavors anywhere near as much as a couple of hundred hours behind a computer with microsoft flight simulator X running. Ah well, time to get off the soapbox once again.

 

Jeff

[Sparks]

Jeff, exactly right

 

Well, USA just lost $$$$$ because i will now just do any flying in Canada + i will go there to do my licenses

[Heli-Ops]

Come and do some flying down in New Zealand or Australia, none of that B/S down here

[Heloplt]

Come and do some flying down in New Zealand or Australia, none of that B/S down here

 

 

And I hear its down right pretty there. I wouldn't mind trying that as well.

[KMWK]

We didn't need the money, but thanks for thinking of us.

 

Jeff, exactly right

 

Well, USA just lost $$$$$ because i will now just do any flying in Canada + i will go there to do my licenses

[Sparks]

We didn't need the money, but thanks for thinking of us.

[gft]

Sorry you didn't get to fly the friendly skies of Florida.

 

You should have called ahead and told the school what you had in mind.

I'm sure that they would have accommodated you if they had been able.

 

In defense of the school-

You requesting several hours of training and nothing more is a typical

scenario that the new restrictions specifically address. The school doesn't know you, they have no idea that you're a serious student. For all they know you're a nut job that wants enough training to hijack an aircraft and create some havoc.

 

School operator interpretid the law as he saw it and made the call.

 

Let's face it, a $1000.00 isn't a lot of money and is hardly worth a hassle with the FAA.

 

Enjoy your lessons in Canada, aye.

[Sparks]

Sorry you didn't get to fly the friendly skies of Florida.

 

You should have called ahead and told the school what you had in mind.

I'm sure that they would have accommodated you if they had been able.

 

In defense of the school-

You requesting several hours of training and nothing more is a typical

scenario that the new restrictions specifically address. The school doesn't know you, they have no idea that you're a serious student. For all they know you're a nut job that wants enough training to hijack an aircraft and create some havoc.

 

School operator interpretid the law as he saw it and made the call.

 

Let's face it, a $1000.00 isn't a lot of money and is hardly worth a hassle with the FAA.

 

Enjoy your lessons in Canada, aye.

 

Yeah you're absolutly right, its not there fault and they probably lose more than just my $1000 because of it.

 

Its just a shame it has to be like that.

[KMWK]

Notice I didn't say that I couldn't use it. I am really sorry it happend that way and it does tie the hands of the schools.

 

Happy New Year

 

[500E]

$1000 is UK £512 approx. and is worth an effort to secure, flight schools saying they are finding it hard to survive .

The loss is not just the initial money but the ongoing revenue for further training + other like minded people who will say I will not go to USA for flight training and as they spend Flight money, subsistence money, give employment to CFIs, etc the cost is not $1000 but possibly in excess of $20.000 per person no going to train, so it could turn into a figure that makes an appreciable difference to a schools profit.

I always think when people say $5 \ $1.000 not much money they rely should think what if my boss said you are a xx short in your wages BUT hey its not a lot of money, go home and tell the other half.

Not having a go but having to make every penny I have even the thought leaves me cold

[Sparks]

$1000 is UK £512 approx. and is worth an effort to secure, flight schools saying they are finding it hard to survive .

The loss is not just the initial money but the ongoing revenue for further training + other like minded people who will say I will not go to USA for flight training and as they spend Flight money, subsistence money, give employment to CFIs, etc the cost is not $1000 but possibly in excess of $20.000 per person no going to train, so it could turn into a figure that makes an appreciable difference to a schools profit.

I always think when people say $5 \ $1.000 not much money they rely should think what if my boss said you are a xx short in your wages BUT hey its not a lot of money, go home and tell the other half.

Not having a go but having to make every penny I have even the thought leaves me cold

At the end of the day, if they didnt need my $1000, why havent they retired?

[joker]

OK,

 

Let's not let things get out of perspective. There is nothing to do with anyone 'not wanting his money' or being too proud to take it. We are not talking about a nation or a 'flight school turning anyone away because the think $1000 is pittance.

 

So let's not start making sweeping statements.

 

What we have here is a case of a few simple things.

 

-Spark's lack of any knowledge of the T.S.A. requirements

-A possible misunderstanding bythe school of what Spark was looking for.

-Lack of preparation .

-Possibly the school misunderstanding the T.S.A. stuff themselves-.

 

Hell, it could have been any number of things - but I definitely dont think there was anything nasty, pompous or thoughtless going on.

 

Sparks, put it down to a good lesson learnt. Let's hope others can learn from this too.

 

Maybe to save Sparks embarrassment can anyone from UK., Oz, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand and anywhere else can give us a heads up. How would a school in these places deal with a 'walk-in' customer seeking 4 hours of lessons.

 

Probably not as rigourous as the T.S.A. but I suspect most places will have some procedure which could trip an unsuspecting Sparks!

 

Why do people's emotions always get the better of them causing them to mindlessly back the little guy and slate the big guy? In this case Goliath did no wrong!

 

Joker

 

Lastly (while I'm up here) another plea to stop re-quoting entire posts when posting. I have no need to re-download text I've already read! Use the Add Reply at the bottom of the page...please!