Goldy Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Bossman- help me here, I've been in an Alouette once, some time ago...I remember it being configured with the light army type canvas seats....it had 3 across the front and 4 in the back...seating a total of 7 !And from what I was told, had the power to take them all. Maybe that was a different model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Bossman- help me here, I've been in an Alouette once, some time ago...I remember it being configured with the light army type canvas seats....it had 3 across the front and 4 in the back...seating a total of 7 !And from what I was told, had the power to take them all. Maybe that was a different model? That is the Alouette III, and we were refering the the II. Sorry to confuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Don't get me wrong, I think the Alouette is an awesome aircraft, and for what it does, it does it economically. However, when comparing the operating costs of the R44 versus a Alouette, the R44 wins hands down. Insurance is a fraction of the cost as is fuel and maintenance. Unless I need that extra seat, or needed the high altitude performance of the Alouette, I would much prefer the operating costs, speed, and reliability of the R44. I do believe you can get a good Alouette that doesn't require a great deal of unscheduled maintenance, but I highly doubt you can do it for $140K.How many do you want for $140,000.00? I can get you at least 3 right now for that, that are excellent ships. They will give you many hour of maintenance free fun flying. Look up in the right hand corner and tell me if you can do flight instruction in a 44 for $300.00 per hour. You are still talking insurance cost. I would say that my insurance on the Alouettes is lower than on the 44, simply because of the numbers involved. Jet A is on the average, $4.00 per gallon. Av gas is not much behind that. I'll give you the speed difference and the fuel burn difference of about 25 gallons per hour ($100.00), but when you talk reliability I will beg to differ. There has never been an in flight failure of the Alouette engines since they were introduced in 1953. Since 1973 in the states there has only been one incident involving an Alouette. It was a rollover that was determined to be pilot error. No injuries. I don't have to send it in for overhaul every 2200 hours. By the way, we put about 100 hours on our ships every 40 days. It keeps our mechanics busy doing the 25, 50, and 100 hour inspections. I know that the 44 is a fine machine, we maintain one for a local businessman. It is in the engine shop for a bad crankshaft right now. This is warranty work because it has only 400 hours on it. Don't know what happened, yet. Usually a very reliable engine. The 44 does not have the power needed to do the NOE flying here in the mountains of West Virginia with a pilot, computer operator, and sniffer box needed for the pipeline patrol. At 75 feet above the pipe, up and down the sides of the mountains, we need the turbine. The students we train in the Alouettes, love them. I better shut up, these guys will accuse me of trying to promote my business. I'm not. I just like to sing the prases of a helicopter that is a joy to fly and easy to maintain, but she does like fuel. If someone is inclined toward a strong turbine that is virtually maintenance free, with a low acquisition cost, the Alouette is the way to travel. As I said before, the money you save verses other turbines can be spent on fuel. $250,000.00 will buy a lot of gallons (62,500). That's 1390 hours of flight. More than the private user will put on it in 5 or 6 years.bossman Bossman- help me here, I've been in an Alouette once, some time ago...I remember it being configured with the light army type canvas seats....it had 3 across the front and 4 in the back...seating a total of 7 !And from what I was told, had the power to take them all. Maybe that was a different model?Goldy,Ours are the Alouette 2, 5 place. We do have all leather interior and carpet, though. We use the rule of 7. They hold 500 liters of fuel. If you have 500 liters they'll carry two large folks. 400 liters 3 large folks. Get the drift? I weigh 300 pounds and have no trouble with room or power.bossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 How many do you want for $140,000.00? I can get you at least 3 right now for that, that are excellent ships. They will give you many hour of maintenance free fun flying. Look up in the right hand corner and tell me if you can do flight instruction in a 44 for $300.00 per hour. You are still talking insurance cost. I would say that my insurance on the Alouettes is lower than on the 44, simply because of the numbers involved. Jet A is on the average, $4.00 per gallon. Av gas is not much behind that. I'll give you the speed difference and the fuel burn difference of about 25 gallons per hour ($100.00), but when you talk reliability I will beg to differ. There has never been an in flight failure of the Alouette engines since they were introduced in 1953. Since 1973 in the states there has only been one incident involving an Alouette. It was a rollover that was determined to be pilot error. No injuries. I don't have to send it in for overhaul every 2200 hours. By the way, we put about 100 hours on our ships every 40 days. It keeps our mechanics busy doing the 25, 50, and 100 hour inspections. I know that the 44 is a fine machine, we maintain one for a local businessman. It is in the engine shop for a bad crankshaft right now. This is warranty work because it has only 400 hours on it. Don't know what happened, yet. Usually a very reliable engine. The 44 does not have the power needed to do the NOE flying here in the mountains of West Virginia with a pilot, computer operator, and sniffer box needed for the pipeline patrol. At 75 feet above the pipe, up and down the sides of the mountains, we need the turbine. The students we train in the Alouettes, love them. I better shut up, these guys will accuse me of trying to promote my business. I'm not. I just like to sing the prases of a helicopter that is a joy to fly and easy to maintain, but she does like fuel. If someone is inclined toward a strong turbine that is virtually maintenance free, with a low acquisition cost, the Alouette is the way to travel. As I said before, the money you save verses other turbines can be spent on fuel. $250,000.00 will buy a lot of gallons (62,500). That's 1390 hours of flight. More than the private user will put on it in 5 or 6 years.bossman Goldy,Ours are the Alouette 2, 5 place. We do have all leather interior and carpet, though. We use the rule of 7. They hold 500 liters of fuel. If you have 500 liters they'll carry two large folks. 400 liters 3 large folks. Get the drift? I weigh 300 pounds and have no trouble with room or power.bossman Ah, now I see. You are trying to sell some Alouettes. Insruction in an R44 could be done at $250 an hour and still make a profit flying 100 hours a month. The engines in the Robinsons have reliability on par with turbine engines because of the derating. Insurance on an R44 is around $11,000 a year. How much is it for full coverage on an Alouette? Like I said before, I am not saying the R44 can replace the Alouette or do its job. However, to claim that it cost less to operate an Alouette compared to an R44.....well, I just have to call BS on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Ah, now I see. You are trying to sell some Alouettes. Insruction in an R44 could be done at $250 an hour and still make a profit flying 100 hours a month. The engines in the Robinsons have reliability on par with turbine engines because of the derating. Insurance on an R44 is around $11,000 a year. How much is it for full coverage on an Alouette? Like I said before, I am not saying the R44 can replace the Alouette or do its job. However, to claim that it cost less to operate an Alouette compared to an R44.....well, I just have to call BS on that one.No, I do not want to sell my Alouettes. As a matter of fact I'll probably be investing in a couple more, myself.Insurance on the Alouette is right at $9,500.00 per year per ship. We do get a little multiple ship discount. I do not know of anyone that does instruction in the 44 for $250.00 per hour, that's more like the rates currently for the 22. I mentioned the Alouettes for sale because I've been shopping around for another ship. I would not be involved in the sale, just would provide the contact. We have made several pre buy inspections for other owners. The direct operating cost of the Alouette is about $275.00 per hour. I do not know what it is on the 44. Again, I do not sell Alouettes. I buy and work them.Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtcobra66 Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Ah, now I see. You are trying to sell some Alouettes. Insruction in an R44 could be done at $250 an hour and still make a profit flying 100 hours a month. The engines in the Robinsons have reliability on par with turbine engines because of the derating. Insurance on an R44 is around $11,000 a year. How much is it for full coverage on an Alouette? Like I said before, I am not saying the R44 can replace the Alouette or do its job. However, to claim that it cost less to operate an Alouette compared to an R44.....well, I just have to call BS on that one. I'm assuming Pathfinder is $11,000 a year. You have to realize that if you do have an accident/incident, there are a LOT of hidden costs with pathfinder, and bossman is right in that with most "real" (for lack of a better term) insurance companies, there is barely a difference in an r44 premium compared to an alouette, mostly it is determined by the hull value. With pathfinder, if you have an accident and ball up the helicopter or end up putting it in a lake, you pay all the costs to have it retrieved and brought to the California facility (this can obviously cost thousands). Your liability coverage is less than you can get through US-based insurance companies, and from what I understand is split to cover Robinson also. Your hull depreciates, which I believe is meant to prevent people from rolling over helicopters instead of doing expensive overhauls (probably not a bad idea), but that still costs you money, and if you need to pay back a loan you may be short-changed. Other insurance is agreed value, so you will get what the aircraft is worth to you or to your bank. Not all insurance companies look favorably at Robinsons either, W. Brown won't even write them. End rant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volition Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Someday I'll give those Alouettes a try!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Someday I'll give those Alouettes a try!! If an Alouette's DOC's are $275 then you have to fly 380 hours a year just to cover the cost of insurance. What do you pay the instructors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500pilot Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 RockyMountainPilot, just curious but are you currently flying turbines or pistons? Dont take any offense but PM me if you want. Just wondering about your background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 RockyMountainPilot, just curious but are you currently flying turbines or pistons? Dont take any offense but PM me if you want. Just wondering about your background. I fly both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyby_heli Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) If an Alouette's DOC's are $275 then you have to fly 380 hours a year just to cover the cost of insurance. What do you pay the instructors?My guess is they don't use the alouettes for instruction only. So if they can do commercial work in addition they are probably getting paid more than $300 an hour. Oh, by the way....i would love to see the school doing training in an R-44 for $250. They have one big surpirse coming up after about 2200 hours. Most schools can barely make it when charging $250 for the R-22/S300. It's not only the operating costs of the aircraft (which will be higher than published), it's hanger, utilities, cost of money, wages, advertising, inventory, office supplies, tools, extraordinary costs and all the other stuff people never think about! Edited January 30, 2007 by flyby_heli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 My guess is they don't use the alouettes for instruction only. So if they can do commercial work in addition they are probably getting paid more than $300 an hour. Oh, by the way....i would love to see the school doing training in an R-44 for $250. They have one big surpirse coming up after about 2200 hours. Most schools can barely make it when charging $250 for the R-22/S300. It's not only the operating costs of the aircraft (which will be higher than published), it's hanger, utilities, cost of money, wages, advertising, inventory, office supplies, tools, extraordinary costs and all the other stuff people never think about! I didn't say I know of a school operating an R44 for $250 an hour, but it is possible and profitable. The DOC's of an R44 is around $100 an hour. If you fly 100 hours a month, that is 10K to make payments, insurance, hangar, utilities, advrtising, wages, etc. With the high demand of flight training, why would a company charge $250 for an R44. They can charge $350 or $400 because there are plenty of people to pay it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 If an Alouette's DOC's are $275 then you have to fly 380 hours a year just to cover the cost of insurance. What do you pay the instructors?The insurance is included in the DOC. We get $300.00 per hour for the aircraft, and $40.00 per hour for the instructor. Of this, the instructor gets $25.00 per hour, flight or ground. After solo it is $300.00 per hour. You can come back and rent for $300.00 per hour. This is wet. The instructors also receive a salary, for the other commercial work that we do.bossman Someday I'll give those Alouettes a try!! You are more than welcome to come try the Alouettes. I'm sure you will like them.bossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500pilot Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Bossman, sounds like you have a great deal going at your school for students. Its also nice to see that someone can still make a profit on a turbine at those rates. You hit the nail on the head about the aquisition cost being much less than the 44 and being able to use the savings for fuel. I wish I had something like that when I learned how to fly many moons ago. (135 per hour for 22 or 300) If I ever make it that way from NY I'd have to look you up and see about maybe flying one of those. I notice you also have Enstroms, again a great aircraft to train. I flew those for about 500hours and loved them. Curiousity is what are the main life limited times on the Aloutte? I wonder if this helps in keeping the costs down? I know that the Enstrom has very few limited componets which help offset the operating costs. I think it was the T/R blades/transmission, Main gearbox and the clutch pulley were the major ones that I can remember. About the main problem we had were the lamiflex couplings always going bad. Made for almost daily track and balances. Great reading this thread is. I think I'll stay on the sidelines though as it seems like theres already alot of passion going on for both sides of the debate. Still I will always take a turbine over a piston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 500,Feel free to drop by anytime. We are here 7 days a week. I'll even take you around the patch in the Huey and let you fly the only helicopter ever built. That statement should keep things stirred for awhile. There is always passion in the discussions about helicopters. We have not had very good luck with the Enstrom. She is currently in mothballs. The turbines have pretty much taken over our operation. Of course, the fire fighting with the Huey is always a big part of our seasonal work. We all love that old bird. The most hassel on the Alouette's is the tail rotor grips. They are a 450 hr. OH component. You pretty much have to stick by this. Constant lube and oil of the TR driveshaft is also a must. Everything else is pretty much like the rest of the industry, ranging from 1000 hrs. to on condition. These machines have been flying since 1953 and have the best safety record in the industry. A lot of them have been built and a lot are still flying. They are used all over the world.bossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cars10c Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 BossmanThank you for all your educational posts referring to the alouette 2. In my original post i did'nt mention a particular helicopter, the alouette 2 was exactly what i had in mind, i worked on them and had some sticktime in them 25+ years ago in the german army. If i am going to own a helicopter its got to be a turbine.I agree with your statement about the Huey we were using the UH1D now thats a great ship!i am going to contact you re: some transition time in the alouette!Tx cars10c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cars10c Posted February 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Check this out this guy is something else! http://www.glumbert.com/media/aerobatics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Cars,Be glad to have you come by anytime. The video was great.bossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cars10c Posted February 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Cars,Be glad to have you come by anytime. The video was great.bossman bossmani am gonna wait for the weather to warm up a little! carsten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 On another thread we had a link to that video and someone said that they had heard/read, that pilot was killed in a crash awhile back. Sad, he seemed to have some great skills and guts..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cars10c Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 On another thread we had a link to that video and someone said that they had heard/read, that pilot was killed in a crash awhile back.Sad, he seemed to have some great skills and guts..... I did some research on this the pilots name is Reiner Wilke he was seen in bavaria last month! doesnt sound dead to me, he is also a co-producer of a helicopter video game called the Hexagon Kartell .here is another link to one more of his stunts. http://tvtotal.prosieben.de/show/specials/raab_in_gefahr/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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