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Posted

I've done the 'search' already and I really can't find the answer I'm looking for...

 

What is the most cost effective way to get 1000hrs PIC (no turbine) time without going through the CFI-CFII route? I am a IT professional who doesn't have time to take students out. I would be paying for it all myself.

 

After getting my PPL, what's the most cost effective airframe to fly to get my intrument rating?

 

How many hours do I need to get my Commercial ticket?

 

When I was researching getting my fixed-wing licensing, I remember some people saying that purchasing an old Cessna-152 with a group of other prospective-pilots. Is there a Helo equivalent to that? I know that the R-22 isn't IFR rated, so would it be a waste to purchasing one for the sake of loggging hours?

 

Thanks.

Posted

You can do instrument training in an R-22 you just cant fly in IMC. So no I dont think it would be a waste to purchase one. For commercial you need 100 hours PIC. There are requirements on how many hours are night, night cross country ect. I suggest you check out the FarAim for all the requirements.

Posted
You can do instrument training in an R-22 you just cant fly in IMC. So no I dont think it would be a waste to purchase one. For commercial you need 100 hours PIC. There are requirements on how many hours are night, night cross country ect. I suggest you check out the FarAim for all the requirements.

 

Thanks, ChprPlt... That's the answer I was looking for.

Posted (edited)
I've done the 'search' already and I really can't find the answer I'm looking for...

 

What is the most cost effective way to get 1000hrs PIC (no turbine) time without going through the CFI-CFII route? I am a IT professional who doesn't have time to take students out. I would be paying for it all myself.

 

After getting my PPL, what's the most cost effective airframe to fly to get my intrument rating?

 

How many hours do I need to get my Commercial ticket?

 

When I was researching getting my fixed-wing licensing, I remember some people saying that purchasing an old Cessna-152 with a group of other prospective-pilots. Is there a Helo equivalent to that? I know that the R-22 isn't IFR rated, so would it be a waste to purchasing one for the sake of loggging hours?

 

Thanks.

 

1000 hours as a Private Pilot sounds to me like about 950 hours of bad habits. I personally would not hire, or recommend for hire, anyone that had 1000hrs without instructing. There's a reason the industry is structured the way that it is. Instructing is the only job that you're going to get at low hours where you get to perform all of the fundamental maneuvers on almost a daily basis. Not only do you get to demonstrate them, you have to demonstrate them to a commercial standard. Also, you have to teach ground school, which will force you to maintain a high level of knowledge with all things helicopter related, something you won't have to worry about flying tours, or whatever else you might do. Make a sacrifice, go teach, and pop out at 1000 hrs a much better, and more well rounded pilot.

Edited by nsdqjr
Posted
1000 hours as a Private Pilot sounds to me like about 950 hours of bad habits. I personally would not hire, or recommend for hire, anyone that had 1000hrs without instructing. There's a reason the industry is structured the way that it is. Instructing is the only job that you're going to get at low hours where you get to perform all of the fundamental maneuvers on almost a daily basis. Not only do you get to demonstrate them, you have to demonstrate them to a commercial standard. Also, you have to teach ground school, which will force you to maintain a high level of knowledge with all things helicopter related, something you won't have to worry about flying tours, or whatever else you might do. Make a sacrifice, go teach, and pop out at 1000 hrs a much better, and more well rounded pilot.

What about military pilots. Most have never instructed and seem to be well rounded.

bossman

Posted
1000 hours as a Private Pilot sounds to me like about 950 hours of bad habits. I personally would not hire, or recommend for hire, anyone that had 1000hrs without instructing. There's a reason the industry is structured the way that it is. Instructing is the only job that you're going to get at low hours where you get to perform all of the fundamental maneuvers on almost a daily basis.

 

Wow, thats breathtakingly arrogant. That puts a whole lot of pilots into the subpar group. While I agree that instructing will usually help a person get and maintain a high level of proficiency, it does not always mean the instructor is a good pilot. I have run into a few instructors who (IMHO) left a lot to be desired when it came to their flying skills. I have run into pilots who do not hold an instructors rating who are outstanding pilots.

 

The reality is that a lot of people have to get the instructors rating so they can get paid poverty wages while they risk their lives to build flight hours to the point they are able to get that first 'paying' job. The military, some law enforcement and a few other jobs allow a pilot who is not independently wealthy get to the 1000 hour mark without having to get the instructor rating. I would not go so far as to class all of them into the 'bad habits' group. There may be some, but that holds true throughout the industry.

 

To Bob, I would call up some of the major 141 schools and ask the folks at the school for some answers to your questions. Paying for the time yourself is going to be a major cash outflow. I am not sure what you are looking for when you complete your 1000 hours of flying, but I would check with whichever employer you are interested in working for to make sure that your 1000 hours are going to put you in enough of a favorable position that he or she will look at you when it comes time to hire.

 

Good luck,

Jeff

Posted (edited)

How many hours do I need to get my Commercial ticket?

 

© For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least--

 

Nsqdjr, I would agree with you 100%, but it seems the industry does not as I found out the hard way. Instructing is not generally given the respect that you and I beleive it should.

 

 

Buy a cheap autogyro, hours are logable as a helicopter I htink...

 

I don't think this is true.

 

Most regulations pertain to 'Category, class and type (if required).'

 

Category - Rotorcraft

Class - Helicopter or Gyroplane.

 

You'll see 61.129© is the requirements for helicopter rating, and 61.129(d) the requirements for gyroplane rating.

 

 

(d) For a gyroplane rating. A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and gyroplane class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot (of which 5 hours may have been accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a gyroplane) that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 25 hours must be in gyroplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least--

 

Thus flying gyroplane is not the same as 'helicopter'.

 

Joker

Edited by joker
Posted

I've heard of a few people who got jobs with 200 hours and no CFI. They weren't people that I ever knew personally, but I heard from other people. So I don't know how true it is, and couldn't get any details, like who the operator is or how they got the job. I think for one guy, he had done most of his training in the R44 instead of the R22, and the operator was using the R44. I don't know if he personally knew the operator. I suspect he must have. Another guy, I heard got a job with law enforcement.

 

Does this make sense? Has anyone one this forum gotten a job with only 200 hours - and NOT having been a personal friend or acquaintence of the operator?

 

I'm also wondering, do any operators ever put low-time pilots in the cockpit with the "real" pilot, letting the low-time guy get experience with the high-time pilot there at controls to be sure everything is OK? In a situation like this, I wouldn't expect the low-time pilot to be paid much (if anything) since he's basically just training, but it would be free hours anyway. The operator would benefit as well, by having a possible successor or back-up pilot who would be intimately familiar with the particular ship and operation. This wouldn't work in certain operations, such as where all space needs to be utilized by passengers or cargo. But I suspect there are operations where there could be two pilots, without loss of revenue.

 

As a 200-hour non-CFI pilot, I would be interested in possible alternatives to the CFI route - if they exist.

Posted

tonymount,

A lot of commercial operators will take the low time pilots and let them fly second seat to gain time and experience. This is how we train our pilots to do the job. We do this a lot with pipeline patrol and firefighting. On pipeline patrol the second seat is the computer operator, and on the firefighting they operate the bucket controls. We like having two pilots on board. The second seat gets to fly as much as is safe and possible. One day they are asked to become PIC of the mission and get to break in another second seat. We do not base our decisions to upgrade to PIC on the amount of hours. We base it on the ability to perform the job safely and efficently. Our insurance company allows us to be the judge of when the pilots are ready, not numbers in a logbook. By the way, we pay them to fly second seat.

 

joker,

I see that you realize that the 1000 hour CFI is not always the choice for the mission. Commercial operators like to see time that was acquired by flying outside the structure of the flight training environment. I've put 1000 hour CFI's in the seat to fly the pipeline profile and they were scared to death the first few missions. Yes, I call each flight a mission, it's a hard habit to break. Each and every patrol and each and every fire is different. I want pilots that I can look at and know that when I let them strap on my moving parts they are going to bring them home, if at all possible. I want a maintenance chief that will look at me and say, "this machine needs to stay home today because we need to service or repair something". It's the only way to make it work for the long haul.

 

nsdqjr,

I do not think that you get the experience necessary for the job by being a CFI. Yes you do learn traffic patterns and how to talk on the radio. If you plan on flying big wheels to and from large airports, this comes in handy. I will give you that you become good at autos in the machine you are teaching in, but I like to become good at autos in everything I crawl into. That's one thing that we stress very much, practice an auto everyday you fly. I know that keeping a student from killing you is not always easy. Try flying NOE 50 foot above the trees, at 40 knots, keeping a pipe under you that at best you maybe can see every now and then, on a route you have not flown before and not knowing where the wires are. We've had several pilots come back and say that this is not for them, and it is not for everyone. So you see, 1000 hours flying students is still a 1000 hours flying students. Give me 500 hours flying pipe.

 

bossman

Posted

Heloplt, I can appreciate your comments, and your perception of arrogance. The problem is, that in this industry, as you well know, you don't have the luxury of failure. Sure, my statement is a gross generalization, but one I personally am willing to accept. As you stated, there are plenty of low time guys, or high time private pilots that fly very well; however, for every one of those you're going to find many others that have left school and learned their own shortcuts and tricks. That's the part that bothers me. Back in the Army days we had a saying: Everytime you allow a lower standard to pass you set a new standard. I like the instruction route because it forces the instructor to maintain a standard. I'm not saying all instructors are great pilots, I know better than that, but I would be willing to line them up face to face with high time private pilots and make a wager any day of the week. My desire is to hear of my students dying happily their beds several years from now. I don't think cutting low time pilots loose on pipeline patrol or other types of more demanding operation is the best way to build habits condusive to a long career.

 

Bossman, quit insigating. I'm sorry if you feel as though the things I am saying might affect your business, but get over it. Also, you can stop throwing the military thing around anytime you like. I've been there and done that, it doesn't impress me. Besides losing plenty of my own friends in combat operations and training missions throughout the years, and bringing my own bit of enemy metal home with me, I lost my father in a Blackhawk crash when I was 9. I know how it works, better than you know. Advertise your business in the classifieds where it belongs.

Posted

Nice Topic!! In Canada you need 250 hours of PIC time to get your instructor's rating. Therefore, almost nobody gets his or her instructor's rating. It's the other way around in Canada, if you become an instructor, and accumulate the 1000-hour mark instructing, no major company wants to hire you, because you have no real industry experience!! Geeez, I would never want a newly licensed guy to teach me how to fly, autos, etc!!

Just my 2 cents!!

Posted (edited)

One thing I've found, is that a lot of my pilots, after a few hundred hours of terrain flight need practice with the basics; hovering, traffic patterns, approaches. The...what's the word for it?...aggressive, or maybe some might say, "sloppy" techniques we allow or utilize due to speed and transitions don't transfer well to the ATC environment. I take more pride in a guy who can do both the aggressive maneuvering at terrain flight as well as switch it off to demonstrate control and ability back at the airfield. Because, the job demands it.

 

I had an old pilot (well over the 10K hour mark, probably closer to 15K) tell me that anybody who practices terrain flight all the time can air taxi all over the place, but a true professional still knows how to hover down the taxiline.

 

Try flying NOE 50 foot above the trees, at 40 knots,
Try 10 feet or less over the tops of buildings, [edit]as fast as you can go,[/edit] dodging antennas, wires and enemy fire, although you're never quite sure just where the fire is coming from.

 

Where I come from, we don't call 50 feet above anything, "NOE."

Edited by Linc
Posted
1000 hours as a Private Pilot sounds to me like about 950 hours of bad habits. I personally would not hire, or recommend for hire, anyone that had 1000hrs without instructing. There's a reason the industry is structured the way that it is. Instructing is the only job that you're going to get at low hours where you get to perform all of the fundamental maneuvers on almost a daily basis. Not only do you get to demonstrate them, you have to demonstrate them to a commercial standard. Also, you have to teach ground school, which will force you to maintain a high level of knowledge with all things helicopter related, something you won't have to worry about flying tours, or whatever else you might do. Make a sacrifice, go teach, and pop out at 1000 hrs a much better, and more well rounded pilot.

 

 

What if you are a CFI with bad habits because you had a CFI with the same bad habits, who's going to correct you, your zero hour student who will soon have 200 hours and be insturcting with your bad habits?

 

I agree with the ground school though, I learn something new or see it in a new light each time i read those gosh darn books.

Posted
1000 hours as a Private Pilot sounds to me like about 950 hours of bad habits. I personally would not hire, or recommend for hire, anyone that had 1000hrs without instructing

 

Now that is hilarious. One could just as easily generalize that a 1000 hour instructor has done nothing by fly circuits in perfect weather, and about 1/2 that time he/she wasn't even at the controls. (and no I'm not making that generalization, but we've all heard it before from others)

 

Also, you have to teach ground school, which will force you to maintain a high level of knowledge with all things helicopter related

 

It's every pilot's duty to maintain a high level of knowledge. This comment is insulting to myself and every other pilot who isn't an instructor :blink:

 

Make a sacrifice, go teach, and pop out at 1000 hrs a much better, and more well rounded pilot.

 

Exactly how does instructing alone make you more well rounded? Gimme a break.

 

A 1000 hour pilot.... is a 1000 hour pilot.

Posted

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I feel that you could probably take 90% of the 4-500 hour commercial and instrument rated piston helicopter pilots. Give them 4 to 6 weeks of advanced training in almost any helicopter, light, medium or heavy. Let them work with a senior pilot for 6 months, and you would have a safe, competent pilot with less than 1000 hours total time.

I don't know where the 1000 hours came from, or when the industry decided that instructing was the best way to build time, but it has become the accepted method in the US.

 

Can you get hired with 300 hours? maybe, this industry is still 90% WHO you know, and 10% WHAT you know. I do know of a couple guys flying an S-76 with ~300 hours but it is defiantly not the norm........

Lucky B%$(@^*$ :D

 

Fly safe

Clark B)

Posted
How many hours do I need to get my Commercial ticket?

 

© For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least--

 

Nsqdjr, I would agree with you 100%, but it seems the industry does not as I found out the hard way. Instructing is not generally given the respect that you and I beleive it should.

I don't think this is true.

 

Most regulations pertain to 'Category, class and type (if required).'

 

Category - Rotorcraft

Class - Helicopter or Gyroplane.

 

You'll see 61.129© is the requirements for helicopter rating, and 61.129(d) the requirements for gyroplane rating.

(d) For a gyroplane rating. A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and gyroplane class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot (of which 5 hours may have been accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a gyroplane) that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 25 hours must be in gyroplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least--

 

Thus flying gyroplane is not the same as 'helicopter'.

 

Joker

 

Joker,

 

Thanks for the good info, I wasn't too sure..

 

Paul

Posted
I don't know where the 1000 hours came from
I don't know, either, because the last time I talked to anyone on the civilian side of the equation, they were talking 1500 hours being required.
Posted

nsdqjr,

Not advertising, just letting you know that I don't agree that the 1000 hour instructor is God's gift to the industry. As far as the military stuff goes, you'll have to live with it in my comments and actions, it's all I know. If it offends you, so what! I'm sorry to here about your father. I too have had a lot of friends and family that have given their all for this country, and by the way, the foreign metal is not all that heavy.

Mike

Posted

I for one find it silly that these types of personal attacks are tolerated to and from anyone. I frequent sportbike forums which is a mostly egotistical younger males with crotchrockets (myself included), and we all treat each other with far more respect than certain "professionals" on this board. Some of you should be ashamed with the way you convey this field to new/prospective pilots.

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