206 Crash Delaware

[Gomer Pylot]

This customer certainly took his business elsewhere, for good. The helicopter company's reputation certainly suffered, in addition to the business lost forever, and the lost helicopter, not to mention the lost pilot, which many companies, unfortunately, consider just the cost of doing business. I know nothing about this company, but obviously the pilot felt pressure, real or just perceived, and the bottom line is that helicopter pilots must learn to do what Nancy Reagan advised - just say no. One of the primary things we have to do is learn to say NO! loudly and often. To quote another Hollywood personality, "A man has to know his limitations". That goes just as strongly for a woman.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Gomer Pylot

[Wally]

I have talked with friends of this pilot - and they think that this is most likely a case of a really good pilot making a very poor decision based on lots of pressure from a very rich client with no aviation experience who just "had to get back home now". She was a young female pilot, he was a rich real estate developer in his mid 40's who was a valuable client to the company she worked for. Those of us who work for the government or the military probably do not understand this too well because our jobs are not threatened if we abort a mission for safety reasons. Pilots working in private industry should not feel threatened either, but if they lose a client, that hurts their bottom line. It is incumbent upon the employers to let their pilots know that they will back them 100% when they make smart safety decisions - even if the rich customer takes his business elsewhere.

 

That gets to an important point whenever we're trying to analyze an accident. Generally speaking a rational pilot made the decision that ended badly. WHY?

I agree with "Gomer Pylot" in his comment on the other accident being discussed here, the previous one involving fatalities- it was such an obviously bad decision that one could either remark on it as a darwinian event, or wonder what made a rational pilot think it evenly remotely an option. Having scared myself way, way too often since I soloed in '68, it's obvious to me that:

IMC in a VFR aircraft is dangerous;

Commencing that operation from a remote location, is russian roulette;

And, finally, doing that, at night, is russian roulette with "6 beans in the wheel"- You're going to LOSE, there is NO element of chance involved.

That's the reason for the crash. Pleading "pressure" makes an excuse for what is obviously a stupid move. Making it a mysterious, complicated event obscures the lesson, which is: IMC in a VFR aircraft is dangerous; ad hoc, even more so; at night, it's not dangerous- it's deadly, period.

 

To the point of this thread: All LZ's have wires. Prove otherwise, before you attempt to operate at the LZ. Operate as though the wires were still there, unseen.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Wally

[Gomer Pylot]

All LZ's have wires.

Yep. If not, they will have them. You have to assume they're there, somewhere, hiding from you. They might not have been there yesterday, but don't bet your life that some didn't go up overnight. Helicopter catchers are everywhere.

[Linc]

I have talked with friends of this pilot - and they think that this is most likely a case of a really good pilot making a very poor decision based on lots of pressure from a very rich client with no aviation experience who just "had to get back home now". She was a young female pilot, he was a rich real estate developer in his mid 40's who was a valuable client to the company she worked for. Those of us who work for the government or the military probably do not understand this too well because our jobs are not threatened if we abort a mission for safety reasons. Pilots working in private industry should not feel threatened either, but if they lose a client, that hurts their bottom line. It is incumbent upon the employers to let their pilots know that they will back them 100% when they make smart safety decisions - even if the rich customer takes his business elsewhere.

Speak for yourself if you must but watch which of the "those of us" you try to include in your crowd. If I second guess a weather call it is literally weighing the choice of whether the grunt in the firefight goes home or I do. That is not making a call lightly, simply because I've reached some "safety" threshold, and I don't think that whether some rich guy gets a comfy ride home or not holds a candle to the stress of the decision. Edited April 5, 2007 by Linc

[BillyBob]

Speak for yourself if you must but watch which of the "those of us" you try to include in your crowd. If I second guess a weather call it is literally weighing the choice of whether the grunt in the firefight goes home or I do. That is not making a call lightly, simply because I've reached some "safety" threshold, and I don't think that whether some rich guy gets a comfy ride home or not holds a candle to the stress of the decision.

 

 

I've been in both situations and the Army calls (invovling flying to troops in contact or medevac escort) were easier- I was damned well going unless something VERY extreme weather-wise was happening or the NVS wasn't working and then it just was a sprint to another aircraft. My personal risk assement and my own decision matrix was totally different in combat and I mentally resigned myself to that the day I got on the charter aircraft at green ramp on Pope. In the Army there was also a system put in place (RAV) to affect your call-whether you liked it or not. Malign the risk assesment all you want but that is the tool you had when there is the sort of weather that is a death sentence, besides of course the laws of physics.

(no I wasn't a safety geek either)

 

 

In the civilian world it becomes a game of trying to keep a job to pay your mortgage and provide your wife health insurance. Do you really want to move again and explain why you left so quickly? My family and career are very important to me and their preservation are just as stressful. The danger and stress, IMO, comes from always butting up against the risks and trying to not become accustomed to accepting a continuously increassing level of risk to the point where you finally excede you ability and lady luck gives up on you. This is where minimums come in to play. No, I didn't bend in fact I left the company after two hitches. Not worth the stress. I always smiled and explained the limitations involved and let the respective person start venting. The call in my opinion is just as stressful because you are on your own usually and you are also acting as the sole 'face' of the company with people that never hear 'NO' - or like to pretend that they don't. It was soooo mentally draining to listen to the off handed remarks about how you are 'being watched' and how the person making the decisions is re-evalutating which company to go with next contract.

 

 

My favorite was the dis-belief in crew duty time. Your crew days will be pushed all the times and they never heard of crew days. I once had two grey haired guys telling me how much money they were spending every hour (10K) and pressuring me to just let the crew day issue slide so I "didn't waste all of their money". The funny things is that nothing would happen if I flew two minutes over the max legal allowed but if anything got bent I was one minute over... now I contributed....and career(mortgage,health ins) are at risk

Oh well it is all opinions and we know what they say about them...

Edited April 5, 2007 by BillyBob

[Linc]

Read the report. If you don't think it was extreme, "weather-wise", and if you were to fly legally blind on the NVS with that kind of weather, it would be a miracle for you to survive. She was flying without any aided vision system, approaching night in deteriorating weather. No miracle for her.

 

My point is that my decision is made before I strap on the helicopter, and it has nothing to do with RAV or the Army's systems or rules. I have a rule, I will not needlessly risk my crew or aircraft for a questionable outcome of the FLIGHT. The fight can be questionable as to its outcome all year long, but the flight will be a guaranteed thing pickup to touchdown; barring mechanical failure or the actions of other aircraft. I don't blindly rush into a flight, and do my best never to blindly rush into a fight, either, but when we're doing both, chances are the flight never gets us to the fight.

 

Give me a human enemy any day. I can face bullets because I have a better chance of surviving than pushing VFR in IFR conditions. The terrain has a pK of 1.0, it will win every time. Seems that there really is NO difference between civilian and military, just that there are a lot of pilots out there who have not identified the enemy.

[BillyBob]

Read the report. If you don't think it was extreme, "weather-wise", and if you were to fly legally blind on the NVS with that kind of weather, it would be a miracle for you to survive. She was flying without any aided vision system, approaching night in deteriorating weather. No miracle for her.

 

My point is that my decision is made before I strap on the helicopter, and it has nothing to do with RAV or the Army's systems or rules. I have a rule, I will not needlessly risk my crew or aircraft for a questionable outcome of the FLIGHT. The fight can be questionable as to its outcome all year long, but the flight will be a guaranteed thing pickup to touchdown; barring mechanical failure or the actions of other aircraft. I don't blindly rush into a flight, and do my best never to blindly rush into a fight, either, but when we're doing both, chances are the flight never gets us to the fight.

 

Give me a human enemy any day. I can face bullets because I have a better chance of surviving than pushing VFR in IFR conditions. The terrain has a pK of 1.0, it will win every time. Seems that there really is NO difference between civilian and military, just that there are a lot of pilots out there who have not identified the enemy.

 

Did I say I supported her decision? Or would do the same given the same circumstance as a civilian?

 

 

My comment was on the Mil vs Civ. post you wrote. Go back and read mine, specificly where I stated the difference in risk acceptance as a military person.

[Linc]

Go back and read mine. If you would like to say that in YOUR experience, you didn't experience pressure like you do in the civilian world. I would have no problem with that. There is NO WAY you could know the experience of more than 2-300 pilots out of over 3-4000 in the entire Army at one time, so you can't say that it is easier in the rest of the military or even the government as a whole.

 

Did you get pressured by your chain of command or see anyone pressured to fly in questionable weather because it would look good on the command or have your patriotism questioned if you didn't? I've SEEN it! More than once. I've seen guys die because of it, and I've seen guys get away with it. So, take all your crap about how the military system is better with its RAV and NVS and that those pressures don't exist in the perfect military system and park them somewhere shady.

 

Don't try and cram it down my throat that I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about or that somehow the same personalities that become owners and supervisors in the civilian world and earn their money by climbing over the bodies of the people that work for them are somehow from a different universe than the people who build their careers in the military by doing the exact same thing.

 

THAT is my point. You don't speak for me. You probably don't speak for the half dozen or so crews that have strewn themselves all over Iraq and Afghanistan for the same reasons that the pilot in question introduced her 407 to a Delaware field, or the crews that fly beyond established fighter management guidelines because there's more mission than pilots and aircraft. But that hasn't stopped you or Rotorwash from attempting to.

[BillyBob]

Go back and read mine. If you would like to say that in YOUR experience, you didn't experience pressure like you do in the civilian world. I would have no problem with that. There is NO WAY you could know the experience of more than 2-300 pilots out of over 3-4000 in the entire Army at one time, so you can't say that it is easier in the rest of the military or even the government as a whole.

 

Did you get pressured by your chain of command or see anyone pressured to fly in questionable weather because it would look good on the command or have your patriotism questioned if you didn't? I've SEEN it! More than once. I've seen guys die because of it, and I've seen guys get away with it. So, take all your crap about how the military system is better with its RAV and NVS and that those pressures don't exist in the perfect military system and park them somewhere shady.

 

Don't try and cram it down my throat that I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about or that somehow the same personalities that become owners and supervisors in the civilian world and earn their money by climbing over the bodies of the people that work for them are somehow from a different universe than the people who build their careers in the military by doing the exact same thing.

 

THAT is my point. You don't speak for me. You probably don't speak for the half dozen or so crews that have strewn themselves all over Iraq and Afghanistan for the same reasons that the pilot in question introduced her 407 to a Delaware field, or the crews that fly beyond established fighter management guidelines because there's more mission than pilots and aircraft. But that hasn't stopped you or Rotorwash from attempting to.

I don't know where the hell you're coming from but it isn't worth my time any more. Take the tude over to JH. WTFO?

ETS, get a civ job and confuse yourself with the facts. Until then I'll skip yours and you can do the same for me. Unless you can point me to the 'ignore function'.

 

And I never, EVER did or would say I speak for you, I have standards.

And I recently went to the garden of stones to see a guy I know planted because of VMC into IMC so spare me the melodrama, nancy.

Good luck HERO

Edited April 6, 2007 by BillyBob

[Linc]

Those of us who work for the government or the military probably do not understand this too well because our jobs are not threatened if we abort a mission for safety reasons.

That is not making a call lightly, simply because I've reached some "safety" threshold, and I don't think that whether some rich guy gets a comfy ride home or not holds a candle to the stress of the decision.

I've been in both situations and the Army calls (invovling flying to troops in contact or medevac escort) were easier

You don't know where I'm coming from or getting all this?

 

It's not a matter of confusing myself with facts that you assume I don't have access to, it's not about being a hero, it's about being a professional helicopter pilot. If it is so different, and so much better on the military side, then why did you get out?

 

ETS? You mean like quit, throw my family in jeopardy and not know where I will get, "...a job to pay your mortgage and provide your wife health insurance. Do you really want to move again and explain why you left so quickly? My family and career are very important to me and their preservation are just as stressful." And, no, that isn't going to happen with me getting this close to retirement. Oh, that would be more pressure.

 

Welcome to the profession. True, my job is less in question as far as the immediacy of my leaving, but the amount of pressure I have to accept in order to keep flying isn't anything different. Is your motivation to keep a job or to keep flying? You can always get a different job, but what you really want to keep doing is flying. If it was ONLY about money, you never would've picked flying helicopters in the civilian world as a job. I've worked at McDonald's before and will do it again if that's what it takes to keep my family with food, shelter, and clothing. I'm not scared about "a job", I have pressure about whether or not I will continue to fly.