Schweizers VS. Robbies

[BLG123]

Out of the two training helicopters Schweizers and Robbies; if one is better for a career-minded student then the other to train in, then which one would it be and why?

 

there may not be one better than the other but if thats the case please let me know.

[jehh]

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter what you train in, they are both helicopters, they all pretty much fly the same.

 

However, if you're concerned about finding employment after you're done training, then I'd suggest doing some training in both. We split the difference, doing the first half of training in the Schweizer, the second half in the R-22. This way our CFIs are qualified to fly both types of helicopters.

[BLG123]

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter what you train in, they are both helicopters, they all pretty much fly the same.

 

However, if you're concerned about finding employment after you're done training, then I'd suggest doing some training in both. We split the difference, doing the first half of training in the Schweizer, the second half in the R-22. This way our CFIs are qualified to fly both types of helicopters.

 

 

 

Whos WE??? i havnet signed anything yet.

[brushfire21]

Have you had a chance to do a search on this forums. Here are some threads that have been stickied in the FAQ's above:

 

The R-22 or Schweizer 300?

Debating what helo to train in? Check out these topics.

1. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...p;hl=need+help*

2. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...p;hl=need+help*

3. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...ic=3904&hl=

4. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...amp;?do=findComment&comment=45544

5. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...amp;hl=training

[jehh]

Whos WE??? i havnet signed anything yet.

 

Summit Helicopters in Addison, TX... We do the first half of the training in the Schweizer 300CB and the second half in the Robinson R-22. You'll end up with at least 50 hours in each type of helicopter.

 

Oh, and "signing" isn't required, we're pay-as-you-go, no big contract, nothing up front. Don't ever sign up for an entire course that you cannot get out of, we only want you training with us because we provide you great service, not because we have you in some contract.

 

Jason

[Sparker]

http://www.flymidwest.com/TrainingBirds.html

[fatnlazy]

Out of the two training helicopters Schweizers and Robbies; if one is better for a career-minded student then the other to train in, then which one would it be and why?

 

there may not be one better than the other but if thats the case please let me know.

 

There is a huge difference if you consider safety to be a factor. You are 3 times more likely to be in a fatal accident in a robbie, than in a S300, read the NTSB reports.

[jehh]

There is a huge difference if you consider safety to be a factor. You are 3 times more likely to be in a fatal accident in a robbie, than in a S300, read the NTSB reports.

 

I don't know that I'd agree with that...

 

Statistics often can be used to advance whatever argument you want them to.

 

Yes, R-22s are involved in more accidents than Schweizers, however they fly a lot more hours as well, so the exposure is higher. Robinson built more R-22s last year than Schweizer has ever built 300CBs. It is like saying that a Ford F-150 pickup is more deadly because more people die in them than in a Rolls Royce, completely ignoring the numbers difference.

 

A good example is Bristow Academy's safety record (formerly Helicopter Adventures)... They have had more accidents in the Schweizer than the R-22, does that make the Schweizer more dangerous? No, it means they operate 40 Schweizers and a half dozen R-22s, thus the exposure is different.

 

However, I think I've had this conversation with you before fatnlazy, and if I recall, you don't have any R-22 experience, you're making your judgements based on third party info... I've flown both and taught in both and I have found that most people who are harsh towards one or the other lack such experience.

[fatnlazy]

I don't know that I'd agree with that...

 

Statistics often can be used to advance whatever argument you want them to.

 

Yes, R-22s are involved in more accidents than Schweizers, however they fly a lot more hours as well, so the exposure is higher. Robinson built more R-22s last year than Schweizer has ever built 300CBs. It is like saying that a Ford F-150 pickup is more deadly because more people die in them than in a Rolls Royce, completely ignoring the numbers difference.

 

A good example is Bristow Academy's safety record (formerly Helicopter Adventures)... They have had more accidents in the Schweizer than the R-22, does that make the Schweizer more dangerous? No, it means they operate 40 Schweizers and a half dozen R-22s, thus the exposure is different.

 

However, I think I've had this conversation with you before fatnlazy, and if I recall, you don't have any R-22 experience, you're making your judgements based on third party info... I've flown both and taught in both and I have found that most people who are harsh towards one or the other lack such experience.

 

It doesn't matter how many 300's or r-22's have been built, my stats are per 100,000 flight hrs flown and it shows that you are 3 times more likely to have a fatal accident in an r-22. When I was in law enforcement we had many domestic abuse calls and no matter how many abused spouses you tried to help and let them know that they were in a dangerous situation, most did not listen and some paid the ultimate price. Now I've never been in an abusive relationship myself, but I still Know that they are very bad and can be sometimes fatal, so just because I've never flown a robbie, does not change the fact that they kill more people per 100,000 flight hrs than the S300.

 

Good day sir.

Guy

[jehh]

It doesn't matter how many 300's or r-22's have been built, my stats are per 100,000 flight hrs flown and it shows that you are 3 times more likely to have a fatal accident in an r-22. When I was in law enforcement we had many domestic abuse calls and no matter how many abused spouses you tried to help and let them know that they were in a dangerous situation, most did not listen and some paid the ultimate price. Now I've never been in an abusive relationship myself, but I still Know that they are very bad and can be sometimes fatal, so just because I've never flown a robbie, does not change the fact that they kill more people per 100,000 flight hrs than the S300.

 

Good day sir.

Guy

 

Per 100,000 hours flown in what time period? Using what numbers? Generated by whom?

 

Since there is no actual way to determine how many hours the fleet really flies in a year, those numbers are guesswork at best. They will also change quite a bit depending on what years you use for those numbers. The R-22 accident rate was horrible a decade ago, it has gotten a lot better with the SFAR.

[volition]

Yea, doe sthose stats include people with sfar, and robinson safety course??

[jtravis1]

just a quick note... This was an article done by HAI using UK stats for flight hours, which are more accurately kept then in the US. Here is the article. Dont shoot the messenger.

 

Statistics show R22 is as safe as a turbine

 

An analysis of Robinson R22 accidents performed using data from Britain’s Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has proven something Robinson designer and developer Frank Robinson has been saying for years: that in a level-playing-field comparison adjusted for flight hours, his R22 two-seat piston helo is at least as safe as, if not safer than, its leading competition, whether piston or turbine-powered.

 

The study examined British aviation safety records compiled over 15 years, starting in 1985 and ending in 2000. The sheer growth rate of the rapidly expanding Robinson in-service fleet finds itself reflected in the total numbers of estimated hours flown: in 1995, the UK Robinson fleet logged an estimated 99,393 flight hours, compared with a total of 197,576 for 2000. Over those years, just 15 fatal accidents were recorded among R22, R44, Schweizer 300/Hughes 269 and Bell JetRanger classes.

 

Among those aircraft over those years, that comparison group shows that 46.5 percent of total hours flown in the UK by single-engine rotorcraft were flown by R22s. That make and model of helicopter was involved in roughly one-third of all reported accidents and one-fifth of all fatal accidents. (The accident rates worked out to one reportable accident for every 7,515 hr flight time, and one fatal accident for every 115,213 flight hours)

 

Robinson’s chief competition in the ab initio training mission, the Schweizer 300/Hughes 269, in the UK flew fewer than one-tenth as many hours as the R22 (just 4.2 percent of the total UK helicopter hours flown) but was involved in 10 percent of the reportable accidents and 6.7 percent of the fatal accidents during the timeframe studied. The 300/269 fleet was involved in one reportable accident every 2,380 hr and one fatal every 30,939 hr, making it almost four times more dangerous than the R22.

 

In the case of the Bell JetRanger, the CAA numbers showed the world’s most ubiquitous turbine single to be involved in far fewer accidents overall, but when an accident did take place, it was far more likely to be fatal. The theories behind this higher rate are several. JetRangers tend to be operated at higher speeds (because they can be) and in more demanding environments (offshore, geological research, and so on). The JetRanger comes in second in terms of total CAA hours (26.4 percent), averaging just one out of every 10 accidents but, sadly, one out of every three fatal accidents. The JetRanger fleet averaged just one reportable accident for every 14,047 hr of flight, a safety rate twice as good as the R22’s, but averaged a fatal accident once every 39,903 hr, about three times worse than the R22.

 

Other helicopter makes and models flew what could be argued as statistically insignificant portions of the accident pie. For instance, Eurocopter’s AS 350 AStar, which logged 8.4 percent of the total hours listed between 1985 and 2000, accounted for 3.1 percent of the reportable accidents and reported just one fatal mishap.

 

Less common helicopters, such as the Robinson R44; MD Helicopters’ MD 500, the Enstrom line of the 28, 280 and 480; the Bell 47 and Eurocopter Gazelle barely notched 1 percent of the accident index, while the rates of lesser-knowns and newcomers such as the Brantley International Brantley B-2B and Eurocopter EC 120 also studied were not statistically significant. –B.W.

________________________________________

Aviation International News is a publication of The Convention News Co., Inc., P.O. Box 277, Midland Park, NJ, 07432. Copyright 2002. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission from The Convention News Co., Inc., is strictly prohibited. The Convention News Co., Inc., also publishes NBAA Convention News, HAI Convention News, EBACE Convention News, Paris 2003, Dubai 2003, Asian Aerospace 2002, Farnborough 2002, and AIN Alerts.

Edited May 20, 2007 by jtravis1

[fatnlazy]

I guess the old saying is true, you can lead a robbie pilot to water but you can't make him think.

[BLG123]

Nice posts everyone! I really appreciate all of the help here on virtical ref. I would really be lost with out it haha

[Petter]

Nice posts everyone! I really appreciate all of the help here on virtical ref. I would really be lost with out it haha

 

Hey BLG123, still no wiser on the Schweizer/robbie thing? hehe, I thought you got a couple of good answers. I did my private on the scweizer and am doing my instrument rating in the Robbie. they are quite different and there are a few factors to consider.

 

They are different to fly, the robbie is lighter, so you feel the wind a bit better, and I think it is a bit more twitcy. but alle helicopters will be different, the robbie has a governor, wich makes you a bit lazy, the schweizer doesn't, but it is a tad easier to hover on your early lessons. but then again the rpm in autorotations is harder to control on the robbie. so wich one makes you a better pilot? dunno, they are different.

 

The Robbie is faster and feels more powerful in flight (because it is lighter),but I really like the way everything is kind of over engineered in the scweizer. The components are bigger and more solid than the robbie even though it takes about the same stresses, so that's a good feeling. as you see above, the safety issue is debateable. The robbie is a very reliable aircraft, but when bad stuff happens in the robbie it happens allot faster (1.1 sec of inertia in your blades isn't allot).. so wich one to pick? I like flying the robbie better, it's fun. but I feel a bit safer in the scweizer, it seems solid.

 

What work do you have in mind after school? in the US there are a lot of scweisers, but theres way more robbies arround. when I go back home to norway for instance, There won't be any instructor jobs for a schweizer pilot.. also, alot of the time they won't hire you if you are more than 180 lb because of the weight limitations, the scweizer isn't as bothered by that and they ill hire heavier instructores .

 

To sum up. There's no saying wich one is better, they are different (ones a truck and ones a sportster but if you have the chance, train on both

Edited May 21, 2007 by Petter

[helifool]

Hey BLG123, still no wiser on the Schweizer/robbie thing? hehe, I thought you got a couple of good answers. I did my private on the scweizer and am doing my instrument rating in the Robbie. they are quite different and there are a few factors to consider.

 

They are different to fly, the robbie is lighter, so you feel the wind a bit better, and I think it is a bit more twitcy. but alle helicopters will be different, the robbie has a governor, wich makes you a bit lazy, the schweizer doesn't, but it is a tad easier to hover on your early lessons. but then again the rpm in autorotations is harder to controll on the robbie. so wich one makes you a better pilot? dunno, they are different.

 

The Robbie is faster and feels more powerful in flight (because it is lighter),but I really like the way everything is kind of over engineered in the scweizer. The components are bigger and more solid than the robbie even though it takes about the same stresses, so that's a good feeling. as you see above, the safety issue is debateable, but when bad stuff happens in the robbie it happens allot faster (1.1 sec of inertia in your blades isn't allot).. so wich one to pick? I like flying the robbie better, it's fun. but I feel a bit safer in the scweizer, it's solid.

 

What work do you have in mind after school? in the US there are a lot of scweisers, but theres way more robbies arround. when I go back home to norway for instance, There won't be any instructor jobs for a schweizer pilot.. also, alot of the time they won't hire you if you are more than 180 lb because of the weight limitations, the scweizer isn't as bothered by that and they ill hire heavier instructores .

 

To sum up. There's no saying wich one is better, they are different (ones a truck and ones a sportster but if you have the chance, train on both

 

Hey Peter I noticed your attending Bristow Academy in Titusville. I'm enrolling in the Professional Pilot Program and Ill be down there in August. Ive got a few questions and It would be awesome to talk to a student. If you don't mind my number is 907-209-5996. Thanks!

[Goldy]

I guess the old saying is true, you can lead a robbie pilot to water but you can't make him think.

 

 

Now you're making me laugh...not bad for a fat guy...

 

Honestly the problem with stats is manipulation. I believe that article while published by HAI, was actually written by Tim Tucker if I recall correctly..you know Tim...former Chief Pilot for Frank.....so it goes.

 

Truth is, the R 22 does require higher skills to fly than some other birds to maintain the same safety margin...and properly flown, is a pretty safe bird as it relates to mechanical failures....its the quirks that will get you if not properly managed..thats where the SFAR and safety school help....the BII model has a LOT more power margin than the B model...and the 44 RII even more.

 

Whatever you fly, fly it safely within limits.

 

Goldy (another fat guy)

[volition]

Best advice...If you get a chance to try both, do! Then take the one you feel more comfortable in!