Seat Hobbs

[TscottN]

ok here is the question..

 

if I fly for 1 1/2 hours from the time I lift off the ground to the time I set it back on the ground, how much time should the seat HOBBS indicate that I flew for?

 

Is this a straight time/indicator conversion or does it always indicate more than what you actually flew.?

 

BTW I am talking about a 300c helo.

 

Thanks in advance for any info on this.

[RockyMountainPilot]

ok here is the question..

 

if I fly for 1 1/2 hours from the time I lift off the ground to the time I set it back on the ground, how much time should the seat HOBBS indicate that I flew for?

 

Is this a straight time/indicator conversion or does it always indicate more than what you actually flew.?

 

BTW I am talking about a 300c helo.

 

Thanks in advance for any info on this.

 

Seat hobbs? Is this like an Armchair pilot? LOL

 

Hobbs is a clock based on real time, not like a tach that is based on RPM. The hobbs may be operated from oil pressure, master switch, collective switch, squat switch on the landing gear, or from gear retraction. Even though there are variations among these, they are all considered acceptable devices for logging time.

[mechanic]

Do you mean a collective or landing gear sw'd Hobbs? This way of wiring a Hobbs is for maint purposes. A Hobbs wired to engine oil press sw or master sw is for billing purpose's. I have flown aircraft that had one or the other and some actually had both.

 

There are 10 tenths in an hour. Most hobbs or "HOUR METERS" can only display single digits in the tenths position. The hour starts at 0 for 6 min's, at the 6th min the Hobbs clik's over to 2 for 6 min's, then cliks to 3 for 6 min's, so on and so on.

 

The problem is if you land or when you shut down the aircraft the hobbs hits the next tenth and cliks over, you have no way of knowing how long its been clicked over on the present tenth being displayed.

 

Hope I am close to what you are asking?

 

Later

[TscottN]

Ok I guess what I am asking is, if the seat hobbs is operated by a squat switch on the landing gear, if from the time I pick up into a hover till the time i set her down is 1 and 1/2 hour, should the hobbs indicate 1 and 1/2 hours?

[RockyMountainPilot]

Ok I guess what I am asking is, if the seat hobbs is operated by a squat switch on the landing gear, if from the time I pick up into a hover till the time i set her down is 1 and 1/2 hour, should the hobbs indicate 1 and 1/2 hours?

 

Yes, or close to it. It could be up to 12 minutes off however because of what mechanic mentioned about it only showing tenths of an hour.

 

Hobbs used for maintenance or billing can be any of those mentioned. In addition, a tachometer can also be used for maintenance or billing. However, if the means to measured the hobbs for maintenance differs from the factory standard, there might be a multiplication factor needed to be used for maintenance.

[Gomer Pylot]

As others have noted, it depends on how it is wired. If it's off a switch connected to the collective, it might show a tenth less than what you actually flew. If it's off oil pressure, it could be a tenth more, or more, because it's running as long as the engine is running. I'm assuming you're complaining about billing, and in that case, it's likely wired to oil pressure, and starts running as soon as the engine is started, and continues to run until it's shut down completely. I've never heard of a 'seat Hobbs', and if it's actually wired to the seat, then perhaps it's running as long as a butt is in the seat.

[HelliBoy]

Some 300Cs have the "billable" hobbs in front of the seat instead of on the panel, I'm assuming this is what he's talking about. This hobbs on Schwiezers is run off a press switch on the m/r trans. Basically when the m/r trans press./temp. light goes out, it starts running. The maintainence hobbs is prolly a squat switch, never seen anything else on a 300.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Some 300Cs have the "billable" hobbs in front of the seat instead of on the panel, I'm assuming this is what he's talking about. This hobbs on Schwiezers is run off a press switch on the m/r trans. Basically when the m/r trans press./temp. light goes out, it starts running. The maintainence hobbs is prolly a squat switch, never seen anything else on a 300.

 

 

That is correct. The Hobbs meter(revenue) he is talking about is proably in front of the seat. Yes it's run by the M/R transmission pressure. The MX hobbs switch is on the landing gear looking at the helicopter from the front it's on the right side(Passenger/CFI side). The actual meter is on the front of the panel viewable from the outside of the helicopter. It starts when you lift off to set down.

 

 

GOMER PYLOT said something interesting."If it's off a switch connected to the collective, it might show a tenth less than what you actually flew. If it's off oil pressure, it could be a tenth more, or more, because it's running as long as the engine is running." Flight time is the same no matter what helicopter you fly. It doesn't matter how the Hobbs meter is wired. According to the FAA you can log time as flight time the time from when the helicopter moves under it's own power for the purpose of take off to the point of which it comes to rest after landing. They (FAA) explained this to be from when you start your pick up to hover taxi or surface taxi for take off until you set the skids down or stop surface taxi after landing. This means you can't log the time you sit in the seat with the blades spining as flight time. Make sense?

 

Now that said, the industry practice current doesn't follow this. Most pilots log revenue time as flight time or time from start to shut down. This is actualy wrong, but it's what is being done right now. I think the FAR's are a bit behind the curve.

 

Some helicopters like the R-44 have only one Hobbs meter and it's run off a collective switch. In this case the time that pilot is logging is time from collective up to down which would follow the FAA legal opinion.

 

Interesting stuff huh? I expect a full debate here on this one. The FAA made it pretty clear though.

 

Here is the FAA legal opinoin:

“U.S. Department of Transportation

Federal Aviation Administration

 

APR 27 2007

(address omitted)

 

Dear Mr. (omitted),

 

This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.

 

Your three questions are:

 

1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243((2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?

 

2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243((2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?

 

3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?

 

The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "

ilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.

 

It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.

 

This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.

 

Sincerely,

 

Rebecca MacPherson

Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”

[Jeff]

I don't see why we keep rehashing this topic about Hobbs meters and billing. The billing Hobbs on a 300 is activated by the m/r pressure switch. You pay the time on the Hobbs! If it's inbetween numbers, round up. That is the standard in the aviation industry (notwithstanding some unscrupulous owners). If you think the elapsed Hobbs time is low, add a tenth to the time you log; if you think it is high, then log a tenth less.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I don't see why we keep rehashing this topic about Hobbs meters and billing. The billing Hobbs on a 300 is activated by the m/r pressure switch. You pay the time on the Hobbs! If it's inbetween numbers, round up. That is the standard in the aviation industry (notwithstanding some unscrupulous owners). If you think the elapsed Hobbs time is low, add a tenth to the time you log; if you think it is high, then log a tenth less.

 

 

Remember, while it's not the industry standard right now, acording to the FAA you can't log Revenue time as flight time. Can't just add or subtract a tenth beacuse you think it's the hobbs time is wrong. If it seems the Hobbs is low, have the meter looked at. I had to have one replaced recently.

 

 

 

JD

[Gomer Pylot]

Our Hobbs meters are wired to a collective switch. It's not at all unusual for pilots to log a tenth or so more flight time than the Hobbs shows. If the collective goes to the bottom in flight, the Hobbs stops until it's raised, and it's very possible to round minutes one way or another. The pilot logs flight time from his watch or other clock (I use the GPS time display) and the Hobbs is only used for maintenance tracking. The only reason I even bother to note the times is for the med crew, who want to know the time we arrived and departed the scene or hospital, and for possible future lawsuit verification. I long ago quit bothering to keep track of all my flight time, I just make sure I can prove currency.