Dual Controls

[betr_thn_Icarus]

So, this has been troubling me. I'm posting this in the flight training section because I still feel I am training and have a lot to learn. I am still a confident private pilot though.

 

In the past I had been told that a helicopter rated pilot flying someone without at least a private helicopter license had to remove the dual controls. This is unless they were a CFI or better. I have since been told this isn't true. I can not find anything in the FAR/AIM that tells me either way so I am to assume I can leave them in. Does anyone have input on this? If I was flying random people I would just take them out but since I am flying people I know and trust I would prefer to leave them in.

 

I started out in robinsons a long time ago so maybe this is a robinson rule that just stuck with me. Maybe it was also just a personal rule from one of my many instructors.

 

If anyone can find it or knows it can you cite it in the FAR please?

 

Thanks for any and all help guys and gals.

[Gomer Pylot]

I've never heard of any requirement to remove the controls, you just can't permit the pax to manipulate them. Almost every airplane has dual controls installed, and it's a major chore to remove them, if it's even possible. In the US, anything not specifically prohibited is allowed, and I see nothing in the FARs that prohibits flying passengers with dual controls installed.

[Kropte]

After looking around a bit the only thing I could find was a caution note in the Robinson PoH that said

"For helicopters with removable controls, remove left seat controls if person in that seat is not a rated helicopter pilot".

It's in the Normal Procedures section on page 4-5

[delorean]

Nothing in the FARs......It's a Pathfinder Insurance thing. They say you can't have the "removeable" controls installed unless the person in the seat has at least a Private certificate with a helicopter rating. If you're (old) R22 doesn't have the removeable collective or pedals, obviousely you don't have "removeable" controls and don't need to remove the non-removeable controls.

 

Most operators will have something written into their rental agreement, operations manual, etc. to spell out the rules for front seat passengers. In the interest of safety and to discourage non-CFI from letting their passenger "ride along" on the controls, most will say the controls have to be removed if they are easily removeable.

 

Moreover, it's dangerous putting a passenger next to a set of controls in a helicopter--especially if it's their first flight or they're a nervous flyer. When people get scared and uneasy, they grab onto things and WON'T let go! A cyclic in front of them and collective next to them are the ONLY things to grab onto in a helicopter. God forbid they twist the throttle off on you. Tense their legs up, and they're pushing on both pedals. Maybe they'll lay their bag or camera underneath the collective....oops. It's just a bad idea all around. Always take the controls out (that goes for solo flights too.)

 

There are two R44 mishaps on YouTube where the pilots blamed the passenger bumping the controls for it. One was truely the passenger's fault (pilot got control and put it back on the ground safely), the other was just trying to pass the blame.

[RockyMountainPilot]

There are two R44 accidents on YouTube where the pilots blamed the passenger bumping the controls for the mishap. One was truely the passenger's fault (pilot got control and put it back on the ground safely), the other was just trying to pass the blame.

 

Are you talking about the one where the R44 tips way forward and almost has a blade strike in front of the helicopter on the ground? And the other one is where he hits the hangar door? The hangar door one is obviously the PIC's fault. No one else to blame there.

[betr_thn_Icarus]

OK I didn't think there were...thanks

 

I bet it was the insurance and I just didn't realize it back then.

[choppedair]

OK I didn't think there were...thanks

 

I bet it was the insurance and I just didn't realize it back then.

 

Also consider that a person must have awareness training before manipulating the controls of a robinson helicopter. This is why you probably remember being told this while flying the R22. Most schools make it a rule, as they should. A private pilot doesn't have the skill and experience to let some random d-bag push the controls around.

[helonorth]

The reason you can't find anything in the FARs about dual controls is because it's not addressed.

Most flight schools require that a renter remove them if flying with passengers. Why would you

want to leave them in even if you "trust" the person? It only takes about a minute to take them out.

[FlyNHighNFast]

Why would you want to leave them in even if you "trust" the person?

 

Exactly! I can see no reason to leave them in, unless your passenger was a rated pilot or had at least soloed a helicopter. It's not like fixed wing, where if you became incapacitated, someone may be able to talk them down.

[joker]

but since I am flying people I know and trust I would prefer to leave them in.

 

91.13????

 

Goto agree with what's been said. Why leave them in? Panic can manifest in the most unlikely people. Even those you once thought were 'un-panicable'.

 

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C of G is going to love this one?

 

So we all take the doors off our aircraft when its hot, or remove the controls when carrying non-rated pax, right?. Here's one for discussion.

 

From a legal standpoint, how or where is a pilot (PPL, CPL or whatever) authorised to remove the dual controls / doors from the aircraft? What records or documentation (if any) is required when doors or dual controls are removed?

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Lastly, here's an extract from a NZ publication on the very subject. For full text, follow the link below:

Vector - CAA article - PAX or PACKS

 

Joker

 

Pax and Packs

When passengers are being carried in

the second-pilot seat with dual controls

installed, a careful briefing is essential.

Passengers have been known to use

the pedals as footrests – life suddenly

becomes interesting when they turn

around to their friends in the back,

using the pedals for leverage. Loose

items such as carry-on bags and cameras

occasionally migrate to that seemingly

magnetic space between the pedals. On

short final, as you need to feed in that

bootful of pedal, oops!

One passenger, boarding a helicopter at

the hover, found a very useful handhold

on that stick conveniently located in

front of his seat. Fortunately, both he

and the pilot survived the ensuing

rollover. A farmer, leaving an agricultural

helicopter after a briefing flight, tripped

on the collective lever, also resulting in a

rollover. In any rollover situation when

the rotors are turning, the helicopter will

generally be an insurance 'constructive

total loss', that is, the cost of repairs will

exceed the insured value.

Passengers have an uncanny ability

to find new and exciting ways of

interacting with the controls; again,

we stress the importance of a thorough

briefing. On a photographic sortie, a

photographer managed to inadvertently

loop his camera strap around the rotor

brake lever and pull it out of its detent.

Detected in time, it didn't cause a

problem. On another photo flight, a Jet

Ranger pilot noticed a sudden restriction

in rearward cyclic movement, and found

that a camera had wedged under the

dual cyclic 'stub'. Normally hidden by

a soft leather sleeve, the stub was not

readily apparent to the photographer.

Not long after this event, the operator

fitted a rigid cover to prevent future

similar occurrences.

Edited July 23, 2007 by joker

[stik_actu8r]

There is some verbage in an agreement from Robinson Helicopters stating that pilots ferrying helicopters from the factory must remove the controls if the passenger is not a rated pilot. The document is here: RHC specifically item #7.

 

I started out in robinsons a long time ago so maybe this is a robinson rule that just stuck with me. Maybe it was also just a personal rule from one of my many instructors.

 

Perhaps this is what you remember?

[SToL]

you just can't permit the pax to manipulate them.

 

That is a Part 135 rule but doesn't apply to flying Part 91.

 

= = = = = = =

 

Sec. 135.115

 

Manipulation of controls.

 

No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during flight conducted under this part, nor may any person manipulate the controls during such flight unless that person is--

(a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft; or

( An authorized safety representative of the Administrator who has the permission of the pilot in command, is qualified in the aircraft, and is checking flight operations.

[stik_actu8r]

Robinson Helicopter Corp. has a contract for pilots ferrying helicopters from the factory that stipulates that if the passenger is not rated, then the LH controlls must be removed and stowed Requirements for Pilots Ferrying Helicopters from RHC Factory specifically item #7. Perhaps this is what you remember?

 

Sorry for the double post. Thought the first one did not go through.

Edited July 26, 2007 by stik_actu8r