W/B question

[klmmarine]

I have been wondering about this for a while. I have almost 100 hours now flying the R-22. During private I went through four schools and 5 instructors. It wasn't until I got to Classic Helicopters, where I am now, that my instructors paid much attention to the W/B issues. They would just put enough fuel in to fly for a while, and never paid any attention to whether we were over max gross weight, or out of the CG limits. I just didn't know any better at the time and figured that my instructors must have known what they were doing and it wasn't a big deal. Now that I have been doing it for a little while, I have realized just how big a mistake that could have been. Not just by over-stressing the aircraft, but also opening up the CFI and the school to civil liability due to negligence.

 

I was just wondering whether the other members of the forum and other pilots really think that it is a big deal. Hope this starts a good conversation. Anyone else who has ideas please feel free to chime in here.

[Copterpilot213]

I always do a weight and balance and never go above max gross weight. I trust that the manufacturers put those limits there for a reason. With how many things can go wrong, why mess with something you actually have control over?

[palmfish]

I think your survey is a little flawed. You should add an answer that reads something to the effect of, "When there is a change in aircraft/mission configuration that I haven't already planned for."

[joker]

Ha!

 

Good question. I posted these sentiments back in 2004!

 

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...ost&p=28962

 

I don't think the training world has changed much since then!

 

INSTRUCTORS, from a 'role modelling' point of view, be anal with this kind of topic. Ensure that students [see you doing WB calculations / understand why you did not do one for a particular flight.]

 

Joker

 

Regarding the poll:

 

Always and Never for me.

 

I agree, sometimes it is not necessary to 'get a calculator' out each time. If you are totally familiar with the flight profile and configuration, then you are able to fly without actually working through a calculation.

 

However, you are required to have accurate WB figures on board for each flight. In the event of an accident, you might be questioned. Where I work now, we have accurate manifest and load sheet for every flight, which must be signed, a copy kept on ground and one in the air! Over done - I think!

 

Joker

Edited August 20, 2007 by joker

[Goldy]

I keep two WB sheets in my knee board..one for the R22, the other for the R44. Both have listed the max weight and fuel I can fly with for each aircraft. As long as my load of passengers and fuel is at this number or below...I'm good to go. I have also done calcs based on minimum fuel to insure I am not out of the charts with a low fuel load.

 

So the only issue that could come up is taking on a very large load ( or passenger) that might throw you off of lateral WB...and for that you do a separate calculation.

 

So while I keep a WB on board, you dont have to do one for each flight. What, is the guy you flew with yesterday 20 pounds heavier today? For repetitive flight..like training, you might make one up for each of the CFI's you fly with.....just my 2 cents.

 

Goldy

Edited August 20, 2007 by Goldy

[Witch]

I think I'm with Goldy on this one. I've done a W&B for the machine I fly with and without my IP. I know I can put in a max of 20 gallons and that sets just inside the envelope.

 

I also have a couple for others where the max fuel is 15 and 13 gallons. That and I fudge my weight by 10 pounds. That gives me a little more breathing room don'tcha know.

 

Later

[kodoz]

For repetitive flight..like training, you might make one up for each of the CFI's you fly with.....just my 2 cents.

 

This is what i've been doing since about 15 hrs in. At this point, I know that with me + any instructor in any of the R22s we have, I'm not going out of CG limits if fuel doesn't put us over max gross weight. Since i'm a geek and I've done this dozens of times now, i just made up the W&B tables and graphs in an Excel spreadsheet. Also calculate the HIGE and HOGE for every flight.

[Wally]

Old habit from YEARS in twin (shudder)... I answered "before every flight" and "Never", but there's not a perfect answer there. Truth is, I set up spreadsheet in my PDA when I report for duty, so I KNOW how much patient weight I can take before some biscuit eater puts me out the front of the W&B envelope. I'll update the numers as required, but f the patient's reported as weighing less, I don't sweat it. I do, however, on occasion suspect that some of my scene patients might be heavier than the estimate.

If you don't want to buy a PDA for this, a calculator with two memories allows a running total of weight and moment. Many helos have very few stations to remember. The one I have trouble with is that day's assigned bird's Form C weight and total moment..

[zemogman]

I think your survey is a little flawed. You should add an answer that reads something to the effect of, "When there is a change in aircraft/mission configuration that I haven't already planned for."

 

I agree...I'm training with the same instructors...and have worked it out for both of them with full tanks...if it's the same craft and passengers/load you are good to go...They have a spreadsheet at the school to calculate quickly before a flight if any of these variables change...I believe that is smart and safe.

[klmmarine]

I am happy to see these responses. I had 41 hours before I realized the importance of doing a W/B my instructors were falling down on the job.

 

I know that there are many questions that I could have added to the poll, but I just wanted to get a quick idea about what everyone else was doing, mostly in the training environment. However the guys input from elsewhere in the industry is great and will help me and others still in training see that there are applications after we get out there.

 

Keep'em coming folks...

[Gomer Pylot]

When I flew the S76, it was before every flight, because you can get out of CG limits while still well within weight limits. In single-engine ships, it's not especially critical. It's hard to get a 206 outside CG limits, if it's loaded with any common sense, and the ones I fly are almost impossible to get out, because the configuration is always the same. So weight limits are all I care about, and that's pretty easily taken care of. We have a spreadsheet on the PC, and I have Copilot on my Palm, and the spreadsheet has the weights of every possible crew member, so it's quick to select their names, have the weights automagically filled in, and a max patient weight appears. Every helicopter model has its quirks and regulatory requirements. For twins, Part 135 requires a wt/bal be done before every flight. For singles, a loading schedule can be used. It's impossible to make one poll cover all possible situations.

 

Wally, what app are you using on your PDA? What OS is it?

Edited August 20, 2007 by Gomer Pylot

[rick1128]

When I was preparing for my CFI (H), I prepared several W&B forms. One set for each helicopter at the school. First ones were me solo with 20 gallons and full fuel. Next set was myself and a 240 pound student with 20 gallons of fuel and full fuel. I followed this up with a set for a 100 pound student solo with the previous fuel loads and another set for a 240 pound student solo. The last set was with myself and a 100 pound student with the computed fuel loads. But it gave me an idea where I was in the envelope. Since I was flying a 300 it was mostly just an exercise. Be aware that the regs do not require you to do a W&B prior to each flight, just that you ensure that you operate within W&B limits.

[Dustin Finan]

I have been wondering about this for a while. I have almost 100 hours now flying the R-22. During private I went through four schools and 5 instructors. It wasn't until I got to Classic Helicopters, where I am now, that my instructors paid much attention to the W/B issues. They would just put enough fuel in to fly for a while, and never paid any attention to whether we were over max gross weight, or out of the CG limits. I just didn't know any better at the time and figured that my instructors must have known what they were doing and it wasn't a big deal. Now that I have been doing it for a little while, I have realized just how big a mistake that could have been. Not just by over-stressing the aircraft, but also opening up the CFI and the school to civil liability due to negligence.

 

I was just wondering whether the other members of the forum and other pilots really think that it is a big deal. Hope this starts a good conversation. Anyone else who has ideas please feel free to chime in here.

 

I have a W/B cheat sheet if you want it. You can also find it on Vertical reference. If your instructor is light weight. 160 ish. He can fly an R22 with almost any weight 240 just worry about the max G/W. Only so much fuel.

 

How life? You hear about Trevor?

[Mikemv]

To All, let me bring up a few points for consideration. First, let me state that I have been involved in purchasing helicopters in a GREEN state(no paint, avionics, or interior completion) and then have completed them. Also, I have been involved in overhauling helos that were damaged and returned to airworthy conditions. And, also, modifying aircraft with additon or removal of equipment. So, knowing that, I will ask you, "Have you ever verified that the empty weight CG is within the limits published in the Maintenance Manual? For you CFI's teaching primary students, they could possibly ask you how you know it is OK from the get go? If you fly only one aircraft, do you know the empty weight? I have come across pilots operating 206's and 407's who did not! I could not imagine how they safely operated every flight as I know they did not do a W&B. Do you know what conditions of fuel and loading produce the most forward and most aft CG's? Are there specific scenarios that WILL get you out of CG or over Gross? Does your CG change with fuel burn? I do understand that in an R22 in a training environment that some of these conditions do not apply but you and your students will be progressing to larger equipment someday. The R44 can get out of foward CG very easily thru passenger loading! I hope that I have a few of you thinking about W&B now. And to answer the Poll, I have verified that the EW CG is within limits, that I am not over GW and that my payload is distributed to be in the allowable CG range for every flight. I have also thought about DA and helo performance for the existing conditions. Fly safe, Mike

[AngelFire_91]

... So, knowing that, I will ask you, "Have you ever verified that the empty weight CG is within the limits published in the Maintenance Manual? For you CFI's teaching primary students, they could possibly ask you how you know it is OK from the get go? ...

 

I may be way off base here, and correct me If I'm wrong, But if I know I'm within CG limits at the begining of my flight, throughout my flight, and end of flight. No matter what operation I'm performing. Why would I need to know the W/B condition for a state I'll never be in, unless I plan on running out of gas, and then I'm stupid anyway and being out of limits is the least of my worries. Not to mention, how could an A&P or IA legally sign off a Helicopter that is technically not airworthy?

[Mikemv]

AF91, you make a good point! However, we(that means me also) have probably completed a WB comp and it not come out correct because of some math we did. So too have A&P's/AI's after mods or even during initial comps from the factory. What about addition of equipment and removal of ballast or the opposite? And, after the previous addition or remval, where in the envelope is the CG located? FWD? AFT? Mid? My point in mentioning this was to make pilots aware of an Empty Weight CG Envelope or for the French equipment an EW CG line/area. It is possible to be out of the EW CG but due to your particular loading be in the allowable CG. Then a different loading be out in both cases! Food for thought, more knowledge for all, Mike

[helonorth]

As you get more experience you will find it's mostly a weight calculation rather than a weight AND

balance calculation. What I fly, if I have 5 people or less, it's almost impossible to get over gross.

A lot of pilots, if hot loading passengers, will try it and if the thing is pulling 100% torque in a hover

on a hot day with no wind, somebody gets off. You could even be under or at gross weight. Know

how to load the aircraft. Even if you're under gross weight and it struggles to get off

the ground, be real careful or lose some of the weight.

Edited December 8, 2007 by helonorth

[joker]

Why would I need to know the W/B condition... unless I plan on running out of gas, ...and being out of limits is the least of my worries.

Hmmm...Surely when you run out of fuel is exactly the time you really want to be inside limits. i.e. CG too far forward, no flare!Joker

[AngelFire_91]

AF91, you make a good point! However, we(that means me also) have probably completed a WB comp and it not come out correct because of some math we did. So too have A&P's/AI's after mods or even during initial comps from the factory ... My point in mentioning this was to make pilots aware of an Empty Weight CG Envelope or for the French equipment an EW CG line/area ... Food for thought, more knowledge for all, Mike

No, I realize that a simple math error can be made. Trust me, I do it all the time. I was a little pissed about an off forum problem I've been having and it got a little frisky here on the board. I didn't mean to attack if it sounds like I did. I mainly was saying that I understand there is an EW CG, and I understand that if it were to be off, be it math error or other, it could cause problems, not to mention airwortiness. But if I figured the W/B before the flight, for Begining of mission, and Zero fuel, and it fell within the limits then does it really matter (airworthiness aside), it seems it shouldn't unless I'm out of fuel, and kick a passenger or two off while autorotating.

 

Hmmm...Surely when you run out of fuel is exactly the time you really want to be inside limits. i.e. CG too far forward, no flare!Joker

Sorry Joker, please read the pissed at something else comment above. It's probably not a valid excues but it's all I got. Also, I understand that being out of CG isn't a happy situation, that's why Zero Fuel weight is important, specially when your out of fuel. What I meant was that if I was being stupid then simply walking down the street was a concern, and I shouldn't be even worried with flying since I'll probably kill myself.

 

Sorry for the pissed comment everyone, I didn't mean to attack anyone, I'll try to not respond next time right after dealing with a crappy situation around the home here.

[Mikemv]

AF91, I did not feel attacked. I thought that you made a sincere reply. I get to fly and talk with many younger and less experienced pilots. I have found many short comings in pilot training at all levels. With the training push that we are going thru now, I made the mention of EW CG envelope because it is an area that no one trains for/about. Pilots move to larger equipment with different loading scenarios possible. Look at this one for instance! Flying a 206 you just make minimum pilot weight, you do not know where in the empty weight CG envelope your aircraft falls. Your body builder customer that weighs a very muscular 300+ lbs shows up and elects to ride in the rear on the way to the show. He was a little anxious as it was his first time travelling by helo. On the way home, he is comfortable and says that he would like to ride in front to see everything better. Now, you pick up the aircraft and during your hover to a departure point you must hover downwind. Did I mention that it is blowing 22mph gusting to 28mph now? Now, think about controlability with an EW CG most Forward, most Aft or someplace in the envelope. See now how knowing where EW CG may play a factor? (you may be well within the allowable CG range) Another day the pilot is 270#'s(not minimum), what will he experience in the previous scenarios? EW CG did not change! Now change to a Long Ranger with more seats? Also, I have many A&P's that have me figure weight and balance changes for them. As pilots, we do them for every flight(mentally or on paper depending). How often do you think that mechanics do W&B? Just for fun, ask every mechanic that you see when was the last time he did one? Do not get bogged down in all of the EW CG stuff, but as a pro with 40+yrs in helos it has become who I am. Everyone share the info, learn all you can, apply all you know and be SAFE! Mike

[Gomer Pylot]

The need for a w/b calculation depend a great deal on the model. It's almost impossible to get a 206 out of CG limits, so doing the balance part is usually a waste of time, and nobody does it regularly. You should be able to figure the allowable payload for a given fuel load in your head after you've flown a particuar aircraft for awhile. An S76A++, OTOH, can easily be out of CG limits, though, and you do need to do a calcuation for every flight. Most operators have gone to EFBs, which make it rather quick and easy to do. You just have to know where to put the fat boys for your aircraft and fuel load, because most calculations are done using average weights for each seat - divide the total pax weight by the number of pax, and put that weight in each marked seat. If you have a few skinny guys ( relatively speaking) and a few hulks, you may have to do an actual calculation or else know where the limit is, aft or forward, and load the critters appropriately. In my current 206, there is no way to get out of CG, and the patient always goes in the same place, so I just worry about max gross weight, and whether it will hover OGE.

[Mikemv]

Wow, I finally voted in the poll and saw the results! I hope that all of the replys were not sincere and truthful. Did the pilots that voted for "flying over max gross weight only when the mission required it" make a limitations exceedance entry in the aircraft log book and notify maintenance? I hope they did. Who flew the aircraft after you did this? I think that people respond to the polls trying to be funny or cute. Please fly professionally even if you make jokes in the polls. Remember that a lot of students and inexperienced pilots read these posts. Fly Safely, Mike