Jump to content

Minimum hours needed to Instruct R22, R44, 300


Recommended Posts

Does anybody here know what the minimum hours needed to Instruct on the R44, R22, and 300cb are with regard to insurability? I'd like to move through my training and be employable on all three ships, but I've heard a couple of different answers on this so I figured I'd ask the group.

 

Thanks guys....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anybody here know what the minimum hours needed to Instruct on the R44, R22, and 300cb are with regard to insurability? I'd like to move through my training and be employable on all three ships, but I've heard a couple of different answers on this so I figured I'd ask the group.

 

Thanks guys....

From everything Ive read and heard 250-300 for r-22/44, the 300cb around 300 is good for a CFII just about everywhere. Also I think it depends on your personality, abilities, and attitude as much or more than the hours. I have a friend that got a job in Maui flying tours w/only 275hrs fresh out of school, why? because he has a great attitude and learned very quickly, he was as good as a 1000hr guy.

Edited by OhhAndy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From everything Ive read and heard 250-300 for r-22/44, the 300cb around 300 is good for a CFII just about everywhere. Also I think it depends on your personality, abilities, and attitude as much or more than the hours. I have a friend that got a job in Maui flying tours w/only 275hrs fresh out of school, why? because he has a great attitude and learned very quickly, he was as good as a 1000hr guy.

 

 

Thanks Andy,

 

I've heard it was 200 - 300 total time, but I was really trying to find out how much time you need in each particular ship. You could do most of your training on say the 22, but then maybe get 30 hours in a 300cb and be able to instruct on that ship? I know the insurance companies are more stringent with the Robbies with regards to how many hours you need to actually be in those ships specifically before you can instruct. I want to make sure I have enough hours in all three to instruct in all three. I've heard the r44 is 20-40 hours. Sorry, I should have specified more clearly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Andy,

 

I've heard it was 200 - 300 total time, but I was really trying to find out how much time you need in each particular ship. You could do most of your training on say the 22, but then maybe get 30 hours in a 300cb and be able to instruct on that ship? I know the insurance companies are more stringent with the Robbies with regards to how many hours you need to actually be in those ships specifically before you can instruct. I want to make sure I have enough hours in all three to instruct in all three. I've heard the r44 is 20-40 hours. Sorry, I should have specified more clearly.

 

 

Ok, assuming you have read this... Start with FAR Part 61, maybe subpart H ( aka page 110 in the ASA). Also SFAR 73 ( aka page 36 of 2006 ASA) hint..look at section 5..

 

Yes, insurance requirements are above and beyond the FAA's. Most Robinson R22 requirements are 300 hours minimum. Thats Pathfinders rules, and for the R22..thats the cheapest insurance around. For the 300, I have heard 200 hours is do-able. For the R44..well, my experience is that its not that easy. Not sure why, its so much easier and more forgiving than the R22, but in many cases, the hour requirements are much higher...in some cases 500 hours or more. Cant explain that one.....Good luck, Goldy

Edited by Goldy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, assuming you have read this... Start with FAR Part 61, maybe subpart H ( aka page 110 in the ASA). Also SFAR 73 ( aka page 36 of 2006 ASA) hint..look at section 5..

 

Yes, insurance requirements are above and beyond the FAA's. Most Robinson R22 requirements are 300 hours minimum. Thats Pathfinders rules, and for the R22..thats the cheapest insurance around. For the 300, I have heard 200 hours is do-able. For the R44..well, my experience is that its not that easy. Not sure why, its so much easier and more forgiving than the R22, but in many cases, the hour requirements are much higher...in some cases 500 hours or more. Cant explain that one.....Good luck, Goldy

 

 

Hey there Goldy,

 

How are you man? So it sounds like the best thing for me to do is actually get as much time in one ship through training as I can, therefore at least I'm hirable for something, whereas if I split time in all three I would not be hirable in anything for a while?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey there Goldy,

 

How are you man? So it sounds like the best thing for me to do is actually get as much time in one ship through training as I can, therefore at least I'm hirable for something, whereas if I split time in all three I would not be hirable in anything for a while?

 

 

I hate to sound like a Robinson preacher, but here ya go. Every hour you spend in an 269/300 means nothing towards required flight time in an R22/R44.

 

Every hour you spend in an R44 means nothing towards required hours in an R22.

 

BUT, every hour you spend in an R22 counts towards total helicopter time, R22 time AND a portion (25 of the requird 50) of it counts against required R44 times....hmm..can I get an amen ?

 

So honestly, in my not so humble opinion, your first 75 hours or so should be flown in the R22..then you can move onto other ships (the 300 is a piece of cake to fly compared to R22)..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Goldy,

 

How you do sound like a 'Robbie-preacher'!!!

 

Anyway, I can't really understand your numbers. I admit I know nothing about 'Pathfinder'.

 

Maybe you can help me underrstand them there.

 

Your post seems to suggest that to get Pathfinder insurance, the R22 pilot must have 300 hrs on type?

 

Every hour you spend in an 269/300 means nothing towards required flight time in an R22/R44.

 

That suggests, if he had say, only 270 on R22s and 100 on 300CB, he could still not get Pathfinder, and thus be unemployable on RHC aircraft?

 

Last time I looked, the requirements from the SFAR were only 200 hrs in helicopters and 50 on type.

 

Now, I always (I could be wrong) thought Pathfinder wanted 300hrs in helicopters. I didn't know they asked for that to be on type.

 

Take this case for example: Start training on the 300CB. Accumulate about 250hrs. Take R22 transition and gain a further 50hrs. That makes 300 total, 50 on R22. Can this pilot get Pathfinder Insurance???

 

Joker

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anybody here know what the minimum hours needed to Instruct on the R44, R22, and 300cb are with regard to insurability? I'd like to move through my training and be employable on all three ships, but I've heard a couple of different answers on this so I figured I'd ask the group.

 

Thanks guys....

 

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this subject, so allow me to clear this up a bit. I own a flight school and have been through the insurance issues for all three types...

 

The Schweizer 300 does not have a specific number of required hours. I've gotten guys with less than 200 hours total helicopter time and about half that in the Schweizer 300 covered, however this requires a clean training record. (the insurance company DOES check your FAA pilot records) I can also tell you that I can get guys with less time covered if I trained them. CFIs I hire outside the company often need more time to make insurance happy. The lowest number of hours I've gotten covered that I did not train was 170 total time.

 

The Robinson R-22 requires at least 200 hours per the SFAR 73 requirements, and there are insurance companies out there that will go along with that, however few flight schools use them due to cost. Pathfinder is the most used insurance company because it is the least expensive. Pathfinder requires 300 hours total helicopter time, 50 hours in the R-22.

 

The Robinson R-44 also requires 200 hours per the SFAR 73 requirements, however insurance almost always will require more. Pathfinder requires 500 hours total helicopter time, 50 hours in the R-44. I've gotten insurance quotes that would allow someone with 250 hours total helicopter time, 25 hours in the R-44 to teach, however the cost of that insurance was triple the cost of Pathfinder. Thus, we use Pathfinder due to the price.

 

So the answer to your question is, "it depends"... Different schools use different insurance companies, each has their own rules about what is required. A key point to keep in mind is that aviation insurance is a small industry. There are a grand total of 5 insurance companies that will write helicopter training insurance... AIG, Aerospace, US Specialty, W. Brown, and Pathfinder. The first three will cover all three types, W. Brown is Schweizer only and Pathfinder is Robinson only.

 

Not much to pick from.

 

The way we get around the Pathfinder insurance issue is to put newly hired CFIs in the Schweizer for a few months, once they build up 300 hours of helicopter time, they can start teaching in the R-22. After 500 hours, if they have the 50 hours of R-44 time, they can teach in that too.

 

Hopefully this answers your question and clears it up a bit...

 

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone else hear that the S-far for the Robbie was supposed to be drastically adjusted soon so as to not be as restrictive as it is now? One of the instructors I fly with told me that Frank has said as much and that it is supposed to happen pretty soon.

Wonder if that will possibly change ins. carrier policies/requirements?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Jehh!

confused into thinking he had to go R22 in order to have any future! Goldy!...grrrr ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Joker

 

Its the devils at work.

 

Yeah, its what Jason said ( so much better than what i stated) ! However I will add that some schools have dropped coverage due to expense on the R44.....and now limit coverage to owners or CFI's only...no PPL's. Getting harder to fly the nicest ship out there !

 

As for SFAR changes..its set to expire next year so they are soliciting comments. Last go round, when Frank asked to comment they told him it was too late, so they left SFAR as it was. This time, there is a major push to get the R44 off the list.

 

Goldy

Edited by Goldy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pathfinder is actually pretty reasonable on the R-44, the challenge is that they do not allow rental of the R-44. This was one of the issues we had when picking between insurance companies.

 

One challenge, while W. Brown and Pathfinder will allow you to insure just part of your fleet, the other three will not. AIG, Aerospace, and US Speciality require the whole fleet, or nothing at all. So we cannot insure the R-44 with AIG, then the R-22 with Pathfinder.

 

Pathfinder is about $16K for training and commercial insurance on a $400K hull value. US Speciality was $42K. Thus, Pathfinder... Granted, US Speciality would allow us to rent the R-44 out, and it would allow someone with 250 hours total helicopter time and 25 in the R-44 to teach in it. However, we'd have to do a LOT of flying to make up that insurance price difference.

 

BTW, Pathfinder is not equal to the other companies in terms of what they cover, and how well they cover you. That is how they give a cheaper price, by providing less coverage. With any other insurance company, they would pay to recover the helicopter, ship it to wherever it needs to get fixed, etc. Pathfinder requires that you pay all those expenses out of your own pocket, including returning the helicopter to the factory.

 

Sigh... All I can say is that I'm glad I have a great insurance agent...

 

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One challenge, while W. Brown and Pathfinder will allow you to insure just part of your fleet, the other three will not. AIG, Aerospace, and US Speciality require the whole fleet, or nothing at all. So we cannot insure the R-44 with AIG, then the R-22 with Pathfinder.

 

When did this happen? We used to keep one R22 on AIG (through Sutton James) for the lower timers to rent, the second R22 and R44 on Pathfinder for just training and charter, and the 300 through some other factory sponsored insurance.

 

How do they know you have other helicopters in your "fleet"? What constitutes a "fleet"? If they do it by business name only, just incorporate another company and register it to that. How are they going to stop you? That's complete BS.

 

BTW, if you ever do have an accident with Pathfinder, as you mentioned, you need to pay all the expenses to recover and transport the wreckage back to the factory. Once its there, they evaluate how much it will cost to fix it and then discount each life limited-limited with how much time was left was left on the broken one. If you choose not to get it fixed, you just get the amount to fix the helicopter, and you do not get back any of the servicable parts. You lose all the value of each servicable part. It's kind of like a half-burned down house.....you are going to get screwed big time.

 

Also, if any of your passengers choose to sue RHC, your settlement from Pathfinder is used to defend RHC. Ever see that in the paperwork.....it's there!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I am seeing two different things about the R44 here.

 

Does 25 hours in the R22 and 25 hours in the R44 with 500TT qualify you to teach in the R44? OR Does ALL 50 hours have to be in the 44?

 

I only ask because I am at the point where I can be flying the 44 in my training, BUT I can't afford to spend 50 hours in it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When did this happen? We used to keep one R22 on AIG (through Sutton James) for the lower timers to rent, the second R22 and R44 on Pathfinder for just training and charter, and the 300 through some other factory sponsored insurance.

 

This is a recent thing... They won't do it anymore... They want the whole fleet, or nothing.

 

How do they know you have other helicopters in your "fleet"? What constitutes a "fleet"? If they do it by business name only, just incorporate another company and register it to that. How are they going to stop you? That's complete BS.

 

Yes, it is... However they also can refuse to insure the risk, so they can do what they like. A fleet is a group of aircraft at the same address used for the same purpose.

 

While I could try the seperate business name routine, if caught doing it, coverage would be denied, thus making the entire exercise pointless. I would likely not be caught unless I had a claim, and it would really stink to find out then that I had no coverage because I commited insurance fraud. (yes, you have to sign something along those lines)

 

BTW, if you ever do have an accident with Pathfinder, as you mentioned, you need to pay all the expenses to recover and transport the wreckage back to the factory. Once its there, they evaluate how much it will cost to fix it and then discount each life limited-limited with how much time was left was left on the broken one. If you choose not to get it fixed, you just get the amount to fix the helicopter, and you do not get back any of the servicable parts. You lose all the value of each servicable part. It's kind of like a half-burned down house.....you are going to get screwed big time.

 

I'm well aware of all that... On the other hand, the price difference between Pathfinder and the others is enough to pay for all that.

 

Also, if any of your passengers choose to sue RHC, your settlement from Pathfinder is used to defend RHC. Ever see that in the paperwork.....it's there!

 

Almost... RHC is allowed to request a seperate defense, and the available liability limits are split 50/50 between RHC and the owner/operater. So I'm really buying $500,000 of liability protection, rather than $1,000,000.

 

Being poor is my only real defense. :)

 

Even so, AIG or any of the others will only sell you $1,000,000 of insurance, and that really isn't enough these days either, however you cannot buy more coverage for flight training at any price. It simply isn't for sale, so really the difference between Pathfinder and AIG isn't all that bad...

 

Ahh, the joys of being in aviation... I know there is money in aviation... I put it there! :)

 

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I am seeing two different things about the R44 here.

 

Does 25 hours in the R22 and 25 hours in the R44 with 500TT qualify you to teach in the R44? OR Does ALL 50 hours have to be in the 44?

 

I only ask because I am at the point where I can be flying the 44 in my training, BUT I can't afford to spend 50 hours in it.

 

Pathfinder requires that 50 hours be in the R-44. It is the SFAR 73 that allows you to teach with 25 hours in the R-44 if you have 25 hours in the R-22.

 

Not everyone uses Pathfinder of course, but plenty do. Not all is lost, we provide 37.5 hours of R-44 time to our students, and that is ok because Pathfinder allows pilots to fly tours and photo flights in the R-44 to build up their time to the 50 hour mark...

 

So don't lose too much sleep over it... I'd hire someone with 25 hours in the R-44, it just might take a few months to build up enough time to teach in it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So don't lose too much sleep over it... I'd hire someone with 25 hours in the R-44, it just might take a few months to build up enough time to teach in it.

 

 

Good to know, thanks for the info. Of the two schools that I may work for in Nashville, both have R-44 instrument ships. Now all I need to do is get through the rest of my training.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pathfinder is the biggest rip-off insurance in aviation. 1/2 of YOUR policy covers Robinson helicopter liability. HUMMM. Can you say insider. You really get what you pay for.

Take a look at http://www.insureaviation.com/index.php

I just changed from Pathfinder to insureaviation for an R22 and an R44.

I was paying over 30,000 a year for Pathfinder. I am now getting REAL insurance for less than 30,000. Hull coverage for the R44 at $400,000 and R22 @ @200,000. No prorated, recovery time components crap. Just real aviaion insurance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pathfinder is the biggest rip-off insurance in aviation. 1/2 of YOUR policy covers Robinson helicopter liability. HUMMM. Can you say insider. You really get what you pay for.

 

Yes, usually you do... However traditional insurance is 2 to 3 times the price of Pathfinder, so it is what it is...

 

BTW, there is nothing wrong with 1/2 of the policy covering Robinson... If anyone else would sell me $500,000 of liability at Pathfinder prices, I'd take them up on it in a New York minute... :)

 

Take a look at http://www.insureaviation.com/index.php

I just changed from Pathfinder to insureaviation for an R22 and an R44.

I was paying over 30,000 a year for Pathfinder. I am now getting REAL insurance for less than 30,000. Hull coverage for the R44 at $400,000 and R22 @ @200,000. No prorated, recovery time components crap. Just real aviaion insurance.

 

That is a Risk Purchasing Group, not an insurance company... However, that doesn't mean it isn't good, it just is different than going through the big four...

 

You say that you have coverage for a similar price to Pathfinder... What use and limits do you have? If it is for training and rental, and provides $1,000,000/$100,000 liability limits, then it might be worth considering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just pulled out the policy:

100,00/1,000,000

$10,299.52

 

Hull:

$400,000 R44

$200,000 R22

deductible of 10,000 or 5% of the loss which ever is greater

$16,531.70

 

I can email the sample policy I got if anyone wants to take a look at it.

Sky2@email.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anybody here know what the minimum hours needed to Instruct on the R44, R22, and 300cb are with regard to insurability? I'd like to move through my training and be employable on all three ships, but I've heard a couple of different answers on this so I figured I'd ask the group.

 

Thanks guys....

 

I'm an instructor at a flight school in Lakeland, Florida (not Silver State) and I had about 140 hours in the 300CB and 60 hours in the R22 when I started working here. Most flight schools cannot insure instructors unless they have at least 200 hours. Of course the FARs state that you need at least 200 hours total time to be an instructor in the R22 or R44 and at least 50 hours in the R22. So that is why I did my time the way I did.

 

We also have an R44 and I had to pay for 25 hours (at cost thank goodness) in order to instruct in the R44.

 

For the 300 series there is no FAA minimum time in order to instruct in it but you will be limited by the insurance restrictions of the school. My former school required 200 hours total time in order to insure instructors in the 300.

 

Hope that helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just pulled out the policy:

100,00/1,000,000

$10,299.52

 

Hull:

$400,000 R44

$200,000 R22

deductible of 10,000 or 5% of the loss which ever is greater

$16,531.70

 

I can email the sample policy I got if anyone wants to take a look at it.

Sky2@email.com

 

That is a 2.7% hull rate, even Pathfinder isn't that cheap...

 

Is that for flight training and rental, or pleasure and business? What uses are covered?

 

Even for P&B coverage, that is downright cheap... If it is for flight training and rental, then I'd want to see who is underwriting the insurance, because that is so far below market rate, I'd be concerned about being paid on a claim. Then the next question is, would my bank accept them. :)

 

(not all banks and finance companies will accept Pathfinder either of course)

 

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had similar questions. Prime insurance is the underwriter. They are nationwide. I did not have any problems with the bank, because I got more coverage than I had at Pathfinder. Prime has all the government requirements that are mostly state controlled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone else hear that the S-far for the Robbie was supposed to be drastically adjusted soon so as to not be as restrictive as it is now? One of the instructors I fly with told me that Frank has said as much and that it is supposed to happen pretty soon.

Wonder if that will possibly change ins. carrier policies/requirements?

 

The Sfar is set to expire in a year or less. So anything can happen with what Frank ask's the FAA for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this subject, so allow me to clear this up a bit. I own a flight school and have been through the insurance issues for all three types...

 

The Robinson R-22 requires at least 200 hours per the SFAR 73 requirements, and there are insurance companies out there that will go along with that, however few flight schools use them due to cost. Pathfinder is the most used insurance company because it is the least expensive. Pathfinder requires 300 hours total helicopter time, 50 hours in the R-22.

 

The Robinson R-44 also requires 200 hours per the SFAR 73 requirements, however insurance almost always will require more. Pathfinder requires 500 hours total helicopter time, 50 hours in the R-44. I've gotten insurance quotes that would allow someone with 250 hours total helicopter time, 25 hours in the R-44 to teach, however the cost of that insurance was triple the cost of Pathfinder. Thus, we use Pathfinder due to the price.

 

So the answer to your question is, "it depends"... Different schools use different insurance companies, each has their own rules about what is required. A key point to keep in mind is that aviation insurance is a small industry. There are a grand total of 5 insurance companies that will write helicopter training insurance... AIG, Aerospace, US Specialty, W. Brown, and Pathfinder. The first three will cover all three types, W. Brown is Schweizer only and Pathfinder is Robinson only.

 

Not much to pick from.

 

The way we get around the Pathfinder insurance issue is to put newly hired CFIs in the Schweizer for a few months, once they build up 300 hours of helicopter time, they can start teaching in the R-22. After 500 hours, if they have the 50 hours of R-44 time, they can teach in that too.

 

Hopefully this answers your question and clears it up a bit...

 

Jason

This question is for Jason(jehh).........I'm trying to get an idea of monies needed for flight school....You said you own a school, so my question is what does your school cost from day one to 200hrs????

Money is always the issue so I'm trying to wrap my head around what it's going to take to make it happen.

thanks

 

 

toad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...