Buying and Training in my own Helicopter

[Ralphieflies]

I am looking to buy and train on my own Helicopter. Any advice on what to purchase under $100k? Is it easy to find instructors willing to train on student owned craft? I have owned 6 fixed wing aircraft so renting is not my thing.

[jehh]

An older R-22 Beta can be had for under $100K. A few models of Hughes 269, Bell 47, and such can be had as well. You also could consider a Rotorway or other experimental, however finding a CFI for those would be more of a challenge.

 

CFIs are all over, if you're willing to make the effort, you'll find one. Or you can work with a school and use their CFIs to teach in your helicopter. Keep in mind that most schools will require that you carry liability insurance that covers them (as well as you), for obvious reasons.

 

If you're near North Texas, drop me a PM, I'd be happy to help.

[nocarsgo]

here's a hughes 300b in your range.

 

http://www.flyprecision.com/website/Sales/Sales_N11212.html

[Optigirl]

Here are a few more helicopters to look over as well.

~LD

 

 

->Link<-

Edited August 31, 2007 by Optigirl

[apiaguy]

I am an advocate of ownership! In my opinion the early hughes 269A and B are some of the best helicopters for the money.

One of the biggest reasons is that the line of helicopters is still produced today (269C) so parts are more readily available. Add to that they were used as army trainers for years so surplus parts can be purchased and used on the helicopter. They are simple machines with smaller engines and operating costs compared to some of the larger bell 47's. They are more substantial than an R22 and have many advantages over them.... namely, no factory overhaul required (or field overhaul) at a high cost. Yes, of course they do have their own issues and main rotor blades with adequate time seems to be one of the biggest.

 

Depending on where you are located, getting a cfi to help can be a little bit of a trick.

 

Good luck!

[rick1128]

I would be very careful when buying surplus military parts. While they may and generally do come of the same production line, they do not have the required paperwork and traceability of the civilian parts. So it could be possible to end up in a situation similar to other operators of having to purchase the part twice and do the work twice. While it may not seem too important as there are other operators doing similar things, when you go to sell the machine, it is likely you may difficulty doing so.

[apiaguy]

Rick1128.... while I agree in general with your concern over military surplus parts I would have to disagree in regards to the Hughes 269 helicopter series. They do have required paperwork and traceability and are THE SAME as their civilian counterpart. The 269 series (particularly the 269A....TH-55A) was a type certified product purchased by the army and the helicopter was and is eligible for a standard airworthiness certificate.

OK, yes the manufacturer (currently Schweizer) wants you to buy new parts and not use anything surplus because that cuts into their bottom dollar, so surplus components are not eligible for the factory overhaul program on main and tail rotor transmissions. Otherwise, if you have the military records and you are a part 91 operator you can safely and legally use those surplus parts and not have to worry about being able to resell the aircraft.

 

Some of the other previously military helicopters don't enjoy the same benefit because they were slightly modified when sent to the military and are slightly different from their civilian counterparts and those manufacturers have tried very hard to not support their use in the civilian market until recently when they finally realized there was a healthy market for such aircraft and have even attempted to refurbish the aircraft and slap a new data plate on it and call it type certified.

 

One last note on the suggestion to look at the rotorway.... I would advise against it. It is a nice helicopter, but I would consider it more of a toy (sorry, I'm probabally going to take some slack for that) It doesn't stand up to the abuse of the certified models and does not have the performance of the other aircraft (yes it will fly faster than the 269's but that's about it... severly limited in altitude and payload... great for the guy who wants to build his own and fly a little.... that's why there are so many 200 hour and less ships out there)

[rick1128]

Apia - I have been looking for a 269 project for some time and have found that many of the parts out there have NO documentation. Some military parts have traceability. Some do not. One needs to be careful. Right now there is a TH55 for sale on Ebay. It sounds like a good deal until you find out that the current owner has NO records of any sort, there are NO data plates and no paperwork. Whoever buys it basically is buying a maybe homebuilt? So one needs to be careful buying surplus parts.

 

As for homebuilts. I have looked at them. The Rotorway seems popular, but you see a lot of them on Ebay or Barmstormers.com without a lot of time on them. I have heard horror stories about the Mini 500. And there are also a lot of them on Ebay or Barmstormers.com with almost no time on them. The only homebuilt helicopter I would consider is the Safari (aka Baby Belle). They have been in production since 1978 with a lot of kits sold and almost none for sale on Ebay or Barmstormers.com.

[apiaguy]

Rick, you're right but it is not only military surplus that don't have records... In the helicopter industry you always have to be very diligent in buying anything used as people can be unscrupulous in their reporting of time limited components.

NEVER buy any helicopter or helicopter part unless it has good records... unless you plan on going experimental with it.

 

I have seen the 269 on ebay currently..... stay away unless you plan experimental and you may even have trouble then. You should ask others for help when purchasing any aircraft if you are not totally familiar with that aircraft or type.

 

If you want a 269 project pm me.... I have a few... all with records.

[TreeBlender]

What does it cost to operate an R22 or similar craft per hour when you break down the insurance, fuel maitenance etc. Is it a substantial difference or are the schools barely making any income in todays market?

[apiaguy]

Robinson lists the R22 operating costs without insurance currently as $90/hr..... pathfinder liability and hull insurance runs approx. $7400 per year.. so depends on how many hours you fly per year as to that cost per hour. Their calculation based on 500 hours per year (very typical usage for a flight school) adds $14/hour to the operating cost making the total $104/hr.

 

Schweizer lists the 300cbi operating costs at $90/hr also...

 

 

If you visit either manufacturers web site they break down all those costs based on "typical" usage.

[joker]

Well I certainly wouldn't buy this one. Look at the blades. Aligned all wrong. 90-90-180. Serious resonance.

 

 

 

That's probably why its so cheap!

 

Joker

Edited September 1, 2007 by joker

[jehh]

Robinson lists the R22 operating costs without insurance currently as $90/hr.....

 

That is low since they are not counting the cost of a true factory overhaul in there. Add $9/hr for that, plus fuel burn is higher than 8/gal hour in training, so add another $8/hr for that, and so on...

 

It really costs about $110/hr to operate a R-22 these days, then you have to add insurance, hanger, and aircraft payment to that price. I figure it costs me around $190/hr to operate the helicopter including all those items @ 800 hours a year. We charge $220/hr for it, so our profit margin is not that big...

 

pathfinder liability and hull insurance runs approx. $7400 per year..

 

For personal use, sure... For a flight school buying a new one the cost is closer to $12K a year...

 

Schweizer lists the 300cbi operating costs at $90/hr also...

 

Sigh, don't even get me started on that one.

 

It costs about $140/hr to operate a 300CBi in a flight school, not counting insurance, hanger, or payment...

[TreeBlender]

Robinson lists the R22 operating costs without insurance currently as $90/hr..... pathfinder liability and hull insurance runs approx. $7400 per year.. so depends on how many hours you fly per year as to that cost per hour. Their calculation based on 500 hours per year (very typical usage for a flight school) adds $14/hour to the operating cost making the total $104/hr.

 

Schweizer lists the 300cbi operating costs at $90/hr also...

If you visit either manufacturers web site they break down all those costs based on "typical" usage.

 

So if a guy bought a $100,000 R22, could he get someone to instruct on it for $100/hr? If so that'd be around half the cost of a flight school. Sounds very tempting to go that route. I could do my coversion for $15,000 only. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

jehh you only charge $220/hr for the R22?? How much for dual?? In Canada the R22 dual rents for $460/hr. Our dollar isn't much lower anymore, it'd almost be worth it to go get the american licence and convert if the costs are that variable.

Edited September 1, 2007 by TreeBlender

[apiaguy]

Well..... jehh..... that's why I quoted the manufacturers numbers because there are alot of variables in helicopter ownership and "cost of operation"

 

For a personal operation I will give you my numbers.... currently I fly a hughes 269A and a hughes 269B. I flew the A model 160 hours last year and the B model only 80 hours.

I paid cash for both aircraft so I don't have any loan payment.

I don't pay any insurance on either aircraft because I am self-insured.

Gas.. figure $3.80 for the past year... $10944

I am an Inspection authorized A&P so maintenance was on my spare time

The parts for annual for both ships ran about $2000 last year (new belts on one, new bearings on another..etc..)

I have a huge spare parts inventory that I got with one of the purchases (3-4 other aircraft worth) so I rarely have to buy time components.

Hanger cost me $500 lease for the year (I already own the building)

hmm.. what else..

 

So for about $13444 I flew 240 hours last year... that equals $57 per hour

 

Like I said ALOT of variables.... none of that includes the cost of purchasing all that stuff.. I won't mention how much that was... but I plan on getting more out of it when I sell it all.

Edited September 1, 2007 by apiaguy

[jehh]

So if a guy bought a $100,000 R22, could he get someone to instruct on it for $100/hr? If so that'd be around half the cost of a flight school. Sounds very tempting to go that route. I could do my coversion for $15,000 only. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

$100/hr isn't going to cover your cost to turn rotorblades, much less pay someone to teach you in it...

 

Unless of course you plan to pay cash, self-insure, leave it outside on the ramp, do almost no maintenance to it, and not count the loss in value from the hours flown off it.

 

$54/hr is the reserve for the overhaul, it burns 10/gal hour, so that is about $100/hr right there. Then you have to do oil changes, 100 hour inspections, annuals, and of course unscheduled maintenance.

 

Most CFIs are going to want to be paid as well...

 

jehh you only charge $220/hr for the R22?? How much for dual?? In Canada the R22 dual rents for $460/hr. Our dollar isn't much lower anymore, it'd almost be worth it to go get the american licence and convert if the costs are that variable.

 

$50/hr for the CFI, so $270/hr for dual instruction.

 

Many people do come to America to do just that, because flying here costs so much less than it does anywhere else.

[jehh]

Well..... jehh..... that's why I quoted the manufacturers numbers because there are alot of variables in helicopter ownership and "cost of operation"

 

Fair enough... I just don't think those numbers are very realistic, even for a private owner. Better to budget little more and be happy with the results than to not plan for an unexpected bill.

 

For one thing, Robinson quotes those numbers out at 500 hours a year. How many private owners fly that many hours a year? I'll bet many don't fly over 50 hours a year.

 

I paid cash for both aircraft so I don't have any loan payment.

 

No, but you do have the lost time value of money by paying cash... Of course you don't write a check every month, but you also don't gain the income from that money while it is sitting in the helicopters.

 

Not taking that into account is a commonly overlooked factor in calculating the cost of ownership.

 

I don't pay any insurance on either aircraft because I am self-insured.

 

That should still cost you money, because it has to be budgeted for. In accounting terms, "no insurance" and "self-insurance" are not the same thing. Self-insurance involves setting aside money on a time or hourly basis to cover accidents.

 

If you have an accident and destroy a helicopter, your cost of ownership gets very expensive indeed.

 

I am an Inspection authorized A&P so maintenance was on my spare time

 

Again, you should account for your time, if you're trying to calculate an operating cost.

 

The parts for annual for both ships ran about $2000 last year (new belts on one, new bearings on another..etc..) I have a huge spare parts inventory that I got with one of the purchases (3-4 other aircraft worth) so I rarely have to buy time components.

 

Hmm, do I know these helicopters? You're not in North Texas by any chance, just West of Fort Worth?

 

Hanger cost me $500 lease for the year (I already own the building)

hmm.. what else..

 

So for about $13444 I flew 240 hours last year... that equals $57 per hour

 

That is what you wrote checks for, but that is not what it cost you to fly those hours. At least not from a long term perspective.

 

Look, please do not take the above as picking your post apart, I fully understand that if you can afford to pay cash for all that, already own the land and hanger, are an A&P, and are doing this for fun, you can calculate the numbers that way. My point is that you're not really accounting for the costs the way a business has to (that is why they call it accounting), so your cost to fly is not something that anyone here should read, and figure they can duplicate.

 

A Hughes 269/Schweizer 300 series helicopter costs about $140/hr to operate if you're flying a good number of hours, not counting insurance, hanger, or cost of money.

 

Anyone thinking of buying one to training, then selling it, needs to know that.

 

Fly Safe!

[Scarab]

After you've learned to fly in your own ship everytime you fly it you will remember all the times you banged it around in training, assuming you didn't wreck it. You will not honestly be able to resell it and state no training. Learn in someone else's ship then go buy your own if your still in the mood. They say high time airplane pilots can be the most dangerous helicopter students, primacy of training can get you into trouble in the helo when your fixed wing training kicks in.

 

Free advice is always worth what you paid.

[NORCALAP]

Hello I'm new to the helicopter seen, but am looking at a 269a.My main concern is it has 250 hours left on the main rotors. I dont see alot for sale. Is there someone who sells decent blades, if not what happens when they time out? The helicopter I'm looking at is cheap enough I could afford to money into it if the parts are out there.

[KevO]

For fun, I just did the math based on my local cost for training including (Private, Commercial, Instrument, ATP, CFI and CFII - total 230 hours) here's how it worked out in a $115k Schweizer 300 CBi I just found online:

(assumes you can come up with the $23k down payment - none of this is necessary if you can pay cash)

Premise is that it will take 12 months to do 230 hours (flying 1 hour a day 5 days a week) or any combination for 1 year.

Did both monthly for budgeting and annual cost:

@9% interest (probably high, but just used it anyway)

Tax on the pruchase  (in CA where I am) = .0775 (7.5%) = $8,913 (right off the top)

So Principle and Interest on the Loan = $814 /mo = $9,768

$140/hr (includes insurance and maintenance) X 230 hrs (over 12 months) =  $2,683/mo =$32,200

Fuel $3/gallon X 16 Gallons/hr X230 hrs = $920/mo = $11,040

Hangar Fees = $500/mo (could be less) = $6,000

Subtotal with your own 300 CBi  (to purchase and train in )= $4,917/mo. or $59,004 (for the year you were learning).

 

So it cost you $59,004 (cost to own for 1 yr) + $23,000 down payment on a $115,000 300CBi + $8,913 Tax on purchase

So out of pocket $90,917

Now after the training (12 months later) you sell the $115,000 300CBi for say $105,000 (I mean you only put 230 hours on it).

Broker Commission = $10,500 (10%)

Let's call the paperwork $1000

$105,000 - $10,500 -$1,000 = $93,500 

Net proceeds from sale $93,500

Less the cost of all your payments, insurance, hanger fees, gas, down payment...

$93,500 (from sale of 300CBi) - $90,917(cost to buy and own a 300CBi) = $2,583 profit and you learned how to fly and got all qualifications necessary to get an instructor job.

You could keep it, but then you better get some students in it and add some for additional insurance.

If you paid for the schooling and they provided the helicopter for rent it would be $96,920 .

Buying it you pay initially and recoup it all back. Renting from the school, you pay and never see the money again.

I trained years ago and I was around 36 and while I was in flight school, I met a 25 yr old kid who was waiting for his lesson. I asked what he was flying and he pointed to a MD 500 (don't remember which one) and said, "that one". I was blown away. I said, I never see it here, he said, I park it at home (nearby)... He said, 'it's already sold, I'm just using it for my lessons. He bought it, used it for his lessons and sold it paying almost nothing for the whole ball of wax.

We were both already solo student pilots so the next week I went up with him and he may or may not have let me fly it a bit. It may or may not have been amazing!

Got me thinking. The next time I want training, I'm gonna buy one.

[helonorth]

The people that gave you $92,000 are probably going to want their money back.

[helonorth]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:16 PM, KevO said:

 

 

 

Less the cost of all your payments, insurance, hanger fees, gas, down payment...

 

...AND the 90 large it's going to take to pay off the loan. No where do you show paying off the loan. The payment you provide indicates a 20 year term, so you will still owe over $90K after one year. You also will need to adjust your fuel cost as av gas is about $6 a gallon, not $3. A CBi burns about 12 GPH, so you'll have a fuel cost of about $17,280, not $11,040. I think you are way low at $140 an hour for maintenance and insurance. I'd say it's $200, minimum. Add another $15K.  Also, no ATP until you have 1200 hours.

 

300CBi $115,000

Sales tax $8,900

Fuel $17,000

Maintenance and insurance $46,000 (230 hours)

Payments and interest $9,700

Hangar $6,000

That comes to $185,600. After 1 year,  you sell it and net $93,500. You then pay off the loan balance which will be around $90,500 (most of the payments will have gone to interest). 

$185,600 outlay ($115,000 for aircraft, $70,600 for fuel hangar, MX, etc) minus $3,000 net on sale (after paying off loan).

$182,600 total cost minus $90,500 loan payoff= 

$92,100 for one year of ownership and 230 hours.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by helonorth

[KevO]

21 hours ago, helonorth said:

The people that gave you $92,000 are probably going to want their money back.

Why is that?  The ship was purchased at $115k used for 230 hours and then sold for $105k

[helonorth]

YOU HAVE A LOAN. According to you, you hypothetically lost $21,500 on the sale of the aircraft after one year plus incurred 70K in expenses. 

[KevO]

On 12/14/2022 at 3:16 PM, KevO said:

For fun, I just did the math based on my local cost for training including (Private, Commercial, Instrument, ATP, CFI and CFII - total 230 hours) here's how it worked out in a $115k Schweizer 300 CBi I just found online:

(assumes you can come up with the $23k down payment - none of this is necessary if you can pay cash)

Premise is that it will take 12 months to do 230 hours (flying 1 hour a day 5 days a week) or any combination for 1 year.

Did both monthly for budgeting and annual cost:

@9% interest (probably high, but just used it anyway)

Tax on the pruchase  (in CA where I am) = .0775 (7.5%) = $8,913 (right off the top)

So Principle and Interest on the Loan = $814 /mo = $9,768

$140/hr (includes insurance and maintenance) X 230 hrs (over 12 months) =  $2,683/mo =$32,200

Fuel $3/gallon (taken from current spot JetA prices) X 16 Gallons/hr X230 hrs = $920/mo = $11,040

Corrected fuel cost @$6/gallon = $1,840/mo. = $22,080

Hangar Fees = $500/mo (could be less) = $6,000

Subtotal with your own 300 CBi  (to purchase and train in )= $4,917/mo. or $59,004 (for the year you were learning).

So it cost you $59,004 (cost to own for 1 yr) + $23,000 down payment on a $115,000 300CB

So out of pocket $90,917 

Corrected: So it cost you $78,961 (cost to own for 1 yr) + $23,000 down payment on a $115,000 300CBi 

Corrected for Gas Correction out of Pocket - $101,961

Now after the training (12 months later) you sell the $115,000 300CBi for say $105,000 (I mean you only put 230 hours on it).

Broker Commission = $10,500 (10%)

Let's call the paperwork $1000

$105,000 - $10,500 -$1,000 = $93,500 

Net proceeds from sale $93,500

Forgotten Loan Payoff - $113,000

Less the cost of all your payments, insurance, hanger fees, gas, down payment...

$93,500 (from sale of 300CBi) - $90,917(cost to buy and own a 300CBi) = $2,583 profit and you learned how to fly and got all qualifications necessary to get an instructor job.

Corrected:

$93,500 (from sale of 300CBi) - $101,961 (cost to buy and own a 300CBi) - $113,000 (loan payoff) =

$121,461 you learned how to fly and got all qualifications necessary to get an instructor job.

You could keep it, but then you better get some students in it and add some for additional insurance.

If you paid for the schooling and they provided the helicopter for rent it would be $96,920 .

Buying it you pay initially and recoup it all back. Renting from the school, you pay and never see the money again.

I trained years ago and I was around 36 and while I was in flight school, I met a 25 yr old kid who was waiting for his lesson. I asked what he was flying and he pointed to a MD 500 (don't remember which one) and said, "that one". I was blown away. I said, I never see it here, he said, I park it at home (nearby)... He said, 'it's already sold, I'm just using it for my lessons. He bought it, used it for his lessons and sold it paying almost nothing for the whole ball of wax.

We were both already solo student pilots so the next week I went up with him and he may or may not have let me fly it a bit. It may or may not have been amazing!

Got me thinking. The next time I want training, I'm gonna buy one.

EDIT: Looks like renting it is a better deal. 

Renting is $96,920 (no aircraft when done)

Owning is $121,461 (no aircraft when done)

 

I guess the guy I knew made it work because he did it so fast, he had no payments and turned it around immediately.

Also, the $140/hr. of maintenance is the avg. if the ship was not scheduled for any major maintenance it would be much less. The next guy would be paying for that as he/she would be owning it permanently. 

See corrections above.