Swithing a Beta to a 360 instead of a 320

[702Helicopters]

I have purchased my forst R22, its a beta very clean. I was thinking of changing the engine to an O-360-J2A instead of the 320 that is in it so that it would be just like the Beta 2 . I have heard that there used to be a mention in a manual about how to do this and what else needed to be replaced but that is no longer in the book. Has anyone ever heard of this being done? Can anyone shed some light on this?

[klmmarine]

First off, why? If you have a nice clean Beta why do you want to possibly mess it up, by switching engines and messing with the systems? Unless you live in a high altitude region, or you are consistently flying heavy loads with maximum performance flight profiles, a Beta can do just as much as a Beta II. The only time I ever notice a difference is when I am flying in the mountains doing pinnacles, or confined area landings at higher altitudes. And even then with proper power management it works out fine.

 

Now if you are really curious about trying to do this, you NEED to contact the Robinson Factory and make sure that, 1. It is possible. 2. It is legal. 3. It is practical (cost wise) Just look up their website and there are plenty of contact phone numbers for people that would probably be happy to answer your questions.

 

The next time I see Frank I will ask him what he thinks about swapping engines.

[apiaguy]

Yes it can be done.... only at the factory.

 

 

Well, I suppose via a STC it can be done in the field but that would cost more than the helicopter.... so my first response still stands as the only way.

 

klmmarine.... why the angst? You are not messing with any systems by changing engines....

I believe the 360 provides a little more security when you find yourself in trouble, you may need that last blip of power.

 

jeez... it's just money.

[Collective Down!]

702helicopters, i have a couple questions for you before i offer you my two cents...

1. what year is your beta?
   
2. what's the total time on the ship, and time since overhaul?
   
3. are the times since overhaul the same between engine and airframe?
   
4. how many hours are on the -4 MR blades?
   
5. where are you based? (most importantly, is it a saltwater environment)
   
6. what is the elevation where you are based and what altitude will you typically be operating at?
   
7. is your beta an instrument trainer?
   
8. what do you use the helicopter for?
   

my first reaction to your question is ",you should have gotten a beta II" but maybe you got one of those irresistable deals, i don't know... i'd be really shy about doing something like that myself because it might make it nearly impossible to sell. your resultant overhaul times may end up out of sync or just the fact that it's an odd-duck might scare away potential buyers.

 

i don't know if this is your first aircraft, but this statement will ring true some day... "the only thing better than the day you buy the aircraft is the day you finally sell it."

[apiaguy]

What the heck are you guys talking about???? collective down.........?????

 

If you send it to the factory and they install the 360, it will become a beta II.... there will not be a penalty for it being a "odd duck"... quite the opposite.... yes you may have engine/airframe/component time differences but that WILL NOT hurt resale... it will only hurt the amount you paid for it vs. what it is worth with the remaining component times.

[Collective Down!]

What the heck are you guys talking about???? collective down.........?????

 

If you send it to the factory and they install the 360, it will become a beta II.... there will not be a penalty for it being a "odd duck"... quite the opposite.... yes you may have engine/airframe/component time differences but that WILL NOT hurt resale... it will only hurt the amount you paid for it vs. what it is worth with the remaining component times.

 

i'm not arguing about wether or not it can be done, i'm just questioning the reasoning behind it and the end result of a modification like that.

 

i disagree with the beta becoming a beta II after the new engine installation... the best thing i can relate it to is a 172R (with a 160 horsepower engine originally) that gets upgraded to 180hp (making it exactly like the 172S) by only changing the propeller and a couple of instruments.... it gets a gross weight increase and everything, but it's still a 172R.

 

to my knowledge, you can't change the aircraft type on an airworthiness certificate.

 

what about all the other things that are different between the two? rotor rpm limits, gross weight, etc. are you telling me those would change as well?

 

apiaguy, show me just one R22 beta that has an O-360 engine on controller or trade-a-plane or anywhere else for that matter. i'm not saying it can't be done, but it would be an extremely unusual helicopter... and in my book, that makes it an odd duck.

 

sure, you may have the most wicked beta when you're done with all that work, but i guarantee any smart buyer after that would pass it up for a beta II. even if it could hold a value equivilant to a beta II afterwards, 702 will never recoupe the money he'd have to sink into the project to make the change.

 

who knows... maybe 702 got this beta for next to nothing, it's close to overhaul, and he lives in leadville and enjoys picknicks on mountain tops... if that's his deal, then maybe an O-360 is the a logical option for him. i'll be standing by to hear what his situation is.

[Goldy]

Who am I to jump into a controversial post and offer my opinion ??

 

I agree with most of the above. If you have a nice Beta, keep it that way. If you really need to buy a Beta II, then go buy one. You shouldnt see any difference at all below 2500 MSL or so....yes in the higher altitudes you have more of that power available. You can accomplish the same thing by leaving some fuel out of your tanks.

 

I dont care how much money you have, you will never get back out of this "modified" ship the cost to do it..why bother ?

 

And if its an almost timed out ship, trade it for a really timed out BII and overhaul that one instead.

 

BUT its your money.

 

Goldy

[klmmarine]

klmmarine.... why the angst? You are not messing with any systems by changing engines....

I believe the 360 provides a little more security when you find yourself in trouble, you may need that last blip of power.

 

jeez... it's just money.

 

No angst, but I hate to see somebody screw up a "nice" ship by messing with it this way. The only difference that he will see is if he is using it at high altitude. You can only pull 131 HP (5min take off) in either the Beta, or the Beta II, due to the construction of the transmission and drive train. So it just seems silly to me to change the engine, just to have a higher power engine. Save the money, save on fuel, and don't mess with a good thing.

[Pogue]

to my knowledge, you can't change the aircraft type on an airworthiness certificate.

 

what about all the other things that are different between the two? rotor rpm limits, gross weight, etc. are you telling me those would change as well?

 

apiaguy, show me just one R22 beta that has an O-360 engine on controller or trade-a-plane or anywhere else for that matter. i'm not saying it can't be done, but it would be an extremely unusual helicopter... and in my book, that makes it an odd duck. <_>

Actually per the maintenance manual all R-22's share the same type certificate - H10WE. Specifically mentioned are the R-22, the R-22 Alpha, the R22 Beta and the R-22 Mariner. The HP, Beta II and Mariner II are not separately mentioned. Also, in the type certificate the R22 Beta is described as having either the 0-320-B2C or the O360-J2A. The school I fly at has at least one R-22 Beta with an O-360-J2A in it and I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Of course, I don't see anything wrong with a Beta with the O-320 in it as far as that goes...with the governor, of course!

[apiaguy]

Thanks Pogue for the response.

 

I think some of you are misunderstanding the conversion.... This is a factory modification that would essentially make the aircraft a Beta II FROM THE FACTORY! Now it may still have its original serial number that would correspond to the beta.. but it would now be EXACTLY like a Beta II...... That is all I'm trying to say... IF you did this you would not depreciate the aircraft simply because the conversion has been done.

 

 

Obviously the conversion would cost more than just sticking with the 320

 

Now this whole thread is just hilarious.

 

I encourage everyone to read the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the R-22..... see note 11

[FauxZ]

Thanks Pogue for the response.

 

I think some of you are misunderstanding the conversion.... This is a factory modification that would essentially make the aircraft a Beta II FROM THE FACTORY!

 

 

This is incorrect. It will not be exactly like a Beta II from the factory, as Pogue mentioned, our school has one, we know first hand... The fact of the matter is the paint on the side still says "Beta." How could anyone live with such false advertising!!!

 

 

[Collective Down!]

IF you did this you would not depreciate the aircraft simply because the conversion has been done.

 

Are you telling me that an R22 with 800 hours on the engine, 1200 on the blades, and 1800 on the airframe doesn't ding the value one cent?

 

If you switched engines at a factory overhaul, it's almost justifyable.... but doing it mid-life would be rediculous if the 320 is still good.

 

I glanced at every post on this thread again and I don't think anyone is arguing with your position that it CAN be done at the factory... But there are at least two aircraft owners on the thread that recommended against it. Most other makes of helicopters have component times that are scattered all over the place, but that's one of the reasons people are drawn to Robinsons, because it's all supposed to go for overhaul at the same time making it easier to own. I'm talking about premium personally owned aircraft, not the ones subjected to the day-to-day beating of a flight school.

[heligirl03]

Hmm, this thread is interesting to me, b/c the a/c i am flying right now is officially an Alpha (choke, i know) but its recent factory overhaul added the bits and pieces (larger cooling units, for engine and oil right?) that make it a Beta. Slightly different situation as the engine itself is the same, and when flying it we KNOW it's got Beta capabilities. But officially, it's still an Alpha. All its papers and even its new paint job say Alpha and apparently it's not worth going through the process to bless it as a Beta. What exactly would this include?? So, while we know we mechanically can get 131HP (derated of course) out of it for 5min, we have to fly it as an Alpha with only a max continuous 124HP. My school owner has 40+ Robbies, he's A&P, most of them are leased but we see every possible configuration at one point or another coming through home base. It's actually pretty cool, i have learned so much about power management just from all the differently configured R22s.

 

Anyway, the part of this thread that confused me was where someone mentioned that the R22 Type Certificate covers all models and yet we can't say it's a Beta even though physically it is. I guess I have no idea on that one...but I'd like to know if someone wants to share! And also, why bother upgrading if you can't officially use the upgrade anyway without jumping through major hoops? Again, not sure what those hoops are...

[Pogue]

Anyway, the part of this thread that confused me was where someone mentioned that the R22 Type Certificate covers all models and yet we can't say it's a Beta even though physically it is. I guess I have no idea on that one...but I'd like to know if someone wants to share! And also, why bother upgrading if you can't officially use the upgrade anyway without jumping through major hoops? Again, not sure what those hoops are...

While all R-22's are covered in the same type certificate, the Standard, Alpha, Beta and Mariner each have their own specifications. Looking at the certificates and the maintenance manual it looks like aside from a couple of minor things the difference between an Alpha and a Beta is the Beta is certificated for a 5 minute take off rating and the Alpha is not. Since they're designated by serial number range it apparently doesn't matter what upgrades are installed. I've heard that people have tried to get the Gross Weight for the Standard and HP increased to 1370 and the FAA doesn't buy that either.

[mechanic]

apiaguy, show me just one R22 beta that has an O-360 engine on controller or trade-a-plane or anywhere else for that matter. i'm not saying it can't be done, but it would be an extremely unusual helicopter... and in my book, that makes it an odd duck. <_>

 

Trade A Plane:

1989 ROBINSON R22, 4hrs since overhaul, 4200 total converted to Beta 2 as per note 11 in Robinson manual., aux tank, primer, GPS, VOR, instrument cooling fan, red, tan interior, much more. $153k. WA/(360) 298-0352. http://tappix.com/782094

 

I've heard that people have tried to get the Gross Weight for the Standard and HP increased to 1370 and the FAA doesn't buy that either.

 

Pogue,

I wrote RHC about the HP and getting the extra 70lbs gross. They replied with a letter to the effect that it would require too many structural changes and data plate change. And, said they won't do it. I would have to dig the letter up if you want a word for word what they said. I didn't ask them about the Beta upgrades.

 

People, it's a frikin R-22!!

 

Why the anger dude! Fixed wingers upgrade and change performance of their aircraft all the time. Why would you have a problem with it in helicopters? There are companies that STC engine packages for turbine helicopters all the time. I am pretty sure you can legally put the OI Lyc in the CB at overhaul. I remember a thread about this subject, the guy was having it done on his bird at overhaul and was gonna cost him an extra $5G's.

[nsdqjr]

People, it's a frikin R-22!!

 

I wonder if Yugo owners argue about this kinda stuff.....

[jehh]

yes you may have engine/airframe/component time differences but that WILL NOT hurt resale... it will only hurt the amount you paid for it vs. what it is worth with the remaining component times.

 

Sure it will, I won't buy it, thus there is at least one less potential buyer out there. There are others like me, which makes it harder to sell, thus you get less for it all else being equal.

 

Free market economics is wonderful, isn't it?

[helimech]

Question? Can you install an O-360-J2A in a R22 Beta with an O-320-B2C?

 

Answer. YES!!!!!!!

 

In the eyes of the FAA and the TCDS there is no such thing as a Beta II. There simply are Beta's with either an O-320 or an O-360.

 

I have in fact converted 3 so far. It is best accomplished during the 2200 hour overahul as it requires quite a few modifications. It add about $15,000.00 to the cost of an overhaul. When all is said and done, you have a fresh 2200 hour overhaul and better altitude performance. If you need the performance, then its a good idea. If you don't, then its a large expense not likely to be recovered when you sell your machine.

 

If you choose this route, be very selective in your service center. This is not a simple conversion and most of the RHC service centers popping up around the country have little or no experience in performing the basic requirements for the overhaul, let alone a conversion such as this. Also different FSDO's and inspectors look at this in different ways. Some may be fine with it, others won't.

 

I have had the dis-pleasure of inspecting quite a number of these "feild overhauls" and have found very few that actually meet the basic airworthiness requirements. My recommendation to one owner was "take it back immediatly (on a truck) and have it redone correctly". I gave the poor guy a list of squawks 276 items long, and didn't even begin a detailed inspection. This with 26 hours since overhaul.

 

Be very careful, and remember you get precisely what you pay for.

[amphibpilot]

No, you may not install an O-360 and remain in the Normal category, at least not without an STC or field approval.

 

Here's why:

 

1. The aircraft must be airworthy. Per 14 CFR 3.5.a:

"Airworthy means the aircraft conforms to its type design and is in a condition for safe operation."

 

2. Now go to Type Certificate H10WE, Revision 14. Specifically, Note 11:

"Lycoming O-360-J2A installed on S/N 2571 and subsequent in production. Retrofit installations of the O-360-J2A engines may only be accomplished at the Robinson Helicopter Company."

 

Fly safely.

[helimech]

I stand corrected, As of Rev. 13 of the TCDS dated 06/06/2006, this is no longer possible without an STC. Having said that, it should be noted that any R22's that had engine changes prior to this change and were returned to service are still airworthy. The standard is that which was in effect at the time of the change.