Slope Landings + Running Landings in R22

[MainRotor]

Hi folks!

 

I have been reading here for a while, but only today I managed to register to make my first post. I would be very happy for some advise from fellow pilots!!

 

I am almost done with my Private Pilot and I am supposed to go on my checkride pretty soonish (next week or so). The problem is that I am not confident about slopes, and that I am not certain what is the right way for running landings.

 

Slopes:

 

I find them really difficult. I can hover and such, but as soon as I get on the slope I get nervous and you can see/feel that on my hovering a bit. We are required to lower the upslope skid first, then hold it for a bit, and slowly lower the downslope skid with the collective, and keep the fuselage level with the cyclic. We then repeat that step for step, a little collective down, a little cyclic into the slope. At the end when the downslope skid touches the ground, the cyclic is at its stop completely into the slope, and that's when we lover the collective 2/3 and check with cyclic and maybe pedals if the slope is stable or if we slip etc... only then we lover collective completely, and slowly center cyclic. You can imagine that this procedure takes a while, and that I am holding on to cyclic and collective with a death grip during that.

 

Is it is just me, is the slope we are using too steep (cyclic completely into the slope), should I practice it another way (pickups first), or what's going on with me?

 

Running Landings:

 

I actually managed to do runnings landings without problems during the first 80% of my private. Now that I am closer to the checkride, it's all just confusing. We approach the surface on 20 feet 40 knots, then lower collective to go down to a 3 to 5 feet altitude still keeping 40 knots. Then we slow it down with aft cyclic, keep 3-5 feet with the collective. When we are about to lose ETL (***), we are supposed to give forward cyclic to level, and then let the helicopter settle on the ground. We do them on asphalt, and the *** above is where I have problems.

 

I read a couple of different maneuver descriptions, some speak about when you lose ETL touch down, some say you should never ever lose ETL and touch down before you lose it, and others don't even speak about ETL they just say once you have 1" MAP less than you had on your running take off, which is not really very helpful if you didn't do a running take off before your landing ;-) My instructor doesn't say anything about ETL or MAP, he says you will just know it when to level the skids and touch down!?

 

Preparing for the Checkride:

 

I am now going out to fly a couple of more times, and I will tell my instructor to basically stop talking and interfering if he doesn't has to, and instead take notes like the examiner would. Then at the post flight we can speak about issues. This will help me to actually speak myself through the maneuvers, instead of always having the instructor still next to me telling me things (like during an AR "small flare, roll on the throttle, bigger flare, level off, raise collective")...

 

What was your experience to get ready for the checkride?

[Paisley]

Main Rotor,

Just a quick tip to make things a little easier on the slopes. If you have a choice (assuming you are in a R-22) land with the left side skid on the upslope as opposed to the right side. You will find it easier to control as the main rotor and tailrotor thrust are counter acting eachother. As far as the the run-ons, I wouldn't worry to much about airspeeds at 40kts and heights at 3-5 feet and so on and so forth, just keep the thing in ETL until you touch down, that should be the main focus. Limiting the power available to 1" below hover power is good practice as power managemant is critical in flying helicopters.

[joker]

Slopes

 

You said: "and keep the fuselage level with the cyclic."

 

I don't know whether this is a typo or what, but I think a better perception would be to aim to keep the DISC level throughout the maneuver. The fuselage will rotate with the slope of course.

 

If the cyclic is pointing essentially straight up to the sky (note that is different to centred) it will be essentially level. As your fuselage rotates down the slope, think about keeping the cyclic pointing straight up to the sky (and a little inwards).

 

Slopes are all in the left hand. This is the hand which can start the move, pause the move, reverse or abort the move. Once you have upslope skid on the slope, this hand must move SO SLOWLY, by a matter of millimeters at a time. The other controls will fall into place.

 

One last thing on slopes:

 

I think if you have reached the cyclic limits on any helicopter (especially with a teetering head) then you should go no further in your move. Even if you think you have only a couple of inches to go.

 

Running Landings

Remember as you go from 80kts to ETL you are decelerating. It doesn't feel like it, but the disc therefore must be pointing backwards, and the helicopter is sligtly pitched up. If you hold this same attitude you would go right through ETL and land with the heels first. In R22, that makes an uncomfortable fore / aft bounce.

 

So this is why you have been told to use forward cyclic at the end. Actually you are just meant to 'level' the helicopter. It is not a 'dive to the ground'. Also you are just adjusting your pitch to keep you from slowing too much and falling through ETL. From then on, use collective to control your height.

 

Whatever technique you use, the important thing is to be aligned with direction of movment (pedals) and level in fore / aft axis (cyclic). Don't forget left cyclic when both skids are down.

 

With repect to ETL, well, this move is a 'low-power' move. So I think it is pointless to practice this move below ETL. Anyone can fly a helicopter onto the ground if they have unlimited power. That's easy. So the only time you go through ETL is when touching down (or very slightly before) My opinion.

 

Good luck with it all.

 

Joker

Edited September 20, 2007 by joker

[IFLY]

Joker is right about the slopes, its all about how slowly you can do the manuver. Everytime I get in a hurry to set down it doesn't work right.

 

I like run-on landings, comes from flying gliders. I normally hover at about 21" and I keep about 15" in a low approach to about 3 feet AGL then as I slow down I slowly bring in power to about 19" just as I level and fly it slowly down to ground. Works well for me.

 

Good luck on your checkride! Let us know how it goes.

[Hovergirl]

Man, you picked my two least favorite maneuvers.

 

One thing my instructor noted to me is that if you are not pointed well parallel to the slope you will tend to teeter (i.e. yaw) a lot more and have more control issues with the pedals. I know that is a big issue for me. Just something to think about while you cautiously approach that hill.

 

Good luck! (and let us know)

 

HVG

[HelliBoy]

Two things on the slopes that may help; If you're having trouble staying stable in the hover during the maneuver you're probably looking at the ground too close to you- get your eyes up and look at the horizon! As far as yaw goes, all that pedal dancing is probably in your head- wiggle your toes; it sounds stupid but it works.

 

For running landings; I was taught to decelerate during the short final portion of a shallow approach/running landing until reaching an airspeed at which you could feel the vibrations of Transverse Flow Effect since TFE usually coincides closely with ETL. Then "ride the vibrations" to the ground with a small forward cyclic input just before touchdown.

 

As far as checkride prep goes I always try my best to put my pride and ego aside; sure I want to pass but if I dont its not the end of the world. Easier said than done but its worked well for me. Remember; as a pilot you'll be taking checkrides throughout your career, get used to it! good luck

[Copterpilot213]

I agree with what everyone is saying about the slopes and running landings.

 

Slopes require such small movements of the collective that I got to where I just had to think about lowering it and I'd descend. Make sure you keep in mind that you'll get that little "pocket of air" beneath you when you are about to set down, just like a normal setdown. Also keep in mind that you're hovering over a different surface area (unless you do slopes on asphault/concrete) and that can change the ground effect properties.

 

Checkride prep is all about working on the things you're having a hard time at. I think it's a good idea to ask your CFI to do a "Mock" checkride with you, at my school that's the standard. They actually make the mock checkride harder than the actual checkride is and that makes things a lot easier when it's time for the real thing.

 

Also here's some advice for the day before and the day of the checkride that I've put together from advice I received from a lot of great pilots:

 

 

-Get SLEEP the night before your checkride, I can't stress this enough.

 

-Figure out a time the day before your checkride where you will quit studying, (like 5PM or about 4 hours before you're going to go to sleep) if you don't know it by then the studying won't help, it'll only hurt. You need to be mentally and physically rested.

 

-Check your charts, AFD and FAR/AIM and make sure they are current before your checkride.

 

-Think about the questions the DPE asks you before answering them. Answer the question simply and let the DPE ask you more involved questions if he/she wants to go there. Never, ever expand on the answer on your own! It'll only make the DPE dig deeper.

 

-Never say "I don't know", say "I'm not positive but I know where to find the answer" and look it up in an FAA approved source.

 

-Remember that being nervous is one of the main causes of failing checkrides, keep in mind that your CFI signed you off for a reason, you know how to do everything!

 

-You can always do it again if you have to and keep in mind that the DPE has a lot to teach you.

 

-You may think you've failed but never, ever give up! If something goes wrong, take a deep breath, forget the mistake and do it again with a clear mind.

 

-If the weather is bad don't be afraid to cancel the flight. The DPE wants to get the flight done but remember you are the PIC and you make the go/no go decision. The DPE will usually respect the importance you place on safety. (I had to cancel my Pvt Checkride flight due to a line of T-storms, it wasn't positive that it would head my way, it was being pretty erratic. But I made the decision and flew the next day.)

 

-If you're shooting a bad approach, bad auto, whatever and need to go around, DO IT! The DPE will be looking for this and want you to go around if things don't look right.

 

 

 

Hope that helps, you'll do great! Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[MainRotor]

Thanks a lot to all of you. I went out and did some running landings and slopes today, I think it's getting better.

 

What's very strange is that at our school they want us to put the cyclic completely into the slope, to the stop, and keep the fuselage level until the cyclic is at the stop. And only then we are supposed to lower collective until the downslope skids touches the ground. We do this even when the slope is not that steep, which doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion but who am I with my few hours to judge. In my opinion all the thrust goes into the slope with the cyclic at the lateral stop into the slope direction, and the upslope skid in the slope. With such a lot of thrust into the slope, doesn't that somehow increase the risk of dynamic rollover _into_ the slope a lot, if you make wrong inputs or don't keep the fuselage level as you should?

 

Anyway, I'll go out tomorrow morning again to practice some more. Wiggling my toes really helped a bit, although I only did it for a fraction of a second to remind me not to over control my pedals.

 

All your tips on taking the practical are also well noted.

[Goldy]

What's very strange is that at our school they want us to put the cyclic completely into the slope, to the stop, and keep the fuselage level until the cyclic is at the stop.

 

I've never put an R22 cyclic to a stop, except during one very extreme manuever that saved 3 lives...including mine. I can't think of a reason why to teach this method, and I like the fact on a slope landing that I have more cyclic left if I need it. I think you are practicing on too steep a slope if you can push the cyclic to the stops.

 

I want the skids lightly touching the ground as I lose ETL on a run on landing...then I can make the pedal adjustments to keep it straight as I start to lower collective a bit and slow down. Biggest mistake I used to do was to "drop" the collective once skids touched...making for a very short run...I try not to do that one anymore !

Edited September 21, 2007 by Goldy

[joker]

they want us to put the cyclic completely into the slope, to the stop, and keep the fuselage level until the cyclic is at the stop. And only then we are supposed to lower collective until the downslope skids touches the ground.

 

I must absolutely disagree with this, if this is truely how you are taught. To me this sounds like a total recipie for disaster. It rings alarm bells.

 

I can see how it is done, but as a method for training, it just seems too close to limits. The student's left hand must be so controlled. Any panick could have you rolling up in a flash.

 

So where does a normal landing turn into a slope landing? When do you decide that this technique should be employed over a 'normal setdown' technique? Is there a slope angle?

 

No. I take the premise that 'evey landing is a slope landing'. In fact on close scrutinisation, I use the same method for a normal landing (where one skid naturallyhangs lower than the other) as I do for a slope landing. That is, aim to keep disc level (ok, slightly inwards) as you lower collective until both are on the ground. Its just that on a slope the technique is magnified.

 

Presumably you have to lower the collective as you put lateral cyclic. This is how you are not rolling. By reducing collective (to keep fuselage level) you are reducing the thrust vector so it does not ge you to dynamic roll situation. However, the thrust vector is now leaned so much to the side that a tiny incorrect application of lift could easily result in the roll. This is due to the geometry of the rotational forces. With the method described above, the helicopter is put into a very unnecessary position of possible upslope roll.

 

The only amount of 'inwards' cyclic required is that which keeps the helicopter skid against the slope. The thrust vector should never be close to the lateral fulcrum (the point of dynamic roll.)

 

With the method described, how do you know if the slope is too steep? You can't because you are already at the stop! To me, hitting the stop should be used as an indicator that you have no more lateral control of thrust. Upon reaching the stop, I would abort and look for another slope. I would never continue to lower the collective when the cyclic is at a stop.

 

With the method described above, it is impossible to know that you will have enough cyclic for a pickup, if you set down with the thust vector at its max. Particularly if your gross weight changes. (i.e. you shut down, load another pax on board, and then go to pick up.) Now your required power may be more, but you have no way of knowing if the thrust vector is far enough inslope for the pickup.

 

Lastly (and I can't remember for sure), but operating at the cyclic limits to me seems predisposing to mast bumping. Maybe someone can check this for me. You must also be putting a lot of inwards force on the skids (a direction they are not designed for).

 

Thanks for sharing this with us. I would certainly have a discussion with your instructor about this. Maybe you have misunderstood his intentions.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

Joker

 

Disclaimer: To MainRotor and all students. Incorrect technique with this maneuver can resalt in fatalities. Please consult your instructor. Do not follow or try anything I write here. This is my opinion. It may be wrong. Your instructor is the only person who can guide you on any maneouver technique.

[lockedcj7]

Everything below reflects what I have been taught PPL through CPL by 7 different instructors and the DE. Your opinion may be just as valid as mine, but I have good reason for holding the views that I do.

 

+1 on Joker. If you are reaching the stop, the slope is WAAAYYYY too steep. I also agree that teaching this as as technique is an accident waiting to happen. Yes Virginia, it is possible to have a dynamic rollover to the uphill side!

 

I was taught to land with the right skid on the up-slope side, lower the a/c until the skid touches and hold it into the slope with a slight amount of right cyclic. Maintain heading with the pedals while slowly lowering the collective. Keep the disk level with the horizon (which will require more and more right cyclic as the a/c settles). Once the down-slope skid is firmly on the ground, wiggle the pedals slightly to make sure that you are not going to slide. Slowly bring the collective to the full-down position and then center the cyclic. Reverse the procedure for a slope takeoff.

 

I think the helicopter is easier to land with the right skid on the up-slope side because the left skid naturally hangs lower anyway (unless you are flying solo) and the t/r thrust is helping to push you into the slope. Slope landings with the left skid on the up-slope side are sometimes necessary but must be done with extra caution. Since the right skid is usually higher, it will have to travel further through an arc to reach the ground. Since you are on the outside of the arc, it will feel like you are traveling further (which you are) and may be really uncomfortable. The T/R is trying to push you to the right (down-slope) so extra left cyclic may be required to hold the left skid into the hill. IMHO, the chances of a dynamic rollover to the downhill side are increased because of the T/R thrust.

 

As for the running landings. I find them to be really easy. I fly a shallow approach so that I don't have to pull gobs of power (which I presumably don't have) to arrest the rate of descent. I fly down the runway 8-10 feet high and let the a/c settle as I reduce power and add aft cyclic to slow down. Just above ETL, I want to be 2-3 feet above the runway. As the a/c loses ETL, it settles to the surface and I lower the collective to increase friction and stop the helicopter. While doing this, I push forward (I had an instructor who was paranoid about the disk blowing back and chopping off the tail) and maintain ground-track with the cyclic and maintain heading with the pedals.

 

I've had instructors who wanted me to bottom out the collective as soon as I touched in order to minimize the ground-run and reduce the possibility of snagging a skid. I've also had some who prefer a more gentle, smooth-and-coordinated stop. I prefer the latter.

 

Good luck with your ride.

Edited September 21, 2007 by lockedcj7

[MainRotor]

After my last flight today I am getting pretty good with slopes (both sides) and it's due to all of you guys here! I am very happy about it. Also my running landings improved a lot, and I am ready for the checkride!

 

Somehow I feel that my school and instructor are just very stubborn about their way of doing it, they want us to do it exactly as it says in their documents and if our angle is a bit off or if the airspeed is not exactly as they want it to be they'll keep having you do it again. I am not complaining, it's for sure a good way to learn but reading many different opinions and ways to accomplish things here on the forum was an eye opener.

 

Until now I thought that my schools way is the way to do it and there is no other way. Coming here helped me to feel much more relaxed and look at everything from a different angle. I also questioned my instructor on the strange slope landing procedure and his final answer was "there are probably many correct way, and that's how they want us to do it".

 

The school where I am at is one of the biggest ones in the north west. There are about 15 helicopters (R22) and I guess 50 or more students or so in total. The way how they teach us is not up to the instructors, it's basically company policy and they have an official maneuver guide. In my opinion, the "official slope" they are using is also too steep, considering that the FAA says you should avoid any slope that's more than 5°. The one we are using must be estimated 8° to 10°.

 

Before going over to type the official maneuver guide, let me add that I am way more relaxed now, and I can also do these steep slopes and I can do it their way. I will definitely try other ways (keeping the disc level basically, or in other word have the cyclic point to the horizon).

 

Here is how it goes in our maneuver guide:

 

approach the slope in a 45 degree angle

establish a 3 ft hover

clear tailboom

turn the aircraft parallel to the slope

eyes outside 100 ft in front of the helicopter

lower collective like for a normal set down

as the upslope skid touches the ground - cyclic into slope to maintain the helicopter level

maintain heading with pedals

lower collective and simultaneously more cyclic into the slope

maintain the helicopter level with cyclic (primary control for attitude!!!!)

all cyclic into the slope

control attitude with collective (primary control for attitude if cyclic is at the lateral stop)

lower collective until the downslope skid is on the ground

downslope skid is on the ground - lower collective 2/3 to increase ground friction

check ground friction with pedals

check ground friction with cyclic

collective all the way down - center cyclic - center pedals

 

I have to admit that it says "slope landing (steep slope)" on the maneuver guide, but we don't have another way and that's what we do even at the portion where it is not steep. I've had a very shallow slope yesterday along a taxiway and my CFI also wanted me to put the cyclic to the lateral stop. That's when I asked him and posted my message from yesterday.

 

Lastly (and I can't remember for sure), but operating at the cyclic limits to me seems predisposing to mast bumping. Maybe someone can check this for me. You must also be putting a lot of inwards force on the skids (a direction they are not designed for)

Exactly, that is what it says in the FAA Rotorcraft Flying Handbook.

 

Common Errors

• Failure to consider wind effects during the approach and landing.
  
• Failure to maintain proper rotor RPM throughout the maneuver.
  
• Turning the tail of the helicopter into the slope.
  
• Lowering the downslope skid or wheel too rapidly.
  
• Applying excessive cyclic control into the slope, causing mast bumping.
  

 

Once I speak to the Chief Flight Instructor next time, I'll ask him if that is really the way that we should do all kind of slopes, or if this is some kind of outdated document and forgotten thing. For now I am good to go and hope for good weather on my checkride.

Edited September 21, 2007 by MainRotor

[Copterpilot213]

Awesome, sounds like you got what you needed from us (a bunch of different informed opinions is so valuable, forums like this are great aren't they?) and from practicing and you worked things out.

 

I see good weather and a good checkride in your future. Have fun and let us know how it goes!

 

Oh and I agree that full lateral cyclic would not be the best way to do a slope landing... it's just asking for trouble in my opinion.

[Hovergirl]

Thanks for bringing all this up and good luck on your ride. Let me know what you find out -- I'm hoping to have a checkride there in the near future....

 

HVG

[Privateer]

I'm sure you'll do just fine for your checkride. Those were (are) the two hardest manuevers for me also. I'd get a little nervous while setting down the upslope skid and would then start to tense up on the cyclic, then move my focus closer to the helicopter instead of out where it should be, and of course all that just aggrevated what was my nice steady hover . I got much better on the running landings when it finally sank in about touching down in ETL.

 

For my check ride I didn't have to demonstrate a slope landing, and my running landing actually turned out to be one of my better ones . One thing I did demonstrate was a confined instead of a pinnacle (when everyone told me you never do confines on your private checkride)

 

Let us know how you did

[pa42]

I AGREE that applying ALL the cyclic in uphill direction before lowering downhill skid is asking for mast bumping. I would not teach it that way. If you are willing, I would even request the name of that school so I can diplomatically interview the Chief FI, without naming you, about how the maneuver guide got written that way . . . perhaps a PM would suffice?

 

It is possible that there is method in this madness: since standard practice is to abandon that particular slope if mast bumping begins, using ALL the cyclic,to the stop, might be one way to discover that the slope is too steep, by inducing mast bumping. (In which case, you would, of course, not continue to move the cyclic toward the slope, but would instead gently increase-collective-and-reduce-cyclic to begin abandoning that attempt at landing. And go somewhere else.)

 

I DO believe the industry standard is to use LOTS of cyclic in the uphill direction, in order to assure that the helicopter/mast/cockpit assemblage does not gather momentum in tilting downhill, AND so that your training (restricted, one hopes, to very-mild-slopes) will create proper reflexes for future professional wilderness landings you might be asked to do on truly marginally steep slopes. That is, we exaggerate the cyclic movement during training so that it will be automatic for you when you are out in the bush as a professional.

 

It should be noted that this is not particularly dangerous or conducive to dynamic rollover, because te only way to keep the skids horizontal while tilting the rotor disc uphill is to reduce the power with the collective--which is a main ingredient of any slope landing--in proportion to the cyclic/rotor disc tilt. It's self-regulating--the amount of power is governed by whether the rotor mast/cockpit remains vertical. Thus there is only microscopic side force on the skids (or the whole helicopter would start to tilt uphill, alerting you to reduce thrust).

[ArmamentDawg]

Running Landings:

 

I had problems with these until I worked out this concept. Once you're stable at 40 knots just off the runway (about 3 feet) forget the collective. Giving a touch of aft cyclic, just a touch, slight pressure, will slow you down. It is very important to understand how gentle this decelleration must be. Don't slam on the breaks, just ever so slighlty bleed off your airspeed. This reduction in airspeed will also slightly reduce lift, causing a decent. The decent will be very pronounced, and you'll lose etl if the aft cyclic is anything more than slight pressure. If you perform this menouver correctly, simply level the skids when you feel the decent and fly your copter onto the runway. It takes a bit to get used to, but this procedure will take the collective out of the equation for you, and assure your power management is perfect just before and during touchdown.