Looking for "Down Wind" Article

[Whrilwind50]

I am looking for an article that was published in one of the helicopter magazines.

 

The article argued that "Down Wind Landings" should be taught in flight training. It was very well written but I cannot find it in my collection of older magazines. It was published a year or 2 ago.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[Linc]

A "good" article advocating teaching downwind landings? No such thing! And that coming from one who has "gotten away" with a downwind landing or two. If you teach it, then you will have a greater tendency for pilots to do it. Rather, if a pilot understands why upwind landings are preferred, then that pilot will be able to plan to minimize any possibility of downwind landings. And, if they ever do one, they will hopefully be aware of the hazards enough to minimize them and to effect a successful landing. Teaching how to do downwind landings? That's like teaching how to do helicopter aerobatics as a mandatory part of PPL; you're just inviting problems to occur.

 

Granted, you didn't ask for my opinion, just the article, but this is a forum, so you get my opinion as well.

[Collective Down!]

A "good" article advocating teaching downwind landings? No such thing! And that coming from one who has "gotten away" with a downwind landing or two. If you teach it, then you will have a greater tendency for pilots to do it. Rather, if a pilot understands why upwind landings are preferred, then that pilot will be able to plan to minimize any possibility of downwind landings. And, if they ever do one, they will hopefully be aware of the hazards enough to minimize them and to effect a successful landing. Teaching how to do downwind landings? That's like teaching how to do helicopter aerobatics as a mandatory part of PPL; you're just inviting problems to occur.

 

Granted, you didn't ask for my opinion, just the article, but this is a forum, so you get my opinion as well.

 

 

Ok, so in the unfortunate event that a pilot finds himself having to do a downwind landing (regardless of the reason why) you'd rather he just figure it out for himself, or would you like him to know from EXPERIENCE how to do it correctly?

 

Does a 20 hour student pilot have to be proficient in them? absolutely not... But the instructor should at least demonstrate it so the student can see what the big deal is. I vaguely remember my first reaction to seeing a downwind landing... It wasn't at all what I was expecting, and I could see why you'd want to avoid them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do see your point Linc... Are we improving safety overall by training the downwind landing maneuver? If there is one accident per year that involves a downwind landing, would we be doing the wrong thing by increasing the rate of exposure to that risk element, and possibly increase the down-wind landing accident rate to 10/year simply because we would do it in training?... Survey Says?!?!

 

This discussion has similarities to the full-touchdown auto training for CFI. A lot of helicopters are destroyed during training and checkrides during that maneuver in particular. Should we stop doing full-downs too?

 

I'm not trying to hi-jack your post Whirlwind, I will check my pubs and see if I can find that article for ya.

 

Disclaimer: This post is gender neutral and any references or comments to he, she, him, his, or her will have the same meaning.

[captkirkyota]

Ok, so in the unfortunate event that a pilot finds himself having to do a downwind landing (regardless of the reason why) you'd rather he just figure it out for himself, or would you like him to know from EXPERIENCE how to do it correctly?

 

Does a 20 hour student pilot have to be proficient in them? absolutely not... But the instructor should at least demonstrate it so the student can see what the big deal is. I vaguely remember my first reaction to seeing a downwind landing... It wasn't at all what I was expecting, and I could see why you'd want to avoid them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do see your point Linc... Are we improving safety overall by training the downwind landing maneuver? If there is one accident per year that involves a downwind landing, would we be doing the wrong thing by increasing the rate of exposure to that risk element, and possibly increase the down-wind landing accident rate to 10/year simply because we would do it in training?... Survey Says?!?!

 

This discussion has similarities to the full-touchdown auto training for CFI. A lot of helicopters are destroyed during training and checkrides during that maneuver in particular. Should we stop doing full-downs too?

 

I'm not trying to hi-jack your post Whirlwind, I will check my pubs and see if I can find that article for ya.

 

Disclaimer: This post is gender neutral and any references or comments to he, she, him, his, or her will have the same meaning.

 

 

Agreed, one of the instructors here worked agriculture and some other things, and told me that there were a few times where the only landing that could be done, was with a tailwind, and so I've done a few in my training, only when parking the A/C after training and the wind direction was downwind now at the area we park mind you, but after the first time I did do one, which was and is a tad sketchy, my slopes improved x10! Am I talking 15 mph tail winds? NO, but an 8 mile one will make you work in a 22!

[Linc]

This subject is literally the equivalent to asking for more accidents under the guise of preventing them. We attempt to make safe pilots by teaching them how to operate within the safest possible margin, not by demonstrating how bad things can be if they choose to disregard decades of sage operating advice. Maybe we should teach downwind autos, too? Downwind takeoffs?

 

Your argument of touchdown autos is a red herring. First, you're describing training for CFIs, so the candidate is already established as a PPL with a prerequisite number of hours. Second, we know that engines fail, we have no control over that. But how many accidents are attributed to downwind landings? Probably not that many, since we train pilots to make their landings into the wind. So, let's throw that all away and pretend that we're gonna make things safer by now showing them how to do the exact thing we've been taught for years to avoid. Oh, that just sets my BS alarm ringing. We should make every effort to avoid validating poor choice or technique.

 

In an area where winds are 5-15 knots, a downwind landing would not be much of an experience, but where winds are double that, downwind can be deadly. That's why we are taught wind indications, wind circles, and other techniques so that pilots can plan their approach and landing. Teaching pilots how to do downwind landings is nothing less than teaching them not to plan, because now they have a "trick" up their sleeve to "save" them.

 

I expect that maybe some here like Gomer have thoughts on this subject that I'd like to hear. Working in the GoM, you don't get to pick where your landing point is. I'd expect that the companies would ensure that at least the landing point was crosswind capable rather than forcing pilots into a downwind scenario. Although, money does funny things to people.

[Goldy]

I am looking for an article that was published in one of the helicopter magazines.

 

The article argued that "Down Wind Landings" should be taught in flight training. It was very well written but I cannot find it in my collection of older magazines. It was published a year or 2 ago.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

Check the Vertical magazine archives...

[justfly]

...Can anyone point me in the right direction?

I don't know if this is what you're after, but from this excellent discussion:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-157790.html (scroll down to Randy_g's post)...

 

... I found this: When Downwind is the Only Way

[Whrilwind50]

Thanks for your opinions.

 

I still would like to find the article. Neither Dennis Venturi or Geoff Goodyear wrote it.

 

Any other suggestions.

[HelliBoy]

Here it is. From Rotor and Wing. Good Article.

[Whrilwind50]

Thanks, that is an excellent article but not the one I was looking for.

 

The article that I would like to find , if my memory serves me, was like the kind Dennis Venturi or Geoff Goodyear would right about subjects in one of the prominent helicopter magazines. It was not a pitch to have "Down Wind Landings" added to mandated flight training but rather a need to practice for safety sake in the event you needed to do one then it would not be your first one.

 

Yes, I know "Linc" thinks

 

Teaching how to do downwind landings? That's like teaching how to do helicopter aerobatics as a mandatory part of PPL; you're just inviting problems to occur.

 

But I still teach my daughter how to steer into a skid instead of just telling her to slow down and it will not happen, the military trains all staff to shoot but only a small percentage ever will need to.

 

Any other folks think they have seen it?

[Linc]

The military does not teach you how to absorb bullets. They prefer that bullets only move in one direction. In helicopter flight they call that direction, upwind.