R-22 Joint Ownership

[nicepants]

I'm currently about 10 hours into my training. I work with a guy who is a FW pilot but is looking into helicopters. He did a cost breakdown on what it would cost to own a R-22.

 

His theory is, get a few people who want to share ownership of the A/C and split everything, after 5 years, sell the aircraft and the net hourly costs are about 115 including all fuel and maintenance. (This is with estimates of purchase price & sale price)

 

Here is a link to the spreadsheet

 

At this point I'm thinking if I'm going to be investing $50-$60k into my training, if I can find a few other people in the same boat, it seems like we could make it work.

 

Welcoming any comments/suggestions/thoughts, especially from those who are currently in a similar partnership, or who have been.

[mechanic]

The only thing I see on the spreadsheet that looks to be not right is the anticipated 100 hrs a year! If several of you are flying, then I would think those annual totals would be higher than just 100, and you would have 2 100 hour inspections a year instead of 1, plus the annual inspection. 100 hours a year is not much for a group. I am not a pro, so I am just saying double check that.. And, you always need to add some for cushin in case the unexpected happens and they find something at the 100 hrs/annual that needs fixin..

 

I have a group of guys here that say they want a R22 but don't won't to dish the doe out. Everyone wants 150-200 hrs each. They wanna buy aircraft with the right amount of hours to run it out then sell the core. They also want to buy it cheap too! I told them that is not gonna happen. I have not seen one for sale with the hours left that is in the price range they want to spend. I have been watching for a few years now.

 

Keep us informed I am interested in what you guys get worked out.

 

Later

[nicepants]

The only thing I see on the spreadsheet that looks to be not right is the anticipated 100 hrs a year!

 

 

That's one thing I was looking at.....I think a more realistic yearly hour total would be more like 300-400, with each pilot averaging 50-75 hours. That would add a couple of inspections from what I can see, but I think the hourly cost would still be less.

 

 

I'd also appreciate input from those here who have done or are doing something similar with Fixed Wing aircraft. I'm sure it would be somewhat similar in some respects.

[Goldy]

Welcoming any comments/suggestions/thoughts, especially from those who are currently in a similar partnership, or who have been.

 

 

NP- Yes, I own half a 22...which means I own an 11. (gosh, I hope I dont have to explain that one!). Email me that spreadsheet as an excel or pdf file..>I cant read it !

I do things a bit differently, but that doesnt mean your ideas are bad. Dont forget about the depreciation advantages.

 

If 4 people are using it for training, and the goal of those 4 is to get their private and commercial ratings as quick as possible, what makes you think they wont be flying 500 hours a year or more?

 

Oh yeah, the joys of owning an R22..what happens when your blades are suddenly declared no good, and you have to spend 30K you didnt have ?

 

Goldy

Edited September 25, 2007 by Goldy

[Gerhardt]

I've been in two airplane partnerships and had almost no problems with either one. We simply paid an agreed upon fixed amount every month plus an agreed upon hourly rate. There was only one time where expenses exceeded the amount we had in the bank, and in that case we split the extra money we needed evenly.

 

1. The goal is to keep expenses down and to have enough $ in reserve to cover unexpected expenses. That also helps partners sell their shares when they want out but the others want to keep the aircraft.

 

2. With a helicopter insurance will be more expensive for low-time and student pilots.

 

3. The one and only problem we had with airplane partnerships was scheduling. One one partnership we had schedulebook-type operation. And one guy scheduled every Saturday weeks in advance and then at the last minute when he didn't want to fly would cancel the reservation.

 

With the other plane we had 5 partners and rotated weeks in which one pilot had priority scheduling the entire week. It was no problem for other pilots to fly at any time, except that the pilot whose week it was had priority scheduling over everyone else that week. In five years, and with five pilots, not once did two people want the plane at the same time.

[FlyingDodo]

If several of you are flying, then I would think those annual totals would be higher than just 100, and you would have 2 100 hour inspections a year instead of 1, plus the annual inspection.

 

 

Double-check me on this, but I'm pretty sure that the 100-hr inspection isn't required unless you're providing the aircraft for instruction (as the instructor, not the student). It's smart, but not required.

[bqmassey]

Double-check me on this, but I'm pretty sure that the 100-hr inspection isn't required unless you're providing the aircraft for instruction (as the instructor, not the student). It's smart, but not required.

 

If the student pilots receiving instruction are all owners, a 100hr inspection shouldn't be mandatory. If you decide to rent the craft to a non-owner to receive instruction in, it needs an annual or 100hr inspection in the last 100 hours.

 

That's my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest pokey]

If the student pilots receiving instruction are all owners, a 100hr inspection shouldn't be mandatory. If you decide to rent the craft to a non-owner to receive instruction in, it needs an annual or 100hr inspection in the last 100 hours.

 

That's my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm not sure how the R-22 TypeCertificate is, but the 300's states that the helicopter must be maintained according to the HMI (handbook of maintanance instrux) SO that right there makes ALL the inspections mandatory ( 25,50,100hr,,,,,,,,)

 

Remember also that helicopters have many more moving parts than an airplane, & i wouldnt skip ANY inspections that the manufacturer recomends---even IF the FAA doesnt require it. Basically for an airplane, the only difference between an annual inspection & a 100 inspection is the person signing it off--- 100 hr=A&P,,,,, annual=A&P w/ IA (inspection authorization). This is far from the case w/ helicopters tho ! Especially when you start getting up into the higher hour inspections, ie: 200,300,400,600,&1200 hours.

[PA Pilot]

Double-check me on this, but I'm pretty sure that the 100-hr inspection isn't required unless you're providing the aircraft for instruction (as the instructor, not the student). It's smart, but not required.

The R22 & R44 maintenance manuals call for a 100 hour inspection. Robinson considers them manditory, but they're really no because they're not in the limitations section of the manual. We actually do a smaller 50 hour inspection on our ships.

[apiaguy]

Sorry Pokey, I'm gonna have to disagree with you that you HAVE to do those inspections per the type certificate on the 269.

 

The type certificate says "information essential to the proper maintenance of these helicopters is contained in the Manufacturers handbook of maintenance instructions, which is provided with each helicopter"

 

That does not mean you have to follow every time inspection requirement contained in the manual and the FAA has reiterated that time and time again. Kind of goes along the lines of service bulletin compliance. If you are a part 91 operator the FAA ONLY REQUIRES an annual inspection unless flight instruction is being done for hire. (except airworthiness directive repetitive inspections and maintenance).

 

Your A&P/IA can make up their own maintenance schedule and items to inspect if they want. The manual is the key to how to do it properly.

 

If your part 135 you have to follow the manuals and bulletins exactly.

 

Of course it would always be in the interest of safety to comply with all manufacturers recommendations.

 

If it is your helicopter (you own it) you do not have to do 100hr inspections to do your own flight instruction.

[Guest pokey]

Sorry Pokey, I'm gonna have to disagree with you that you HAVE to do those inspections per the type certificate on the 269.

 

The type certificate says "information essential to the proper maintenance of these helicopters is contained in the Manufacturers handbook of maintenance instructions, which is provided with each helicopter"

 

 

Yip, i have to agree w/ ya, it IS worded that way. I wonder if the wording of that note was ever changed to that?--i cuddah sworn it was worded more clearly-----to me? that note worded in that way says basically "nothing"

 

Always learn somehing new reading here

[permison]

Nicepants, You have a PM.

[nicepants]

Reviving an old topic...

 

Oh yeah, the joys of owning an R22..what happens when your blades are suddenly declared no good, and you have to spend 30K you didnt have ?

 

Would something like that be at least partially covered by insurance?

 

 

I didn't end up buying a ship yet, partnership or otherwise. I'm interested in hearing from anyone who is currently in any sort of partnership/joint ownership of a R22 and any caveats or unique situations you ran into.

 

Also, anyone interested in a partnership in the Kansas City area, send me a PM.

[Goldy]

Reviving an old topic...

 

Would something like that be at least partially covered by insurance?

 

 

NP- Since it was my response that started this I'll reply!!

 

No, the blades were declared unairworthy thru an AD..so as an owner its all on you! If the blades were damaged due to some accident, then all or part would have been paid for thru insurance.

 

Suggestion- Own the ship thru some sort of consortium that allows you to buy and sell shares. That way people can jump out or get in as their finances dictate. In other words a corporation split into 10 shares...or 10% per share..you could own 2 shares-20% or 5 shares 50%. In any standard partnership you will have differing opinions, financial ups and downs, different goals, etc. Being able to easily buy someone out is important without having to transfer ownership, pay another sales tax, etc.

 

Goldy

[Guest pokey]

No, the blades were declared unairworthy thru an AD..so as an owner its all on you!

 

Suggestion- Own the ship thru some sort of consortium that allows you to buy and sell shares. Being able to easily buy someone out is important without having to transfer ownership, pay another sales tax, etc.

 

Goldy

 

 

The reason for AD's ? "to correct an unsafe condition" The owner of the A&P school that i attended (over 20 years ago?!) was an old timer & he remembered the good ole days when the manufacturer would step up to the plate & correct "their" unsafe condition & pay for the AD to be fixed. My how times have changed ! Altho Lycoming did make "some" good on those bad crankshafts

 

i like the idea of "shares"

[Spierman]

Shares are the way to go. Also, forming a limited liability partnership is wise to protect personal assetts.

Rotating priority scheduling weeks is also good, if you have 5 or less pilots in the partnership. We had a system that penalized partners for cancelling with less than 24 hrs notice. It helped keep the finances up and we did not have a problem with guys ghosting the schedule.

There are organizations out there where you can lease back your acft to them and get discounted rates on rental, maintenance, etc. Works out quite well if you stay away from part 141 schools and pilot mills.

[shotzy]

Shares are the way to go. Also, forming a limited liability partnership is wise to protect personal assetts.

Rotating priority scheduling weeks is also good, if you have 5 or less pilots in the partnership. We had a system that penalized partners for cancelling with less than 24 hrs notice. It helped keep the finances up and we did not have a problem with guys ghosting the schedule.

There are organizations out there where you can lease back your acft to them and get discounted rates on rental, maintenance, etc. Works out quite well if you stay away from part 141 schools and pilot mills.

 

 

Any to links to any of those organizations?