Helicopter Schools while logging Mountain Time

[Helihead]

Just wondering, were are some helicopter schools/instruction (doesn't have to be a certified school I guess) that you can log mountain time as well as get your ratings done.. list all that you can think of please.

[apiaguy]

I find the phrase "mountain time" interesting and will look forward to peoples responses.

 

Mountain time could be anytime in the mountains.... but I suppose more importantly is what the specific operator is looking for and from some recent job postings some have stated a specific altitude they constitute as "mountain time".... one recently on VR is 5000 ft. I do find this a little rediculious because what is the purpose of assigning a density altitude or pressure altitude to the requisite of mountain time? The reason I ask this is because it doesn't matter the altitude I'm operating at... as much as the aircraft and power reserve available.... if I'm flying my hughes 269A at gross weight on a standard day the hover ceiling is around 5000 ft.... so should I practice at that level to get my mountain time?? Of course not. Now if I had a 206B3 and the same conditions 5000 ft on a standard day would be like me flying my 269A at 3000ft or lower.... get the idea. The 206 at gross weight has a much higher service ceiling and hover ceiling. So I think the point of mountain time is to be pushing the aircraft at its power limit and understanding limited power operations AND to understand remote operations in mountainous locations, specifically canyon wind, high density altitudes, etc..

 

I live in Idaho and while I grew up flying "in the mountains" I don't write mountain time in my log. I don't know that in piston helicopter training there would be any difference in flying here or in say..... Tennessee in the mountains there...

 

After all that ranting... the hard question... what school.... Well I would look at schools in the mountain west. Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Montana..... I left out a few states on purpose because I don't know that those schools/states have any locations truly in the mountains. IE... Oregon has lots of mountains but the schools are mostly located below 1000msl and you'd have to fly quite away to be in the mountains so very little training would take place there.

 

I'm still having a hard time with the original questions because ANY school can teach you the techniques you will need in the mountains especially since the piston helicopters used are underpowered compared to their turbine counterparts. Canyon navigation, winds and other mountainous riggors can only be experienced by flying in them. So to train in them would possibly require a more powerfull helicopter.... R-44 or Enstrom... otherwise the aircraft would be difficult to fly year round when the summer heat hits and DA hits 8000 ft.

 

I know they train in SLC at 4500msl and Denver at 5000+... those are the only two high altitude locations I can think of off hand with heli schools. The problem comes when you want to go practice autos and they won't let you above a certain DA...

I'd like to hear from students in the Denver or SLC or anywhere above 4500 msl as to the restrictions on pilots during their training because I imagine there would be more due to the treacherous nature of operating closer to the limits of the training helicopters.

Edited September 25, 2007 by apiaguy

[Autorotator]

The best bet is for you to pull out your FAR/AIM and look up mountainous areas in the AIM. This will show you what the FAA conciders mountainous terrain which will be concidered mountain time.

 

If you don't have a FAR/AIM, I suggest you go to your local FBO or bookstore and pick one up. If you are concidering flight training, you will need one, and they are fairly inexpensive. Then you can look at an area/state that you may be interested in, then do some research and ask questions here about that particular school.

 

Just to give you an idea of where these areas are: Pretty much all areas West of Eastern Montana to SouthWest Texas is mountainous. Then another area starting in Alabama stretching through areas all the way up into Maine.

 

--CM

[Helihead]

So that shaded area in the AIM is where you can legally log mountain time?

[ben_davenport]

I fly in Oregon and we make regular trips to the coastal range in either a 300C or CBi. It's about a 15 minute flight each way, which isn't too bad. The mountains are just high enough for Density Altitude to be a factor on a hot day with a heavy load. Most of what we train in the mountains is how to read the winds, get into and out of confined areas and pinnacles. We'll write down that we did mountain training and what we did but we don't necessarily "log" mountain time.

[C of G]

So that shaded area in the AIM is where you can legally log mountain time?

 

 

You can legally log mountain time anywhere you want, because the FAA doesn't define mountain time. The people who care about mountain experience is the AMD (formerly OAS). As they see it:

 

Mountainous terrain experience is defined as: Experience in maneuvering a helicopter at

more than 7,000 feet mean sea level (MSL) altitude including numerous takeoffs and

landings in situations indicative to mountainous terrain. This terrain consists of abrupt,

rapidly rising terrain resulting in a high land mass projecting above its surroundings,

wherein complex structures in which folding, faulting, and igneous activity have taken

place. These mountainous areas produce vertical mountain winds and turbulence

associated with mountain waves, producing abrupt changes in wind direction often

resulting in upflowing or downflowing air currents.

 

In addition to this, they want it as time in type for whatever mission you are flying and recent experience as well.

 

What is the need to log mountain time? If it's for a particular company or insurance requirement, I'd go straight to the horses mouth and as them what their definition is.

 

 

AMD Ops Procedures Memorandum

Edited September 25, 2007 by C of G

[Helihead]

I ask because I saw a contract for a Firefighting pilot and it required a certain amount of mountain time. Just wondering how to legally log it and get actual experience. ??

[C of G]

Firefighting is governed, for lack of a better word, by the Department of the Interiors Aviation Management Division and they are using the definition I posted above. They are going to have harder requirements to meet than just mountain time. Check the link I posted above to get an idea. And yes, all the time is in helicopters, before you ask.

[Helihead]

Thank you

[Mixmaster]

I agree with C of G. For people who really want Mt Time (OAS) they are really concerned with +7000' and actual Mountainous terrain. Most of the flight schools in Idaho, Colorado, Utah, and northern Arizona could have you log DA above 8000' (in the summer) and from what I have heard most do. For sure if you really want to learn to fly in the mountains (weather, winds, LZ's and the such like) you would need to be in at least a R44 or a 206/500 to have enough power to actually do something, a 300 and R22 just doesn't have the grunt for flying around in the hills. There a a few schools out there that can provide that kind of training for you, we build 10-20 hours of R44 time in the program for Comm students to help give them some Mt Time. Wont name the school here as I dont think we pay advertising on this site but if you want info send me a email and I will give you info.

For the most part I think OAS jobs are hoping you have the Mt Time as Turbine/ utility work (tours in the grand canyon works sometimes) rather than as straight training time. I know that is difficult as you need the mt hrs to get the job that requires the mt hrs !!! Anyway good luck

Ben

[bellpilot]

At Leading Edge Aviation in Bend, Oregon we have DA above 5000ft almost all of the time. Our airport starts at 3456ft. They have R44/R22's and a JetRanger.

 

www.flybend.com

 

bellpilot

[BOATFIXERGUY]

A good one in Denver is Premier Helicopters if looking for R44 time, or Rocky Mountain Rotorcraft for the Enstrom family.

 

There's a big difference between "mountain" time and "high altitude" time. The Colorado Rockies are a whole 'nother animal. Not only do you high high DA, but the winds and currents are insane! When a company is asking for mountain time, that's what they are looking for. They know the difference. Getting a ton of hours at high DA operations will definitely make you a more skilled pilot at any altitude.

 

Here's their web sites:

http://www.premierheli.com/

 

http://www.rockymountainrotorcraft.com/

 

Good Luck!

 

john