Frustration is setting in.....need advice, encouragement

[PTKodiak]

Hey Guys and Gals,

 

I started my training about 3-4 weeks ago. I currently have about 22 hours in the R22. I have a newbie flight instructor that is only 19 years old and just finished her schooling.

 

We are currently working on Straight in Autorotations. I can not for the life of me get these down. We have been working on them for about a week and a half or so. I flight 4 days a week, between 1 and 1.5 hours each flight. I know what I need to be doing mentally, I just can't make it work inside the helicopter. When entering, I do okay with them, and then I catch myself staring at the dang RPM gauge the rest of the procedure. I have been having a problem at the bottom with the power recovery. I tend to stomp on the left pedal when applying power. They stress small, smooth inputs on the controls and I'm seeing that I need to be a little more aggressive with the collective and alot less agressive with the left pedal. Any help on Auto's would be great if someone has had the same experiences. What did you do to help "get" these. I feel like I'm stuck at this point and not advancing at all. I mentioned this to my instructor, and she says it is normal, but she doesn't seem to have any advice other then......"your a student, if you could do it, I wouldn't be here with you."

 

I made a HUGE HUGE HUGE mistake today. Upon start up I could of sworn that the throttle was closed. It apparently wasn't, and the RPM spiked really high during the startup. We shut it down and talked to the master mechanic. He was not happy at all. Quite pissed off. I don't blame him. It was a very bad thing, and I can assure that will NEVER happen again.

 

My instructor is a very knowledgeable pilot from what I have seen. She has lately been doing alot of cell phone texting prior to flights, and today during our flight. I didn't say anything to her, but I need too. Today when I had the throttle problem, she had just put her phone away and I think she was distracted. She said it was entirely her fault because she didn't have her hand on the throttle, I agree she should of been more focused, but I take 100 percent blame on that one. I guess what I'm saying if she wasn't concerned about the phone she may have caught the throttle issue prior to it becoming an issue.

 

The mechanic talked to her about how high it had spiked, 111%, and said he had seen worse, and to go ahead and fly it. We did, and didn't have any issues with it during the flight. Needless to say this put made me feel like crap and I had a terrible flight today.

 

The school I'm attending is a fairly small school, and all the flight instructors and personnel are friends and hang out together. My instuctor is also dating another student that is attending and almost done with school. I have thought maybe I should talk to her and see if I can schedule a couple flights with a different instuctor so see if maybe they explain things differently that might help me understand and feel more comfortable with the Autos. I'm just leary of stepping on her toes, and getting a reputation of the "problem" student.

 

I know I've rambled alot.........Just feeling really frustrated at this point and time and would like to hear what others have to say.

 

Thank!!

[BOATFIXERGUY]

As for the throttle...one word....checklists. I'm a commercial pilot with thousands of operations, and still use the checklists even though I know them by heart. My chief pilot doesn't and several times has started the helicopter with the clutch engaged (an ENSTROM 280C). This is bad.... can't stress it enough. USE THE CHECKLISTS VERBALLY AND TOUCH THE OBJECT IT DESCRIBES TO VERIFY YOU ACTUALLY DO IT.

 

As of rthe autos, try doing other things for a while and come back to them. Get your confidence back in flying the bird. It appears yours confidence is down. Once you master other tasks, you'll have a better feel overall.

 

When doing autos, your attention should be outside anyway. Glance at the gages. You should be hearing the differnece in rpm by now. The entire ship sounds different at other that normal flight rpm. Engine, rotor, tailrotor, and transmission all make unique sounds at 100%. Learn this sound.

 

Good luck and stay with it. We all struggled at some point. The bird is not easy to fly.

 

John

[Goldy]

Wow, ok then. Where do I begin ? The throttle was a mistake, dont do it again. When doing auto's its like counting numbers, 1,2,3,. I know what comes next. Whether you enter the auto or the CFI rolls off the throttle, its just 1,2,3. :Lower collective, check airspeed and set your attitude, then check RPM..since you dropped collective you will probably need a lil up collective to keep the RPM from going wild. Just hold it where it is, dont chase everything ! I find attitude is most important. I can look at the horizon and feel where 60-65 knots is..remember the attitude of the ship represents your airspeed...so again, 123, drop, check, may need a lil up collective to maintain rotor in the green. Each ship and weight (and length of the pitchlinks) changes how much rpm you have at 65 knots. If you ask me, your flying too much..take a couple days off, hit the books instead and go back fresh.

 

PS, of course you will have drastic pedal changes, at the end of the auto, you level off and if you roll throttle back on the governor kicks in, if your rotor rpm is a bit low, the governor adds power and the added rpm causes huge left pedal requirements. Now, if you time it a lil better...right at the end of the flare, your Rotor RPM is pretty high...top of the green, roll throttle back on at that point and the engine comes up to full speed with very little power required, as you start to settle and pull more collective its just a normal approach to hover......did that make any sense?

Edited October 2, 2007 by Goldy

[FlyGirl86]

First off--i think a major part of being a pilot is knowing when you made a mistake, correcting for it, remembering it and trying not to do it again-but then moving on and not beating yourself over it. as a low time student, your instructor should be on the controls with you more than she was obviously. You are only at 22 hours and i think everyone has some manuever that they have a hard time with. For autos--what really helped me was verbalizing every move i made. dont fixate on RPM by saying what you are looking at "RPM, airspeed, outside...RPM, airspeed, outside..." do the same thing, right before recovery think about what you need to do and say it out loud if you need to. It will click. One day you will do an auto and it will just be there. Thats been my experience anyways. i just try to kinda think about what i have been doing wrong and think about the corrections that need to be made as im going through it. thats seemed to help me. And like I said, don't beat youself up over it and stress over it. That will just make your next auto worse. if you need to clear your head, ask your instructor to take the controls for a second and shake it out. lol. whatever it takes.

as far as your instructor-you are the student, you are paying for your training. If you feel you need to change instructors for a bit, or even permanently, then do it. I used to go to a small school where the politics could get a little out of hand as far as that kind of thing went, but it will be worth it. Sometimes an instructor just isn't right for you and if you aren't getting something and they aren't doing anything to change their teaching methods, then you aren't going to get anywhere and you will stay stuck. You are going to end up wasting money and time, and thats something most people don't have a lot of. All instuctors have been students, and they should be understanding of your situation and realize that not all instructor-student relationships are the best for some students and a change is necessary sometimes.

Everyone gets frustrated at some point in their training. I will say again-dont beat yourself up over it.

I don't know if this helped at all, just thought I would throw my two cents in. Good luck! Keep us posted

[299215]

Hey,

 

Goldy is right, take a little break from flying for a few days and hit the books. It allows you to think about what you’ve been doing and almost create a mental picture of what needs to be done making it easier to separate the steps in your brain and execute the maneuver. During your auto count it down….. in 3, 2, 1, lower collective, aft cyclic, right peddle. Anticipate that rpm charge from slowing to that 65-knot attitude. Be ready to apply a little collective if needed. Then it’s airspeed, rpm’s, eyes outside, airspeed, rpm’s, eyes outside. The more precise you are on the 65 knot attitude the less you will be chasing your rpm’s. As you’re flaring roll the throttle back on, level the ship and pull collective. Believe me I know it’s so much harder to do than say.

 

Try another instructor. I flew with almost all of my instructors at my school and selected the one that I felt was going to benefit me the most. Unfortunately, not everybody’s brain functions the same and some instructors can explain it once and it makes sense, others can explain it a million times and I still won’t get it.

 

Take a little break from flying, a couple days, even a week and let your brain and motor skills catch up. Leaning to fly a helicopter ain’t easy or every Tom, Dick, and Harry would be doing it. Hang in there. Cheers!

[wannabe heli pilot]

I think Goldy had very good advice about taking a couple of days off! I have had a couple of times where things start to get frustrating and then, after some time to replay those flights in my head... I have more productive flights.

[kodoz]

Agree with what every1 else said about trying other instructors (doing this all along would have been a good idea), making mistakes (you're a student, she is there to teach you, and is responsible for your mistakes now), and taking a break (a few days clears the head).

 

Now for the autos...this challenged me and had me really doubting my capabilities. It took a lot for me to get over it and for a while crushed my confidence.

** It's more than just blindly moving the controls. You know you drop collective, roll off throttle and give right pedal, pull aft cyclic, then level and begin the glide. You do need to think about each of those maneuvers when you're flying it. Armchair fly the inputs as much as you can, but pick something on the wall as your horizon and envision how it will move during the entry.

** My instructor would sit there and say "auto in 3-2-1, attitude, attitude, rpm, attitude, rpm, airspeed", and it's become my auto mantra. This was to remind me that during the first few seconds of the auto your attitude is the most important thing to manage.

** Watch the horizon and understand what you are doing. When you cut the throttle and begin to descend, the horizon moves down on the windscreen (air hitting the horizontal stabilizer drops the nose and will suck RPMs). If you haven't noticed this, you're fixating on something you shouldn't be (tach for you, landing spot for me). Your aft cyclic fixes that and gives you a charge, then you arrest the charge and get airspeed with forward cyclic--so you go from a 70 knot attitude to a 60 knot, but give some of that back and pick up the 65 knot attitude.

**You have to watch the horizon, not your spot. What helped me was to go off airport and practice over fields rather than over the airport.

** Once your attitude is set, come inside and look at your RPMs--you can anticipate a charge and slightly correct with the collective before then, but once your attitude is set you can spend more time with the RPMs.

** Recover if you screwed up your entry...if not you'll just fight it to the ground. Nothing like the horn of disapproval to lift your spirits when you're having a hard time.

** Do 3 or 4 and move on. Sometimes I'd do more if they were improving, but when you blow one and try another, chances are it'll be worse (see the horn of disapproval).

 

Now a question for instructorsEver thought about teaching this backwards? You do the entry and the glide, then hand off the controls for the flare and recovery. Once that's down, you do the entry, hand off for the glide and flare. Two reasons behind this thinking: first, the flare is slower and is easy to do from a good glide, and the glide is easy from a good entry, but neither are easy if the step preceding them is off; second, the student doesn't have to worry about the next step--if they practice the glide and know they can do it, they can focus on the entry when it becomes time to learn it.

[PTKodiak]

Thanks to everyone that has posted or sent PM's.

 

Just reading what everyone has said thus far, has calmed my nerves some. A few things have clicked too. I REALLY appriciate everyones help and any advice is GREATLY appreciated. Tomorrow is another day........I will work on what I have read so far.

 

 

 

 

BOATFIXERGUY: I did the throttle twist for priming, and obviously didn't close it all the way. I can gaurantee that I will from now on!! I'm pretty anal with my preflights and my checklist. I agree with you on that one......100% , just somehow got a 99% on the checklist today. She threw some slope landings in today. I couldn't even steadily hover, after all the crap to start the day off. Its almost like her book says we MUST do this today...regardless of anything else.

 

Goldy: Yes, what you said makes sense. I have been finding myself staring at the gauge, and trying to maintain the rpm, Especially today after the start up episode. They have been stressing small, smooth contorl inputs since school started. I tend to not "chase" the RPM fast enough, I think that is because I'm scared of to sharp of an input. Also, the term "chasing" actually helped me out a few days ago, it was confusing, raise to drop rpms and lower to raise rpms. So I know tell myself to "chase" them, and it has helped on that aspect. I will try to concentrate outside and do a visual airspeed, rpm, outside routine and see if I can break my habit of staring at the gauge.

 

FlyGirl86: My instructor had me start verbally saying my inputs while we were focused on approaches. It really did help me, I saw a huge change, and still do it today. She also said that when I get to CFI (yeah right.....have to learn this crap first!! ) that the outloud verbally talking will help with instructing too. I start to verbally do it in the Auto, then by the end I'm quite as a mouse and trying to focus on the flare and recovery. UGG.....there is so much to do and so little time!!! I get very nervous at the bottom. I'm sure that is mainly cuz the like everyone is saying here, my attitude and rpm aren't in line when I get there..........EYES OUTSIDE........I will work on this.

 

299215: When rolling throttle back on, it seems like we are doing it at the same time as applying collective. It seems it would be easier to do it during the flare, then level as you said and apply collective. I am also gonna try work on the gauge check routine as you say, because I'm not doing anything like that now. As for the trying another instructor, Like I said, I don't want to step on to many toes, or become known as the complainer, whiner, whatever name that may be attached. LOL. Another thing at my school, is there isn't enough instuctors for the students they have. We still have 2 people in my ground class that aren't flying at all. I guess they have another instructor coming on board real soon, so things might be a little easier to juggle, but as of right now, pretty much everyone is booked non stop.

Edited October 2, 2007 by PTKodiak

[Hedge36]

If it makes you feel any better, I've struggled with quick stops for what seems like FOREVER. Overdumping the collective, damn near every time.

 

Autos? Piece of cake - eyes outside, listen to the RPM. You know what it should sound like. Sit in the aircraft on the ground, by yourself, for about an hour before the flight and go through all the motions with your eyes closed... go so far as to make humming noises to simulate rotor sounds. It sounds goofy, but it works.

 

I've also found that time off is good - not too much, not too little. Every other day, max two flights each day, seems to be good for me.

[Paisley]

PTKodiak,

 

Sounds like you have a confidence problem. Remember - you only have 22 hours, your just a beginner. Keep at it and practice, practice, practice. You will get it.

 

As for your throttle problem - I don't use my checklist everytime I fire up but the one thing that I always verbally say to myself before I light the fire is throttle closed.

 

As for your instructor - tell her striaght up how you feel. You need to be confident in her as well.

[heligirl03]

Seriously, arm chair flying is the best thing I ever did for my first 30hrs. Go through an entire simulated flight with your eyes closed, you can go as fast or as slowly as you need to through each maneuver to get each step in there. Seems silly but it is SO GOOD for you. Do it on your days off, but don't overdo it. The cheapest, most valuable hours you will ever get. LOL.

[Hedge36]

The cheapest, most valuable hours you will ever get. LOL.

 

You got that right!

[Goldy]

Goldy: Yes, what you said makes sense. Also, the term "chasing" actually helped me out a few days ago, it was confusing, raise to drop rpms and lower to raise rpms.

 

 

Just to confirm one thought. Hold the cyclic to maintain that 65KIAS attitude. If your Rotor Rpm's start to rise above 105% or so , GENTLY ( in a R22, that means microscopic movements !) raise collective. Likewise if you are drooping RPM and it gets down below 100% then GENTLY lower collective. Leave the cyclic alone...at 65 knots. As you get closer to the ground, I sometimes tend to start slowing down..damn ground coming up at you fast, but we all know you want and need that airspeed going into the flare, so keep it at 60-65. Where you start has a lot to do with where you are going to end up. Usually in early training, they flare a lil higher, as you progress you may find instructors teaching lower flares. In an R22 wind is everything. Anyone who hasnt flown one will think I am crazy, but even 5 or 6 knots makes a HUGE difference between landing into the wind or downwind....try really hard not to land downwind !

 

Good luck, Goldy

[Goldy]

You got that right!

 

 

I will third that emotion !

 

I even used to keep my streamlight( great collective feel ) on the left side of the seat in my truck ...just close your eyes and do a pattern. Just wish I had an extra T handle I could put in the ashtray !

[Hedge36]

I will third that emotion !

 

I even used to keep my streamlight( great collective feel ) on the left side of the seat in my truck ...just close your eyes and do a pattern. Just wish I had an extra T handle I could put in the ashtray !

 

Well, then I don't feel like quite such a dork for using the shift lever in my '05 F150 as a cyclic going down the road...

[Goldy]

Well, then I don't feel like quite such a dork for using the shift lever in my '05 F150 as a cyclic going down the road...

 

 

Shifters work better as they get older- there's more slop side to side. In a newer transmission, tight turns are a Bit** !

[joker]

All good advice above. I just want to add something which might be of help to you and others.

 

Regarding the engine overspeed on start up, your instructor must take 100% responsibility for that. OK, maybe you have learnt a good lesson too, but don't feel that it is your fault.

 

In a training environment, things are going to get broken. As a student, it is implied that you will make mistakes. Schools and owners know that. Instructors know that.

 

I have heard two or three engine overspeeds from the ramp. It sounds awful. Everyone hears it. Most of the time it is a solo student. I don't think I've heard one with an instructor on board. If the instructor is on board at the time, then that is more of a concern. Texting during the prestart procedure is not good role model behaviour from her.

 

So see this event on two levels. As a student you are expected to make mistakes. Your instructor must continuously monitor your every action. She obviously did not in this case, and I'm sure will pay more attention from now on. From your point of view, of course, learn from your mistakes, but don't beat yourself up for making them. That's why you are there.

 

Finding the balance between showing confidence in your student, and monitoring your student is difficult for some instructors. There are ways to do both at the same time.

 

Good luck..

 

Joker

[John90290]

As for the throttle...one word....checklists. I'm a commercial pilot with thousands of operations, and still use the checklists even though I know them by heart. My chief pilot doesn't and several times has started the helicopter with the clutch engaged (an ENSTROM 280C). This is bad.... can't stress it enough. USE THE CHECKLISTS VERBALLY AND TOUCH THE OBJECT IT DESCRIBES TO VERIFY YOU ACTUALLY DO IT.

 

 

I agree, I don't have thousands of hours for certain but my instructor and I jokingly call it "molesting" the helicopter in that we touch every item on the checklist at least once as we go down the list to make sure that it's in the correct position or at the correct setting. It gives you a solid feeling that you're ready to go and that let's you concentrate on flying! Hang in there!

[HelliBoy]

I agree with Joker. You need to tell the owner of the school, in a diplomatic way of course, about the cellphone thing...its wildly unprofessional. You are paying that person to be focused on you 100% of the time you are together and I bet if you told the cheif mechanic that your instructor was using their cellphone during the overspeed her job would be in serious jepordy.

 

Also, if you're having trouble with power recoveries, and I don't know if your newbie instructor will be willing to do this but most students have trouble with this at some point or annother. What I do is have them practice the throttle and pedal movements by doing zero airspeed autos at 3 or 4 thousand feet and practicing rolling on and off the throttle and applying the correct amount of pedal. After a few times doing this the problem is usually fixed and their confidence is back.

 

Your instructor should also not be letting you raise the collective after you level until the needles are married, especially in a robbie. More than one inadvertant touchdown auto and subsequent roll has resulted from this.

[Pogue]

My routine with the throttle is whenever I check full travel it's full travel open followed by full travel (into the spring) closed. As far as the auto's go, even if you don't take some time off, move onto something else for a bit. Maybe an intoduction to slopes just to change up what you're working on. Hang in there, we all have rough spots along the way.

 

Also I'd have a talk with either the instructor or the school owner about the texting - that's unsat and possibly unsafe depending on how distracted she is.

[500E]

Do not worry with time\training it will get easier

I would have a chat with the instructor, point out that, you are paying for undivided attention, & it spooks you, that they are distracted by the phone, please DON'T use the phone when you are instructing me, we are both learning.

As was admitted " it was entirely her fault because she didn't have her hand on the throttle," this is good, as there is the understanding you were let down due to inattention it now requires an action to be taken by her to stop a repeat.

If this does not get through speak to the owner and voice your worries

 

Digress

Hello GP any news on SmartSEgs

[BOATFIXERGUY]

"Regarding the engine overspeed on start up, your instructor must take 100% responsibility for that. OK, maybe you have learnt a good lesson too, but don't feel that it is your fault. JOKER"

 

Good call joker... I've owned flight schools, and the instructor is 100% responsible for the aircraft. Even If the instructor is confident with the student performing certain tasks, they should still be checked. An engine cost $35k in a piston. The lives inside are priceless. The CFI needs to pay 100% attention to teaching the student how to manage all aspects of flying. GET OFF THE PHONE!

 

When I fly on a commercial op with another pilot, we double check each other. Life is too short.

 

I had an instructor let a student pre-flight. This is ok, but the CFI is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and the lives inside and out. The student left the engine cowl open and the oil cap off. They went out an flew for 1.5 hours in the hot Colorado sky, pumping all of the oil out of the engine, destroying the cowl that was flapping in the breeze, and destroying an engine and turbo. The instructor immediately blamed the student. No one noticed the high temps on the gages and idiot lights, or the 0 oil pressure, the smell of burning oil, or the loud banging on the ship. He found himself looking for another job.

 

john

[PTKodiak]

Thanks everyone for the comments and infromation.

 

My flight was alot better today. I talked to my instructor before my flight this morning and told her that I was highly discouraged and frustrated. I told her that I had posted on here and mentioned a few things that people have recommended or whatnot about the Autos. She listened, and explained some things in greater detail that were still hazy in my head. She had mentioned last week about maybe going up and working on the glide part of the auto from a higher altitude. I asked if we could do that today, and we did. We have been working on the autos on the runways, and today we got out of the airport, was nice to be able to concentrate on doing the manuevers without the tower and other traffic on the radio. She had me hold the throttle in the detent this morning upon startup, she also started having her other students do that yesterday after our overspeed situation.

 

We flew out to a practice area and worked from about 1000-1200 feet AGL. I really focused on keeping my eyes outside today, instead of staring at the gauges. It really did help. I did a few that I barely had to move anything, we just glided down to around 500 feet AGL and then recovered. Was actually a great relief to see some sort of advancement. I now know that I CAN do them....and I'm not completely incapable of doing it. I think having the extra 300-500 feet helped relax me, really gives you time to think about it instead of the oh crap heres the ground already type feeling.

 

On the recovery, she made it click for me today when to throttle back on also. Before, I honestly really didn't understand when to do it and I was just doing it when she told me too. Today, with me more relaxed, and not feeling so rushed at the recovery, I was able to see, when the tach starts to come back down.....apply throttle, then level and up collective. We will start working on the auto's again at the airport on my next flight. She said if it makes me more comfortable, that we can do them from 8-900 feet for a little longer glide, before we start working it back down to 700 where we normally start from.

 

Today upon entry I had a little bit of a nose down attitude and a tad left, need to work on those. I think when I'm applying my right pedal, my arm is going down with my leg and giving me the left input. I went the wrong way once, but caught it right away when I was "chasing" the needle. Now that I understand more about the throttle on time, I feel the recovery being a little smoother too, but still needs work! ..........all in all.....a HUGE improvement.

 

I realize we are both on the learning curve, me as a pilot, her as a teacher. She is dealing with alot of different students and alot of different personalities. I just want to be the easygoing one........but it got the best of me. I need to communicate better.......I did today and it made me feel better.

 

Again......I greatly appreciate everyones input and comments. Trust me.....I'll keep ya posted, and be asking for advice or comments alot!!

 

Dale

Edited October 2, 2007 by PTKodiak

[Gomer Pylot]

Hi, 500E. Unfortunately, no. I've looked, but no joy on the SmartSegs. I'm needing new ones, the old ones are getting scratched, but I may have to go with standard bifocals.

[500E]

PT

Great to hear your instructor is taking note of your comments & the phone has disappeared.

Glad you are getting the feel of autos, see a little more training goes a long long way

 

 

Me neither GP have been emailing manufacturers pointing out there is a large population out there who did not even know about SmartSeg Perhaps marketing would help.

Have found 15 other people who have them hope they are doing same

Fly easy in the sun Gomer