Don't work for free.

[John90290]

Posted on this site

 

"09/30/2007 02:59 PM

 

Reliable Instructor

 

 

Description: I've never called in sick. I have a strong work ethic and positive attitude. Ready to relocate. Full resume at www.JoshStubblefield.com Willing to work for free on the weekends anywhere in Northern California. -Total 246 -R22 154 -R44 38 -300C 17 -300Cb 21 -300Cbi 5 -Bell 47 0.8 -PIC 139 -Solo 37 -X/C 79 -Night 12 -Hood 32 -Commercial Helicopter License -CFI Rating -Instrument Rating -Current Second Class Medical -Eligible for ... "

 

 

 

You are trained to fly one of the most complicated machines on the planet and just paid a crap load of money to do it, why fly for free?

 

It sets a bad precedent and will hurt me when I become a CFI and am looking for a job if the going rate becomes 0$ per hour on weekends.

 

 

I would suggest revising your ad. Work for a fair wage, you’ve earned it.

[Sparker]

Seriously!!!

 

In 15 years someone will steal that cushy turbine job you worked so hard for b/c they will work for half the wage....

 

 

 

 

Look at what you are starting!!!!!!

Nobody will hire you looking so desperate anyway.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Sparker

[fry]

And so why would someone pay $800 a month in loan payments for twenty years in order to get into a job that some are willing to do for free?

 

I'm being sarcastic but, this does go to the issue of an overabundance of low time CFIs all hitting the market at the same time. There may or may not be a "shortage" of experienced pilots due to oil and EMS demand and pending retirements but, new pilots gotta get that experience first.

 

There appears to be a bottleneck situation developing where newly minted CFIs are coming into the training market faster than those with the experience to move on are moving out of it. That would result in more job hopping, lower pay and longer periods of unemployment during the CFI apprenticeship phase of a fledgling's flying career.

 

Comments?

[BOATFIXERGUY]

And whom would let this guy fly anyway...free or not. As a long time business owner, I have found that you get what you pay for! Period!

[Paisley]

The guy is desperate. He must be having a hard time finding a job.

[Scarab]

Interesting note on apprenticeship. If you are learning a skilled trade in the construction industry. such as laborer, plumber, electrician, painter, taper, carpenter, operator, the apprenticeship requirements for most start you at half scale and move you up gradually until you are a journeyman at 6000 hours of work. Electricians and plumbers must earn a license as they go and those are also graduated by degrees. Master electrician master plumber. Flying helicopters would seem similar in the time requirements but you would have to apprentice in Heaven to get 40 hours a week on a steady basis. Full time work through apprenticeship takes 3 years or more in the trades.

 

Would anyone work as a carpenter for free to get the hours? Probably not.

 

Lets not take flying and teaching the Wal-Mart way by dropping prices based on who will do it for the very least, well ok quality could possibly suffer......but not so much?

[Galadrium]

Working as a CFI is practically working for free anyway... most flight schools bill the student for $35-$40 and give the CFI $10-$15.

[Gomer Pylot]

The root cause of the entire problem is that students want the cheapest instruction they can get. And they get it, one way or another. Cheap instruction then affects their earnings for pretty much their entire career. Short-term cheap means long-term cheap, always. Paying a few percent more, so the instructors are paid a living wage, would help everyone in the long run, especially the students, but nobody sees it that way.

[apiaguy]

I think the guy deserves a break. He is obviously putting himself out there and trying to demonstrate he is willing to be that "team" player by doing more than his job description. It is a material world and we are all material girls (or boys). . He is doing what it takes sometimes to sell yourself. Quit bitchin' bout the free work. Everyone does it. Maybe you just do it for your family and friends and maybe their friends and then maybe.....

 

If this "industry" can't support its own it is probabally because it will let anyone be a pilot. Ouch that stings. Look at the jobs that pay big $$, they require alot of screening of applicants, alot of schooling, and alot of sacrifice ($$ and time). A helicopter job only requires $$.

Edited October 2, 2007 by apiaguy

[Sparker]

I think the guy deserves a break. He is obviously putting himself out there and trying to demonstrate he is willing to be that "team" player by doing more than his job description. It is a material world and we are all material girls (or boys). . He is doing what it takes sometimes to sell yourself. Quit bitchin' bout the free work. Everyone does it. Maybe you just do it for your family and friends and maybe their friends and then maybe.....

 

If this "industry" can't support its own it is probabally because it will let anyone be a pilot. Ouch that stings. Look at the jobs that pay big $$, they require alot of screening of applicants, alot of schooling, and alot of sacrifice ($$ and time). A helicopter job only requires $$.

 

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

 

You're joking, right?

[doanut99]

working for free? pathetic. i don't care how many hours you have, if your a commercial pilot, your skills are worth cash money.

[lv@1stflite]

Licensed electrician/ flight student here, I have to agree with Scarab. I did an 8000 hour (4 yr) apprenticeship, 4 years of school in the evenings and a gruelling 6 hour test to do what I do. The apprenticeship was about 15 years ago when hazing was still practiced. If you think you are going to get me on to apply my skills on the weekend for free..... there's a bridge about 30 miles from here I'd like to sell you!!

 

I think SSH has flooded the market here, too much supply and not enough demand. So this is what you get. I'm saddened by it because, from what little I know about being a heli pilot, It's worth a lot more than the going rate.

 

I'm non-union, but I think there needs to be some solidarity here..... DON'T DO IT!!! YOU UNDERMINE THE REST OF US!!!

[zemogman]

The root cause of the entire problem is that students want the cheapest instruction they can get. And they get it, one way or another. Cheap instruction then affects their earnings for pretty much their entire career. Short-term cheap means long-term cheap, always. Paying a few percent more, so the instructors are paid a living wage, would help everyone in the long run, especially the students, but nobody sees it that way.

 

A couple of thoughts...

 

Price was definitely a factor in determining what school I picked and it I believe it should be...especially that you will spend upwards of $50K just for CPL and still be underqualified to work in the field you trained for...except for CFI positions. CFI may pay the bills for some (few) but it wouldn't scratch the surface for me. That does not mean that I was looking for "cheap"...I was looking for the best quality at a relatively affordable price.

 

That being said...I can also see how "working for free" can hurt other pilots in the industry. However, I believe this worderful "free market" (no pun intended) that we live in will figure itself out. Higher pay by regulation/union is not always the answer...I think common sense on the part of the employer will dictate whether this pilot gets the job or not.

 

As someone training to be in this field...and seriously considering being a pilot to earn a living; I am and have been closely researching the salaries and hourly requirements for the higher paying jobs. The outlook seems dismal sometimes...but it's up to all of us as individuals to not sell ourselves short.

 

I'm sure some CFI jobs will be taken by low-time / first-time / rookie CFI's...but apparently demand says "that's OK". Demand has driven the costs of training down...I wouldn't be training if I had to pay double what I'm paying now to receive a certificate that can't get me a job that will support me and my family.

 

After writing this e-mail...I'm not even sure I know where I stand on how this problem can be fixed...so if you're confused...don't worry so am I.

 

My .02 cents...(might not even be worth that)

[Gomer Pylot]

Doubling the salary for CFIs would raise the total price of the training only a little. If you're paying $200/hour, and the CFI is getting $15/hour, the CFI cost is obviusly a very minor part of the whole. Working for free lowers the cost very little, but it does the rest of the CFIs a huge disservice. Everyone paying a little more now, and making a lot more later, would benefit everyone, but nobody wants to take the long view, just like corporations are interested only in the short-term profits they can generate this quarter, not in the long-term profits over several years. And so it goes, and will continue to go.

[zemogman]

Doubling the salary for CFIs would raise the total price of the training only a little. If you're paying $200/hour, and the CFI is getting $15/hour, the CFI cost is obviusly a very minor part of the whole. Working for free lowers the cost very little, but it does the rest of the CFIs a huge disservice. Everyone paying a little more now, and making a lot more later, would benefit everyone, but nobody wants to take the long view, just like corporations are interested only in the short-term profits they can generate this quarter, not in the long-term profits over several years. And so it goes, and will continue to go.

 

I agree...in that...I would probably not mind paying $15/hr to $30/hr more for training...however would the schools actually pass that on to the CFI. They don't seem to pass much on right now. If that were the case...it would be a win / win proposition. However, I believe the schools would keep the extra as profit and share very little (if any). That is definitely part of the problem...

 

I think $30/ hr would begin to make the CFI career look much better...NOT GREAT...but much better. Reviews, increases and career CFI opportunitys would really be great...cause a lot of pilots would probably love to teach for a prolonged period of time.

 

BTW...Are there any schools that use this philosophy...and treat their CFI's like gold?

[gmsemel]

Paying a flight instructor 50 to 75 an hour is not going to add a whole lot if anything to what students are paying these days for flight training. Of course I have seen this sort of stuff for a very long time, I started back in 1974 with airplanes first and I pretty much finished with every thing I wanted with regard to certification and ratings by the summer of 1982.

 

Intstructors were not paid much then and they are paid little now. And schools never have much of a problem with finding instructors, Its just the nature of the beast I guess. On the other hand, I see more and more schools offering bonuses and other inducements to get instructors. Seems there is a shortage of them of late, my guess its just a shortage of instructors willing to work for the pay offered and put up with the other BS besides.

 

While I have a problem with guys willing to work for free, on the other hand I can't really fault a guy who is low time looking to get in the door either, is it any different than going an being a hanger rat in Canada for a year or two for dam near nothing for a shot at a collective? At least guys in the States can build time as CFI's and in some places not only make a bit of money doing it but enjoying the work as well.

 

There are other issues with this flying business, both fixed and rotor, that is for another time. Just keep at it you will get to were you want to be at some point.

[fry]

Paying a flight instructor 50 to 75 an hour is not going to add a whole lot if anything to what students are paying these days for flight training.

 

"50 to 75 an hour" what? Dollars? That's a $100k to $150k a year. Not even the rubes who fall for the Silver State pitch would pay what training would cost with those costs imbedded.

[JPDPilot]

If he works as a CFI for two years getting no pay on the weekends, when he's finished, he will have lost over seven months of pay! I couldn't afford to work for seven months with no pay!

 

JPDPilot