Jobs available for schweizer vs r-22

[OhhAndy]

My question is if I were to go through my CFII in a Schweizer instead of an r-22 how much worse are my chances of finding my first Job as a CFI? Ive read up on all of the debates between the two birds but I am more curious about life after school, and which is the best route to take given the schools have similar programs to offer?

Edited October 7, 2007 by OhhAndy

[mechanic]

Hey,

Unless you have a weight issue, you could just do most of your training in a 300 and split the 75 hrs SFAR 73 between the 22/44 working towards your Commercial?

 

Just a thought. Example, Inst ticket, split the time between a 300 and 44 to save some doe over using the 44 all the way through the inst ticket. Just be sure you get the 25 tt and 5 dual for PIC, then do another 50 in the 22 towards the other two tickets to meet 22 pic.

 

Rated to CFI in all 3 is the way to go. I am sure others have a more detailed version of this.

 

Later

 

Pay varies no matter which bird they use. It all depends on what the owner defines as a payscale.

 

 

 

edited: Did I correct this for the better, Jehh??

[N/W Gonnabee]

I am also curious about the amount of jobs available for the schweizer 300 vs r-22. Do they pay the same, and how does your training machine relate to future employers, for instance are you going to be looked at as an inferior pilot if you have 0 r-22 time?

[jehh]

Keep in mind that you need 50 hours in the R-22 in order to give flight instruction in it. Splitting 50 hours between the R-22 and R-44 doesn't accomplish that goal.

[Helihead]

So you need at least 50 IN an R22 and then 25 in a R44 since 25 of the hours in the R22 can count to the total 50 in a 44. Am I reading that right? and you need 200TT in helicopters?

 

(1) No person may act as pilot in command of a Robinson model R-22 unless that person:

 

 

(i) Has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, at least 50 flight hours of which were in the Robinson R-44. The pilot in command may credit up to 25 flight hours in the Robinson R-22 toward the 50 hour requirement in the Robinson R-44; or

 

(ii) Has had at least 10 hours dual instruction in a Robinson helicopter, at least 5 hours of which must have been accomplished in the Robinson R-44 helicopter and has received an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph ((5) of this section that the individual has been given the training required by this paragraph and is proficient to act as pilot in command of an R-44. Beginning 12 calendar months after the date of the endorsement, the individual may not act as pilot in command unless the individual has completed a flight review in a Robinson R-44 within the preceding 12 calendar months and obtained an endorsement for that flight review. The dual instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training--

 

Same goes for the 44? I think

and the flight review has to be in a R22 and a R44 each seperate?? to fly or givve instruction is that correct? some one let me know if I am wrong

[Helihead]

I really didn't answer the question about if there are more jobs for 300 pilots vs. the R22 guy and what pay differences are. I don't know ...I don't have any advice there... I guess I just had another question too.

[mechanic]

Jehh,

Thanks, I double checked my Bible, lol, and I have 61,73,5(ii) highlighted. I had R44 PIC requirements stuck on the brain.

 

CFI requirements R22= 50 hrs min R22 time only.

CFI requirements R44= 50 hrs min R44 or 25 hrs R22 and 25 hrs R44.

 

So, you need 75 hrs min of Robbie time per FAR's to CFI in both models. I am doing all my training in the Robbie models and plan on adding the 300 time to CFI in it later.

[Helo-Pilot]

Just MY opinion:

 

I personally think you would be smart to have the appropriate amount of time in each to instruct. The R-22 is here to stay, and wether you, me, or anyone else likes it, it's probably going to be an issue if you don't have the time and experience needed to instruct in it.

 

Get current and comfortable in both the 300 and the 22. Show your next employer how versitle you are and what an asset you can be to his or hers' business.

 

jehh, would'nt you agree?

[jehh]

Just MY opinion:

 

I personally think you would be smart to have the appropriate amount of time in each to instruct. The R-22 is here to stay, and wether you, me, or anyone else likes it, it's probably going to be an issue if you don't have the time and experience needed to instruct in it.

 

Get current and comfortable in both the 300 and the 22. Show your next employer how versitle you are and what an asset you can be to his or hers' business.

 

jehh, would'nt you agree?

 

Yep, 100%... and be sure to add R-44 time to that mix if possible...

[apiaguy]

now my 2 cents

 

Everyone talks about the need to get all that R22 and R44 experience and yeah that would be great if you're going to teach at a robinson school.

 

The original question was how much worse are his chances at employment if he gets 300 time instead. Well, no one can really answer that. Maybe the chances are generally less as fewer schools use the 300 but who cares. I believe if you only have 300 time you can and will get a job teaching in a 300.

After 14 years of helicopter flying and taking my demo ride and first 15 hours in a robinson before switching to the 300, I can honestly look back and say I wouldn't train in the robinson. I absolutly wouldn't teach in a robinson. I don't care what stats you can show me. Yes, I am a Hughes/Schweizer fan. If your path is career helicopter pilot. I don't think it matters what aircraft you learn in as you will eventually get a CFI job and in a year or two will graduate on to something else. I disagree that the R22 is here to stay. I believe it only a matter of years before it will be phased out.

Doing all the r22/44 time and 300 time is really a bunch of extra goo. Sure you are more marketable but why not just stick to one and become as good of a pilot as you can in that first 150-200 hours so you can teach someone.... I can't imagine taking lessons from some newbie that has very few hours in the ship I'm flying with him... sure he can teach the maneuvers... but what if something goes wrong and it may.

Splitting up all your time like some have proposed so you can potentially get a job as a CFI in one of those could prove anti-productive. I think there is more to say for dedication to a particular ship at this early stage of training.

[Sparker]

I disagree that the R22 is here to stay.

 

 

Frank Robinson even says he didn't intend for the R22 to be a trainer and he wants the R44 to be the primary Robinson trainer.

 

----------------

Now playing: Foo Fighters - Long Road to Ruin

[mechanic]

If I were to go through my CFII in a Schweizer instead of an r-22 how much worse are my chances of finding my first Job as a CFI?

 

I think you know the answer. You are just trying to sell yourself on the idea? With less schools to choose from, you will have to find something else to build time or do other work until a 300 slot opens up. Keep watching the VR and JH's job boards, you will get an idea of the situation.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I'm gonna chime in with APIAGUY. I would concentrate 100 % on being the best pilot of your primary aircraft. After you get your 200 hours, and you are proficient, then move on to another bird if you like. I have run flight schools since 1999, and from experience on CFI's coming for jobs, the 50 hours here, 50 hours there, really hurt them....can't think of one we hired.

 

The helicopter is a different animal in each brand, model, and class. Be the best you can be. When you need your skill, you'll have it! Later in your career you'll thank yourself for it!

 

john

[helonorth]

As a former instructor (that avoided Robinsons) I find it amazing you need 75 hours in type(s), if

mechanics numbers are correct, to instruct in 22's and 44's. I could have legally instructed in a

S-76, or anything not requiring a type rating, with 5 hours. I'm not answering the question, but if

if you want a CFI job, you better lean toward Robinsons. It sounds like you then need 250 hours plus

the factory course to get insured. It's nuts! You gotta want it bad.

[mechanic]

It sounds like you then need 250 hours plus the factory course to get insured. It's nuts!

 

61 SFAR 73 is 200TT, see below, to instruct. Pathfinder (Robinson Insurance) requires 300 TT min to instruct. I don't know what min's the other Insurance companies require??

 

As a former instructor (that avoided Robinsons) I find it amazing you need 75 hours in type(s), if

mechanics numbers are correct, to instruct in 22's and 44's.

 

61 SFAR 73

(5) No certificated flight instructor may provide instruction or conduct a flight review in a Robinson R–22 or R–44 unless that instructor—

 

(i) Completes the awareness training in paragraph 2(a) of this SFAR.

 

(ii) For the Robinson R–22, has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, at least 50 flight hours of which were in the Robinson R–22, or for the Robinson R–44, has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, 50 flight hours of which were in Robinson helicopters. Up to 25 flight hours of Robinson R–22 flight time may be credited toward the 50 hour requirement.

 

(iii) Has completed flight training in a Robinson R–22, R–44, or both, on the following abnormal and emergency procedures—

 

(A) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures;

 

( Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor;

 

© Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery; and

 

(D) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.

 

(iv) Has been authorized by endorsement from an FAA aviation safety inspector or authorized designated examiner that the instructor has completed the appropriate training, meets the experience requirements and has satisfactorily demonstrated an ability to provide instruction on the general subject areas of paragraph 2(a)(3) of this SFAR, and the flight training identified in paragraph 2( (5)(iii) of this SFAR.

[N/W Gonnabee]

now my 2 cents

 

Everyone talks about the need to get all that R22 and R44 experience and yeah that would be great if you're going to teach at a robinson school.

 

The original question was how much worse are his chances at employment if he gets 300 time instead. Well, no one can really answer that. Maybe the chances are generally less as fewer schools use the 300 but who cares. I believe if you only have 300 time you can and will get a job teaching in a 300.

After 14 years of helicopter flying and taking my demo ride and first 15 hours in a robinson before switching to the 300, I can honestly look back and say I wouldn't train in the robinson. I absolutly wouldn't teach in a robinson. I don't care what stats you can show me. Yes, I am a Hughes/Schweizer fan. If your path is career helicopter pilot. I don't think it matters what aircraft you learn in as you will eventually get a CFI job and in a year or two will graduate on to something else. I disagree that the R22 is here to stay. I believe it only a matter of years before it will be phased out.

Doing all the r22/44 time and 300 time is really a bunch of extra goo. Sure you are more marketable but why not just stick to one and become as good of a pilot as you can in that first 150-200 hours so you can teach someone.... I can't imagine taking lessons from some newbie that has very few hours in the ship I'm flying with him... sure he can teach the maneuvers... but what if something goes wrong and it may.

Splitting up all your time like some have proposed so you can potentially get a job as a CFI in one of those could prove anti-productive. I think there is more to say for dedication to a particular ship at this early stage of training.

I think what your saying makes alot of sense, My thoughts are that sure there are about 3x the robinson schools but I would think that also relates to the fact there are 3x the newbie pilots looking for a CFI job in a r-22. So in the end its probably a wash. Does a 300 CFI make the same wages as an r-22 ?

[Helihead]

now my 2 cents

 

Everyone talks about the need to get all that R22 and R44 experience and yeah that would be great if you're going to teach at a robinson school.

 

The original question was how much worse are his chances at employment if he gets 300 time instead. Well, no one can really answer that. Maybe the chances are generally less as fewer schools use the 300 but who cares. I believe if you only have 300 time you can and will get a job teaching in a 300.

After 14 years of helicopter flying and taking my demo ride and first 15 hours in a robinson before switching to the 300, I can honestly look back and say I wouldn't train in the robinson. I absolutly wouldn't teach in a robinson. I don't care what stats you can show me. Yes, I am a Hughes/Schweizer fan. If your path is career helicopter pilot. I don't think it matters what aircraft you learn in as you will eventually get a CFI job and in a year or two will graduate on to something else. I disagree that the R22 is here to stay. I believe it only a matter of years before it will be phased out.

Doing all the r22/44 time and 300 time is really a bunch of extra goo. Sure you are more marketable but why not just stick to one and become as good of a pilot as you can in that first 150-200 hours so you can teach someone.... I can't imagine taking lessons from some newbie that has very few hours in the ship I'm flying with him... sure he can teach the maneuvers... but what if something goes wrong and it may.

Splitting up all your time like some have proposed so you can potentially get a job as a CFI in one of those could prove anti-productive. I think there is more to say for dedication to a particular ship at this early stage of training.

 

indeed

Edited June 15, 2008 by Helihead

[preacher]

Well I cannot answer the OP question, as I have a few of my own and am probably at a similar point.

 

But, the question did bring up a great discussion and I see that some people have strong opinions in certain areas.

 

It would seem to me that the versatility gained by training in multiple aircraft could be very beneficial. Each one is 'a different animal' but, same species.

 

Also, you will have to move on to 'something else' later and your adaptability will help a lot then.

 

I do not know, I am not a pilot [puts on flameproof suit]. I am trying to relate to this through similar experiences in my life.

 

Like OhhAndy I am just trying to make an educated choice as to where I will spend my time and money to train. Like I said, people have some strong opinions. I just have to filter some of that I think.

 

Let me ask it this way: Like drivers education class is in a Bonneville and a Crown Vic, I am learning to drive any car. In a 300 and an R22 wouldn't I be learning to fly any helicopter?

[jehh]

Let me ask it this way: Like drivers education class is in a Bonneville and a Crown Vic, I am learning to drive any car. In a 300 and an R22 wouldn't I be learning to fly any helicopter?

 

It isn't a matter of learning to drive any car, because once you have your drivers license, the insurance companies don't much care what you drive.

 

In helicopters, the insurance companies DO care what you trained in, as to what they will allow you to teach in.

 

There is nothing wrong with getting only Schweizer time, so long as you understand your options will be more limited.

[jehh]

As a former instructor (that avoided Robinsons) I find it amazing you need 75 hours in type(s), if

mechanics numbers are correct, to instruct in 22's and 44's. I could have legally instructed in a

S-76, or anything not requiring a type rating, with 5 hours. I'm not answering the question, but if

if you want a CFI job, you better lean toward Robinsons. It sounds like you then need 250 hours plus

the factory course to get insured. It's nuts! You gotta want it bad.

 

Legal and safe are often two different things... You would not have been qualified to teach in a S-76 with 5 hours in it either, from a practical and safety point of view. It takes time to get to know a helicopter, even more to know it well enough to teach in it.

 

I don't allow CFIs to teach in the Schweizer with 5 hours of time either... besides, insurance won't generally allow that anyway, so it is a moot point.

 

To teach in the R-22, you need 200 total helicopter hours, 50 of which must be in the R-22. Those are reasonable requirements.

[jehh]

now my 2 cents

 

Everyone talks about the need to get all that R22 and R44 experience and yeah that would be great if you're going to teach at a robinson school.

 

Of which perhaps 90% of the helicopter flight schools in the United States are...

 

The original question was how much worse are his chances at employment if he gets 300 time instead. Well, no one can really answer that.

 

Sure you can... Much worse, because there are just not that many places to teach in a Schweizer anymore.

 

We used to be Schweizer only, but the march of time changed that, we added our first R-22 and R-44 to the fleet this year.

 

Maybe the chances are generally less as fewer schools use the 300 but who cares. I believe if you only have 300 time you can and will get a job teaching in a 300.

 

They are out there, however you can count the number of decent 300 schools on one hand these days...

 

After 14 years of helicopter flying and taking my demo ride and first 15 hours in a robinson before switching to the 300, I can honestly look back and say I wouldn't train in the robinson.

 

14 years is a long time ago in the helicopter training world... There were lots of Schweizers around back then, not anymore...

 

Yes, I am a Hughes/Schweizer fan.

 

As am I... However the business argument for the R-22 wins out in the end.

 

I disagree that the R22 is here to stay. I believe it only a matter of years before it will be phased out.

 

And replaced with what? The R-44? Too expensive and too restrictive on the insurance requirements to teach in one.

 

In any case, the market would seem to have disagreed with you. The R-22 costs a lot less to own and operate than the Schweizer 300, and at the end of the day a flight school is a business that has to make money.

 

I can't imagine taking lessons from some newbie that has very few hours in the ship I'm flying with him... sure he can teach the maneuvers... but what if something goes wrong and it may.

 

Of course you can't, you learned 14 years ago when the demographics of CFIs were different.

 

Splitting up all your time like some have proposed so you can potentially get a job as a CFI in one of those could prove anti-productive. I think there is more to say for dedication to a particular ship at this early stage of training.

 

There is also something to be said for learning that not all helicopters fly the same, and to treat each helicopter as unique. Moving from a Robinson to a Schweizer product will do that.

[apiaguy]

gee, thanks for picking every phrase of my post apart.

 

]I disagree that schweizers are fewer today than 15 years ago...

The r22 only wins if cheap is the final verdict. I do believe people will pay the additional to train in a better aircraft especially when that additional is not that great....say $25/hr more.

 

Also disagree cfi demographics were different 15 years ago... so you're telling me someone today has to settle for a complete newbie with 25-50 hours in type as their CFI?

 

Yes the r22 is still going strong and I expect it to for awhile.... how long? I don't know but I do believe robinson will discontinue it in less than 10 years... maybe shortly after the r66 comes out.

[preacher]

Ahh, Insurance. That makes a lot of since about how and why.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

The "there's more R22's out there" just doesn't fly... Here's the numbers the FAA has on flying machines:

 

Robinson R22: 1350

Enstrom 28/280: 455

Schweitzer: 1297

 

While there are a few more R22's than hughes/Schweitzer, on 53 additional. Not anything to jump up and down about. Granted, there are more R22's produced, many are not flying. The numbers don't lie.

 

apiaguy is right. Get the initial 200 hours in the same aircraft if your goal is to teach in it. You will be a better CFI to your students.

 

john

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Another thing....I hate these R22 is better than brand X discussions and visa-versa...

 

It really depends on where you are going to get your training also. If you live/train in Denver, you'd better not pick an R22. Go with the Enstrom, R44, or Schweitzer! Our friends at Premier Helicopters had two R22's and they are both sitting in junk piles. DA of 9000+ on a daily basis kills those machines. Every single school that has tried them in Colorado has had the same fate. They have slowly changed over to the R44 which is much better in Colorado. If you're at sea level, no problem. You have lots of choices. Fly what you're comfortable with.

 

The R crowd is proud of their craft. Just as is all ot the other crowds with their respective birds. Just don't jump on the band-wagon.

 

john