How to chose a school for my goals

[deanathpc]

O.K. Let me pick some brains... As some have seen I did in fact do a demo flight this past saturday and am hooked...

 

Now... The more research I do the more schools I'm finding. Here is my dilema though...

 

I have 4 difference a/c I could train in. Some I can get my instrument rating in and some I can not due to the fact that they are not equipped for it (one is looking to do so in the near future).

 

My question(s) is should I choose a school who can do all in one shot or maybe split everything up between the difference schools for the experience in the 4 different a/c? My goal is private to commercial to instrument rating to CFI.

 

Some are cheaper than others but may be a further drive which negates that cheaper rate etc. etc. etc. What is the best way to make the decision here? Or rather what would be the best decision to make for my future career? Or maybe I'm just making this harder than it really is and it comes down to preference? I haven't really seen anything on this subject which is why I am reaching out to all of you folks.

 

My options are:

 

Enstrom 280F (did my demo flight in this one - not instrument rating capable)

Hughes 269C

Schweizer 300CB

Bell 47G (I love M.A.S.H.)

 

If I'm going to make this investment I wish to do it wisely as I'm sure everyone does. I've talked to 3 out the 4 instructors, met one face to face so far and everyone is very down to earth and is more than willing to help out.

 

Any help is appreciated! Just trying to make an informed and educated decision. The education from this site alone has gotten me this far and I just want more now.. lol

[Galadrium]

I'd start out and get your private license in the Enstrom. The margin of safety is huge and that is something you will want when you go on your solo cross country flights. You can royally mess up an autorotation and walk away. Very forgiving flight characteristics and a ton of tail rotor authority. In fact, I've been flying Enstroms for a while now and have NEVER run out of TR authority, something I cant say about flying Schweizers, or even the Bell 47.

 

The Enstrom also has plenty of power since it is turbochraged, way less prone to settling with power, and you can get out of some very tight places, even on high density altitude days.

 

I would do some training in the Schweizers because a lot of places use them and it will be good to get some experience with them... although after you fly the Enstrom you probably wont be too crazy about flying them and you'll realize its a huge step down.

[clay]

I totally agree with Galadrium. I know you said you did you demo in the enstrom, have you flown the schweizer, and robinson? if you have, I think you will see the difference in the 3. Do whichever you enjoy and feel the most comfortable with.

[deanathpc]

I'd start out and get your private license in the Enstrom. The margin of safety is huge and that is something you will want when you go on your solo cross country flights. You can royally mess up an autorotation and walk away. Very forgiving flight characteristics and a ton of tail rotor authority. In fact, I've been flying Enstroms for a while now and have NEVER run out of TR authority, something I cant say about flying Schweizers, or even the Bell 47.

 

The Enstrom also has plenty of power since it is turbochraged, way less prone to settling with power, and you can get out of some very tight places, even on high density altitude days.

 

I would do some training in the Schweizers because a lot of places use them and it will be good to get some experience with them... although after you fly the Enstrom you probably wont be too crazy about flying them and you'll realize its a huge step down.

 

That is very helpful! There are 2 -3 around my area that does the Schweizers which was my main reason for asking what I did. That and if I read Schweizers web site correctly then their manufacturing plant is right here in NY state only an hour drive from me..

 

I was impressed with the Enstrom but I have nothing to compare it to right now. I was toying with demo rides with the other ones for not only that experience but also the instructors and how they were. My schedule and theirs didn't work out well previously and one of them will be reading this so I hope he understands I will get to him too..

 

So is it safe to say that you can just jump in a different type of helicopter and fly it? You should get some instruction on it first? And if so how many hours would be a good amount or does that depend on me, the a/c and other things?

 

Thanks for your reply!

[deanathpc]

I totally agree with Galadrium. I know you said you did you demo in the enstrom, have you flown the schweizer, and robinson? if you have, I think you will see the difference in the 3. Do whichever you enjoy and feel the most comfortable with.

 

The only robinson that I could get to is about 5 - 6 hours drive time and that is with SSH. Schweizer seems to be the common in my area. I just teased myself doing the demo so early as I won't have enough saved up till probably middle of next summer. I'm avoiding the loans if at all possible and doing the pay as you go just to make things easier in the long run so I have time to make a solid and educated decision.

 

Thanks very much for your reply!

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I'd start out and get your private license in the Enstrom. The margin of safety is huge and that is something you will want when you go on your solo cross country flights. You can royally mess up an autorotation and walk away. Very forgiving flight characteristics and a ton of tail rotor authority. In fact, I've been flying Enstroms for a while now and have NEVER run out of TR authority, something I cant say about flying Schweizers, or even the Bell 47.

 

The Enstrom also has plenty of power since it is turbochraged, way less prone to settling with power, and you can get out of some very tight places, even on high density altitude days.

 

I would do some training in the Schweizers because a lot of places use them and it will be good to get some experience with them... although after you fly the Enstrom you probably wont be too crazy about flying them and you'll realize its a huge step down.

 

Totally agree with Galadrium. The Enstrom is superior to the S and R models, but it's a larger ship. It cost more to fly. I have flown them for years doing rides, and tons of high altitude stuff when our R's and S's were on the ground. The enstrom will never let you down. You can totally screw up and be way behind in it, and it will still save your life! It's as strong as an ox too! I've seen hard landings that would have destroyed robinsons ad schweizers, without a scratch on the enstrom!

 

As far as career goes though, with over 6,000 robinsons in the market and very few enstroms and schweizers, you might get the robinson time on your commercial/cfi. Just depends on what your career goals are. If you look at the ads for cfi's and other tour pilots, the robinson is king....just because of shere numbers.

[deanathpc]

Totally agree with Galadrium. The Enstrom is superior to the S and R models, but it's a larger ship. It cost more to fly. I have flown them for years doing rides, and tons of high altitude stuff when our R's and S's were on the ground. The enstrom will never let you down. You can totally screw up and be way behind in it, and it will still save your life! It's as strong as an ox too! I've seen hard landings that would have destroyed robinsons ad schweizers, without a scratch on the enstrom!

 

As far as career goes though, with over 6,000 robinsons in the market and very few enstroms and schweizers, you might get the robinson time on your commercial/cfi. Just depends on what your career goals are. If you look at the ads for cfi's and other tour pilots, the robinson is king....just because of shere numbers.

 

Thanks for your reply!

 

My problem with the Robinson is my height of 6'4" and weight of 220 lbs. is going to make that time hard from everything I've read. If not impossible. Not only that but the travel time one way is a killer! Guess I'll have to do some more research or keep researching then and see what I come up with.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Thanks for your reply!

 

My problem with the Robinson is my height of 6'4" and weight of 220 lbs. is going to make that time hard from everything I've read. If not impossible. Not only that but the travel time one way is a killer! Guess I'll have to do some more research or keep researching then and see what I come up with.

 

You'll have no problem in the Enstrom. It's huge inside!

 

I don't have a ton of R44 time, but I believe you could fit in it easily. The seat weight is 300#, so you're ok there. The R22, no way.

[deanathpc]

You'll have no problem in the Enstrom. It's huge inside!

 

I don't have a ton of R44 time, but I believe you could fit in it easily. The seat weight is 300#, so you're ok there. The R22, no way.

 

Ahhh that's what I thought. But I hear the R44 isn't bad to fly either. It just won't be easy for me to get those hours. Or maybe more correctly won't come cheap with the travel time and gas etc. Unless I win the lottery!!!!! lol

[clay]

6'4" and 220 lbs....... NOT A PROBLEM in the enstrom. i did all my training in A models... very reliable helicopter though. my instructor is my same size. were at sea level with 90 degree heat and high moisture all the time. great flying machine

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Ahhh that's what I thought. But I hear the R44 isn't bad to fly either. It just won't be easy for me to get those hours. Or maybe more correctly won't come cheap with the travel time and gas etc. Unless I win the lottery!!!!! lol

 

The R44 Raven II is a very nice bird. It is about $450 an hour. Enstrom's seem to run around $400. The R44 has a better profit margin. Less maintenance and better time life components. Another reason you'll see more of them at flight schools and the tour market.

 

They (Robinson) also have a great marketing campaign. Enstrom's marketing is virtually non-exhistant!

 

Good luck on the lotto. Still trying to win it myself! If you win it, by and AS350B3 or EC130 and do it right from the beginning!

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Ahhh that's what I thought. But I hear the R44 isn't bad to fly either. It just won't be easy for me to get those hours. Or maybe more correctly won't come cheap with the travel time and gas etc. Unless I win the lottery!!!!! lol

 

Enstrom is the best high, hot, humid piston on the planet! We did rides all summer long at max gross weight at 100 deg + (3 people on board), over 9,000 DA, and always hat plenty of MP left! Never got hot, and always performed well.

[clay]

The R44 Raven II is a very nice bird. It is about $450 an hour. Enstrom's seem to run around $400.

 

 

WOW... i pay $250/ hr for the enstrom i fly

[Galadrium]

That is very helpful! There are 2 -3 around my area that does the Schweizers which was my main reason for asking what I did. That and if I read Schweizers web site correctly then their manufacturing plant is right here in NY state only an hour drive from me..

 

I was impressed with the Enstrom but I have nothing to compare it to right now. I was toying with demo rides with the other ones for not only that experience but also the instructors and how they were. My schedule and theirs didn't work out well previously and one of them will be reading this so I hope he understands I will get to him too..

 

So is it safe to say that you can just jump in a different type of helicopter and fly it? You should get some instruction on it first? And if so how many hours would be a good amount or does that depend on me, the a/c and other things?

 

Thanks for your reply!

 

Before you fly a helicopter you aren't familiar with you should always get some instruction, and most places that you would rent from require it anyway. I would get your private license in the Enstrom, then get 40-50 in the Schweizer just for the experience. Flying different aircraft will make you a better pilot. About 98% of my flying is Enstrom now, but I do like to fly a Schweizer every once in a while.

 

The Bell 47 is a great aircraft, but it is probably pretty expensive. We rent our Enstrom for $255 per hour, and $285for dual instruction. Schweizer time can be found for about the same.

[gotheli]

deanathpc and all

 

I am new to the site and this is my first post.

 

deanathpc, I have been looking into SSH in new york. It is about 1 1/2 hours south of me. I live in Roxbury Ny in the Catskill mountains. I have not seen any reference to SSH anywhere on this site and I am starting to wonder why. I have only been in contact with them by phone and am still trying to find other flight schools within a resonable distance to me. What have you found in your/my area except silver state? I have also seen other posts reference SSH and not to go with them. Do you or any body else know why and should I look elsewhere?

 

If anybody has any other info on any flight schools new the Albany, Binghamton, Stewart Airport area please let me know. To make it easier on the reply for the SSH question reply to mulderbri@hotmail.com or keep the thread going here.

 

Thanks to all.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

WOW... i pay $250/ hr for the enstrom i fly

 

you're a lucky man!

[BOATFIXERGUY]

We rent our Enstrom for $255 per hour, and $285for dual instruction. Schweizer time can be found for about the same.

 

What version of enstrom are you renting? $255/$285 is pre-9/11 days for most flying the turbocharged versions. DOC is $205, then add insurance ($37 hour @ 400 hours a year), fuel (13GPH $55 for students on average, or 9gph $36 for commercial pilots), pilot ($30 an hour), hangar, advertising, training, etc....

 

I would love to rent the 280 for less, but the lights have to stay on.

 

I know enstrom list doc at $125.... ya right. Kinda like Bell advertising 407 doc at $390 hour.

 

john

[deanathpc]

Before you fly a helicopter you aren't familiar with you should always get some instruction, and most places that you would rent from require it anyway. I would get your private license in the Enstrom, then get 40-50 in the Schweizer just for the experience. Flying different aircraft will make you a better pilot. About 98% of my flying is Enstrom now, but I do like to fly a Schweizer every once in a while.

 

The Bell 47 is a great aircraft, but it is probably pretty expensive. We rent our Enstrom for $255 per hour, and $285for dual instruction. Schweizer time can be found for about the same.

 

I was told the Bell 47 would be 12 - 16K for a Private. He never said what it costs per hour though.

 

The Schweizer has a huge range here. $275 dual / $225 single and $285 dual / $265 single.

 

The Enstrom: is $340 dual / $300 single. I can do block time too.

 

The Hughes 269C is $350 dual / $300 single I believe.

 

So I guess these prices are not that bad. But my drive time and gas used to get there and back will not be cheap. I'm glad I've done the research though since I found 2 closer to me. I so love the internet.

 

So is the 269C and 300C the same a/c? I was hearing that they are. Will training on one be good for the other? Or do you think I'd have to do time in each model? I still have to catch up to the other instructors and pick their brains for some of this info.

[Galadrium]

What version of enstrom are you renting? $255/$285 is pre-9/11 days for most flying the turbocharged versions. DOC is $205, then add insurance ($37 hour @ 400 hours a year), fuel (13GPH $55 for students on average, or 9gph $36 for commercial pilots), pilot ($30 an hour), hangar, advertising, training, etc....

 

I would love to rent the 280 for less, but the lights have to stay on.

 

I know enstrom list doc at $125.... ya right. Kinda like Bell advertising 407 doc at $390 hour.

 

john

 

 

I own a flight school that uses an F-28C. $255 per hour pays the bills for us. Although we don't make a killing on flight instruction. Rides are where the money is...

Edited October 9, 2007 by Galadrium

[Goldy]

Thanks for your reply!

My problem with the Robinson is my height of 6'4" and weight of 220 lbs. is going to make that time hard from everything I've read. If not impossible.

 

Hold on a second here ! While the R22 may not be your closest ( or best) choice, it will be your cheapest usually. And 6-4, 220 pounds is easy in 22. The seat limit is 240 and I fly mine everyday at 240 with a passenger of 160, just gotta stay a little lighter on the fuel to stay under max limits. (About 6-5 inches with shoes on!)

So while you may not learn to fly in a 22, dont think you can't fly one. All of the birds you mentioned are very similar in feel, with the 47 and the 44 the only ones with hydraulic controls. But you cant just jump in and fly each model, you need some specific instruction on the limits and quirks of each model, and insurance will require a formal sign off usually. As far as the FAA is concerned you can fly them all, but the reality is the insurance company runs the world, not the FAA.

 

Goldy

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I own a flight school that uses an F-28C. $255 per hour pays the bills for us. Although we don't make a killing on flight instruction. Rides are where the money is...

 

Rides are all we do now.... we make $900 an hour in the 280C doing rides (18 hops per hour). An it's easy on the bird! No students bending it up. The only thing that sucks about rides is that unless you're at a location that has a constant draw of people, you're traveling with the crew and birds to them. Put 36,000 miles on my truck dragging the helicopter around last summer.

 

Shouldn't say all we do, aerial photography also. That can net as much as $1200 hour. We did some flying for Discovery HD last year for the Planet Earth show. Our footage didn't make it, as they shot several years worth of footage for the 9 epsiodes. Still a good time and some fun with all of the logistics.

[deanathpc]

Hold on a second here ! While the R22 may not be your closest ( or best) choice, it will be your cheapest usually. And 6-4, 220 pounds is easy in 22. The seat limit is 240 and I fly mine everyday at 240 with a passenger of 160, just gotta stay a little lighter on the fuel to stay under max limits. (About 6-5 inches with shoes on!)

So while you may not learn to fly in a 22, dont think you can't fly one. All of the birds you mentioned are very similar in feel, with the 47 and the 44 the only ones with hydraulic controls. But you cant just jump in and fly each model, you need some specific instruction on the limits and quirks of each model, and insurance will require a formal sign off usually. As far as the FAA is concerned you can fly them all, but the reality is the insurance company runs the world, not the FAA.

 

Goldy

 

See mis information again. Well I guess it was max limits are too close with my height and weight. Maybe that's what it was. Sorry...

 

Yeah being a Paramedic I'm familiar with how inurance companies run this world now a days...

[Goldy]

Max weight is 1370 in a R22BII. So my ship weighs about 875..gives you 400 in the cockpit and 90 pounds of fuel. Or in your case, 220 pounds plus a CFI of 160 you can load up 19 gallons of fuel. Which is plenty for a 1.2 or 1.3 hour flight.

 

Didnt realize you were a paramagic, I would have added additional harassment into my reply !!

[deanathpc]

Max weight is 1370 in a R22BII. So my ship weighs about 875..gives you 400 in the cockpit and 90 pounds of fuel. Or in your case, 220 pounds plus a CFI of 160 you can load up 19 gallons of fuel. Which is plenty for a 1.2 or 1.3 hour flight.

 

Didnt realize you were a paramagic, I would have added additional harassment into my reply !!

 

Cool! The way people were making it sound I would be very limited which I guess that would be the case regardless but maybe not as bad as I thought.

 

I have been a paramagic for 4 years now. Been in EMS for over 15. Hence my time to move on and look for a career change. So please harass away! I might harass back though!

[Galadrium]

I was told the Bell 47 would be 12 - 16K for a Private. He never said what it costs per hour though.

 

The Schweizer has a huge range here. $275 dual / $225 single and $285 dual / $265 single.

 

The Enstrom: is $340 dual / $300 single. I can do block time too.

 

The Hughes 269C is $350 dual / $300 single I believe.

 

So I guess these prices are not that bad. But my drive time and gas used to get there and back will not be cheap. I'm glad I've done the research though since I found 2 closer to me. I so love the internet.

 

So is the 269C and 300C the same a/c? I was hearing that they are. Will training on one be good for the other? Or do you think I'd have to do time in each model? I still have to catch up to the other instructors and pick their brains for some of this info.

 

The 269C and 300C are the same aircraft. Schweizer bought the rights to manufature the Hughes 269 helicopters in the mid 1980s. Schweizers are good trainers, I learned how to fly in the 269 series helicopters. Although it looks like you can fly the Enstrom for about the same amount of money, and it will certainly be worth the extra cash considering you will be getting a far more forgiving aircraft.

 

Like I said before, flying different aircraft will make you a better pilot, once you get your private license I would suggest getting hours in a variety of different helicopters.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Galadrium