Inadvertant IMC

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Well, there was a thread down below about emergencies. In that thread IIMC came up. I wanted to start a topic on this as this is a real problem and big cause of accidents. CRM and decision making are topics that I think should more talked about not only in flight training but also industry wide. I make an effort each week to read the NTSB web site. The accident reports there are a wealth of infomation for us to learn from. I would like anyone who has or knows of someone who has, talk about being in IIMC. We can all learn from these situations. Most offten it's not that we can't stay upright but that we don't have the gound clearance when this happens. I personaly have been in this and a friend of mine was killed doing this. read on............

 

 

Training in the San Francisco bay area is without a doubt, fun. It also has it's weather days like any other coastal city. I was just wrapping up my instrument rating many years back now, but remember this day like it was just last week. Driving to the Oakland airport I checked the weather. Sure enough the marine layer was in and the tops of the hills were socked in. Arriving at the airport I met up with my instructor. My checkride just around the corner, we wanted to do a "mock" checkride flight. I told him I checked the weather on the way in and we wouldn't be able to get over to Concord airport. I know Concord would be clear. Just had to cross the hills on the way there. Knowing the weather pattern usualy meant that the marine layer would be clearing up soon. I told my CFI we could head out and if the hills were still covered we could just come back to Oakland and work on some EP's.

 

He agreed and we set off. I was at the controls and arrived at the hills and sure enough, socked in still! Told my CFI I was turning around and before I knew it I was in the clouds. My CFI had taken the controls and started a climb to get over the top of the marine layer. I was in no position to do anything and just made sure we climbed and stayed level. I just imagined us hitting the powerlines, cars, houses and the hill. I was worried about myself, the thought that my CFI put us in this situation and that we could hit someone on the ground. What felt like eternity, we made it over the marine layer and continued to Concord. I decided to continue the flight as I certinly wasn't going to allow my CFI to take us back that way and figured just fly and let it burn off. Then go back.

 

Sure enough when we finished at Concord the marine layer had cleared up. I flew back to Oakland and had a heart to heart talk with my CFI. He signed me off for my instrument rating and I never flew with him again. We both made mistakes on this flight. I shouldn't have taken off to begin with. However, I made the decision to turn around when I knew it wasn't going to work, this is where my CFI made his mistake. He took us into the clouds, flying VFR in IMC. I don't really call this Inadvertant IMC, he did this on purpose.

 

 

Remember above when I said I knew somone who was killed doing this? Please read the following NTSB report. It is one of the longest and most detailed reports I have seen. If you read it closely you will get a vivid mental picture of what happened. If you have any questions please feel free to let me know. By the way, the CFI in that NTSB report.................was the CFI who signed me off for my instrument rating. Sad.

 

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=...A025&akey=1

 

You might have to copy and paste. But I really recommend you read it.

 

Treat the weather with the respect it deserves. Take things for granted and it'll catch up with you.

 

JD

[Goldy]

IMC is bad, night flight into IMC is horrible. Look at the R44 fatal incidents, the NTSB site is full of CFIT accidents in R44's..having a gyro and GPS does not make it a ship you can fly IFR...I've often wondered though, if you just flew into IMC can you do one slow turn back to where you were..and get out of it?

 

I've ducked under low ceilings, but always had visibility out front, my hats off to the guys that fly in the crap routinely...especially the night EMS operators...

 

Goldy

[Hovergirl]

Thanks for starting this thread. I've often wondered what I would do. And tonight I was just feeling sorry for myself that I couldn't fly today because the visibility is (just barely) too bad.

 

 

HVG

[joker]

JD, thanks for sharing that story.

 

There were indeed a number of CFIT incidents involvoing R44s I seem to remember around that time. One of them involved an acquaintance of mine (maybe the same one as you mentioned). Very sad.

 

Inadvertant IMC is not a good idea folks. Avoid it like the plague, because it will kill. Goldy hits on a problem. The problem is that some people believe they can handle a little IMC because they have the basic IF instruments (enough say for IR training).

 

Even in a beautifully stable and fully equipped 4-axis coupled IFR platform, when completely in 0/0 conditions, I sometimes find myself restraining my urge to override the autopilot and stabilisation system, such is the power disorientation has on the mind and body. I have looked down sometimes convinced I'm not level, to find find the wings on the EADI level. I glance over at the other pilot's instruments and the standby AI. Yep, all showing level.

 

If you have not felt it you would not believe how even the slight disorientation can get you all out of whack! Not all the time, but once is enough, if you don't have the equipment to back you up.

 

Without autopilot, just flying on instruments its only a matter of time before disorinetation will take you.

 

Without instruments its a matter of seconds.

 

What about the recovery if you find your self in inadvertant IMC?

If you have basic instruments (including AI) and Instrument training: ...maybe you have half a chance to get out. (see JDs first post) Revert to your training, scan slowly and think carefully. What was behind you, what is around you? Obstacles? Of course your best route is often behind and downwards, but not always (see JDs first post). Make any turns, climbs or descents slowly and note the instruments doing as expected. Trust the instruments. Level out slowly, again cross check with instruments. Sudden or abrupt moves will cause disorientation. This will lead to panic and blur your reasoning. Slow, slow, slow!

 

If you do break out a likelihood is that you will be in an unusual attitude. So perform your attitude recovery based on your instruments, not what you see outside, which may not be reliable. i.e. you could looking at a reflection of the sky in a lake and believe the shoreline was the horizon. Or you could be banked perfectly aligned with a mountainside! False horizons!

 

If you have no instruments (whether trained or not): ...then forget it. Say your prayers. The longest I have had a student fly successfully with their eyes closed is about 1minute. None have manged to do a successful 180 degree turn back to where they came from!

 

Joker

Edited October 15, 2007 by joker

[atc@pct]

I told my CFI we could head out and if the hills were still covered we could just come back to Oakland and work on some EP's.

 

He agreed and we set off. I was at the controls and arrived at the hills and sure enough, socked in still! Told my CFI I was turning around and before I knew it I was in the clouds. My CFI had taken the controls and started a climb to get over the top of the marine layer. I was in no position to do anything and just made sure we climbed and stayed level. I just imagined us hitting the powerlines, cars, houses and the hill. I was worried about myself, the thought that my CFI put us in this situation and that we could hit someone on the ground.

 

 

JD

 

Your narrative doesn't make it clear, so let me make sure I understand. When you realized you couldn't get over the hills, did you start to turn around while still in VMC? And the CFI took the controls and flew you into the clouds?

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Your narrative doesn't make it clear, so let me make sure I understand. When you realized you couldn't get over the hills, did you start to turn around while still in VMC? And the CFI took the controls and flew you into the clouds?

 

That's what happened. I was VMC with good vis and decided to turn back but the CFI took over the controls. I was just under the ceilings in Golf airspace so it didn't take much for him to pop in.

 

In many cases the thing to do when going into a cloud is to do a 180 turn back to "good" weather. However, each case is different. In my case the terrian wouldn't allow that and even if it did I was not really in a position to take the controls back.

[Vaqueroaero]

The woes of inadvertant IMC. As the others have all said: Avoid it like the plague.

 

There are those out there that swear that it is not possible to enter IMC conditions by accident. They're wrong. Let me tell you what happened to me.

 

A few years ago I was working with a gentleman who owned a Bell 206. He also owned a ranch on the west coast of California. It was a beautiful place, about 25 miles inland form the ocean and at a level of about 4000 feet.

 

One afternoon we had flown up there and were getting ready to leave. The time was about 5.30 and the sun was just starting to go down. There was a cloud layer above us, low - I estimated it to be about 200 AGL. I wasn't concerned though. To takeoff from the helipad all we had to do was pick up, go forward a few yards and the terrain dropped away sharply down a valley. Visibility was great - we could see the sun shining off the ocean in the distance.

 

We cranked up and picked up to a hover a started to takeoff. As we transitioned forward we started to climb. Now I just said that I estimated the ceiling to be abouit 200 feet above us. Wrong. More like 100 or so. All of a sudden we started to those tell tale whispy bits of cloud over the buuble. I told the guy to stop climbing, but literally as sson as I said that we punched in.

 

Things started to happen and go wrong in a hurry. I glanced at the artificial horizon and noticed that we were in a turn to left. Not good as I knew that to the left was rising terrain. Also not good was the fact that the light bulb had burned out so it was very difficult to see the bar. Also it was the original instrument that came with the aircraft, so it was very basic. A white line on a black background. We knew about it, but hadn't bothered to get it fixed as we thought we'd never need it.

 

I told the guy that we were turning. I glanced at him and he was looking straight outside. He didn't respond. I told him again and asked which way we were turning. I took control and yelled at him to get off the controls. He was locked up. I fought him for the controls and managed to get him off. All the time I was waiting to hit the ground. It was such a horrible feeling. it is honestly the only time in my life that I have thought "Well, this is it. How could I have been so stupid as to allow this to happen?" I was forcing myself to look at the instruments, but trust me I distinctly remember looking outside desperatly looking for the ground, but seeing only cloud.

 

I gently put us in a right turn and started to climb, and then suddenly popped out into a hole. I looked down and saw a lake, which I knew from the ranch, so dropped the collective and let the nose follow. However due to the decreased light my depth perception was off and I then got this horrible sensation that we were too low and were going to hit the ground. As we dropped all of a sudden we were bathed in sunlight, so I levelled off and long story short flew home.

 

Now analysis of mistakes.

 

1) I don't view the decision to leave as a bad one. the ceiling for the required takeoff was high enough.

2) Me being too slow to correct a less expereinced pilot.

3) Equipment not being fully functional.

 

I personally think that what saved us wwas that a few days before I had been flying with a guy who has thousands of hours of IFR time. He really beat me up on the instruments and we flew at night over some really dark places, so I was pretty fresh.

 

I know two people who have died in IFR accidents. One was a student on the way to his private checkride and the other was a CFII who crashed into the ocean. Both were totally avoidable accidents.

 

If you're not fully competent in the use of instruments, please don't take the chance of flying into weather.

 

Fly safe.

[Gomer Pylot]

Trying to fly visually in IMC is one of the quickest ways to die that exists. It will kill you. If you do punch in, the only thing to do is get on the instruments, start a climb (keep the airspeed under control at all costs), and continue straight ahead unless you know there are high obstacles there. Trying to make a 180 when you've just gone into the clouds will kill you, just about every time. Too much is going on, and your orientation and situational awareness aren't good enough to survive. After you get everything under control and are at a safe altitude, then you can consider turning around, but not immediately.

 

I came close the other night. At about 5AM we were returning to base, the weather clear, good forecast, and when we got very close to the base, descending for landing, I saw that we had fog underneath us. I turned around, still in VMC above it, and saw fog forming behind us. I got back to a small airport a few miles behind just as it started to fog in. Descending into fog, even if it looks thin, can be very dangerous because the horizontal visibility can be nil even if you can see the ground looking down. With no forecast for it, and no warning, the fog and low clouds just popped into existence. I was lucky to get back to an airport before it went down, because I didn't have much fuel onboard, being just a mile or so from the base when I had to divert. If I had been in the back seat like the med crew, I would have been very, very unhappy. I couldn't do that on a regular basis. I hate flying (or driving, for that matter) when I don't have access to the controls.

[Hedge36]

My own personal "I learned about flying from that" story involves my fixed-wing buddy/instructor/co-owner, a beat-up Cessna 172 and what was to be a quick hop between airports (about 20 miles) to attend an Angel Flight checkride.

 

It started with some scud-running, became a full IMC scare while digging in the back for approach plates at our destination, a leaking windshield, near CFIT, an 1/8 mile perpendicular almost-run-in with a 206L who was also in the soup, and some rather excited and pointed conversations with FSS Oakland.

 

Never again.

 

My personal minimums are much higher and more stringent than those laid out by the gubmint. I've buried entirely too many friends over the years and I really like spending time with my daughter.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Wow. These are all very sacry situations. Keep the thread going guys. We can all learn from this.

 

By the way, I wasn't too clear before. Airplane guys are generaly taught to do a 180 turn if they pop into the cloud as behind was clear. Typicaly airplanes are a lot higher and don't have the ground clearance issues we have. Another poster I think GOMER, made a good point as well that a result of the 180 turn can mean getting disoriented. I think in a lot of cases it does depend on the situation of, where you are flying and level of experiance the pilot has.

 

 

As part of this topic I would like to ask others to come up with ways this can be avoided. Some examples,

 

 

What are your personal weather minimums. Not the companies but YOURS?

Have you taken a look at how your decsion make process is? If we can detect the thought process that leads to IIMC early on it can prevent it. Realizing we are thinking or have feelings of "get there-itis" for example. Realizing just because we got away with something the first time doesn't mean we will a second. Or because we were able to do a flight with 1 mile vis lets do it again with 1/2, no big deal right? Things like that.

[busdriver]

I think Gomer's points are spot on.

 

Further, you need to know the MSA for the area you're flying, and have a plan. I fly a very capable IMC machine, so my thought is once IMC; commit to it, declare an emergency, contact approach and get vectors.

[mountainchopper]

good points everyone, but there is something i'd lke to bring up especially in that ntsb report is the fact that it is night. judging from speed data and rotor conditions, somehow they managed to stall the blades on that r44 so most of this is academic but...

 

they were flying at NIGHT. my point is you don't need clouds to basically go IMC while flying, I know a lot of you do most of your flying near cities (i'm speaking to the newer pilots, such as myself), but... When you are out in the middle of nowhere, with no highways and very little to no surface lighting if you try and fly you might as well be IMC. I have been told that stars do little for illumination, coupled with haze even less for horizon alignment(i.e. normal attitude).

 

recently on a long xc flight we ran into some delays which put us where we didn't want to be with the sun going down and fast, we were out in the middle of nowhere and far from anywhere. All of it be damned I opted to stop at the next airport and refuel as we needed it. by the time we got the helicopter gassed back up it was pitch black and it was a new moon. Under pressure to finish, or at least make it closer to our destination that night, there was the urge to continue on. Long story short i listened to that little voice in the back of my head and stayed in a dive motel that night for $40. the next morning at 5:45am with the sun coming up in my direction of travel and a definite, yet still rather dark horizon to reference, i took off. climbing up to 6,000 feet to make it over the hills. in front all i could see was the runway i was leaving, the morning sky and a bunch of black where i knew some large rocks were.

 

everything went smooth, and giving myself enough altitude to clear any obsticles made it to the next town and finished the trip just fine. but before it became too light out i thought i'd try a trick to see how good my decision the night before was, i made a 180* turn from the pre-sunrise back into the black, flew straight and level for one second, became completely turned around as to the ships attitude, referenced the artificial horizon to turn back around saw the horizon became re-oriented and flew the rest of the way safely.

 

what i learned from this was, if i'm in a position to be out in an area barren of celestial or surface illumination, ESPECIALLY WITH MOUNTAINS AROUND, before the sun goes down i will be on the ground even if it means sleeping beside the ship in the dirt, to hell with how my friends, boss, or anyone else may feel.

 

it doesn't take clouds to make you lose your ability to fly VFR, all it takes is a change in availability, and quality of visual cues to get messed up and maybe dead.

fly safe guys.

[500E]

Gomer

You have instrument rating don't you? & you are high hour pilot with caution as a watch word tries not to go VFR, so what chance for low hour pilot

I was taught the most important thing is to believe the dials, whatever else the instruments will not tell you lies.

It can really disorient you looking out at the muck.

With another pilot flying close your eyes and get them to do a series of gentle turns, climbs, descents, then tell them what they did, ( if you get it correct tell me how) the longer they fly the worse your perception of the situation will get.

Regular flights with the foggles Might just help you to do that 180 in VFR and live to post again, better still make good decisions and have regular time on instruments just to feel that you can fly course hight and turn with basic set.

Don't panic do things slowly, Think it through,

[RotorWeed]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=2...01838&key=1

 

Remember this accident?

[Legal Eagle]

There is no substitute for training. An instrument rating would be best, even better with some AI experience. However, even if an instrument rating is not in your future, a little training might save your life. The posters are absolutely correct about the different, less obvious ways you can get your butt bit, such as night time in remote areas. The advice about believing your instruments is also very correct, but unbelievably hard to do in practice.

 

An example of how easily this can jump up to bite you:

 

I was returning to the corporate helipad, located in a rural area. There were snow showers in the area, but outside the showers it wasn't too bad. I was relatively comfortable with marginal conditions, probably too comfortable. I had an instrument rating, over 4,000 hours at the time and quite a bit of actual instrument experience, some of it in very difficult conditions. The helicopter was well equipped. I was comfortable that I could fly it down to an ILS equipped runway at or near 0-0 if need be.

 

As I neared the pad and hanger, I noted that it they were inside a rather thick snow shower, with visibility at or near zero. I set up an orbit outside the shower waiting for it to pass. The ground in the area was snow covered, and few visual cues above the snow remained. Still, it was a very familiar area, I knew where I was and exactly what I was looking at. After a few lazy 360 degree turns, I glanced at my instruments. Although I was perfectly comfortable, and sensed nothing unusual from the helicopter, the instruments indicated that I was in a very unusual attitude and, if correct, on the verge of something from which I might not recover. My mind immediately said "NO." There was a brief but intense mental struggle at that point. Everything I had learned and taught over the years said "follow the instruments." My body said otherwise. Against all instincts I went on the guages and began the recovery process. As soon as I did, I could tell from the control responses that I had indeed been in a very dramatic unusual attitude. I remember to this day what a hard decision that had been, how close I came to following my instincts. This wasn't the first time or the last that training would save my life.

[Gomer Pylot]

500E, yes I have an instrument rating (ATP) and I enjoy flying instruments. But only in aircraft equipped for it, and after proper planning and filing. Flying instruments in a 206 isn't my idea of fun, so I do my best to not do it, other than a quick test on the annual recurrent checkride. I've practiced unusual attitudes in the aircraft and in the simulator, and I know the problems you can get into. You body won't tell you anything of value, and will almost always lie to you about your speed and attitude. The only way to live if you do go into IMC is to get on the instruments immediately, get straight and level, and then climb. You might survive a dive and turn, and you might not. And the sun might come up in the west tomorrow, and it might not. I know what I'll do - get it straight and level on the instruments, start a climb, and call for help. The proper order is aviate, navigate, and then communicate. Communication is the last priority, always. Take care of what will kill you quickest first, and keep on taking care of things in that order. Losing control of the aircraft will kill you almost immediately, and you have to take care of that first, last, and always.

[500E]

Hi gomer & LeagelEagel backed up what I was saying close your eyes with someone else flying, to tell them what they are doing is almost imposable, Instruments are your friend believe them, not to is to die.

That hour refresher on inst now and again will at least give you a fighting chance both GP & LE have more hours IFR than I have total and if they can be so disorientated so quickly, what chance for the low hour non isntrument rated pilot.

I have started an IFR course being both old and slow the concentration to fly instruments is as bad as when I initially started to fly, but I would like to go on for a few years yet

[Wally]

There's an old saying that "It's better to be on the ground wishing you were flying..." Which- paraphrased- is my motto. Further, I like flying so much that I don't let work interfere with it- when the flight gets to be too much work, I land. Those are my minimums.

Yeah, I know that's subjective. That's the point. I might go 500 & 1, or 300 & 2, and be happy as a clam. Or I'll turn down flights in the same, or better conditions without a second thought. I'm not the same everyday, and that's where the decision making process starts- self evaluation. Some days, I just don't feel top form, so being fond of me (I never go anywhere without myself), I cut Wally a break.

Even weather's not the "same", with identical observations. A lot depends on the time of day, seasons, dynamics, trends and where I'm going. Being in a helo and in bad weather's only an advantage if you can readily land- Airplanes are better for IFR.

How's the aircraft equipped, and does the stuff aboard really work? The post of the IIMC incident with a basic artificial horizon addresses that point very well.

 

My real world no-fly criterion-

I have to have a ceiling. It's got to be defined. The sharper the bottoms of the clouds, the less likely it is to suddenly go IMC, whether the base is 100, 200, or 500 feet.

I have to have somewhere to go if I chicken out. I get real anxious, IFR or VFR, when I hear reports of 0-0 within my fuel range. Biggest NO-GO! in my book is launching without an escape plan.

If I encounter weather, and I'm VFR, I avoid the necessity of attempting a 180 return to VMC. If I suspect it's marginal, I start the penetration on an oblique, with flyable weather less than a 90 degree turn a way. I keep that in sight until I'm comfortable with the new conditions. I've circled in VMC until I could do that, many times.

If I find myself going lower to maintain contact, or even more telling- slowing down, I land. If I can't see a minute ahead at cruise, I'm IMC, no matter what the official observations are. Never, ever, lower than 300 feet, en route. When it goes to crap from 300, there's no time- your first response to the issue will probably be your last, you'd better be right.

Night time requires really good vis or an IFR capable ship. Having both is better. If I can't see lights, or surface, I do not go.

 

Here's 2 IIMC encounters, both at night:

 

Dispatched at 0300, various areas of minimal temp-dew point spread, but no fog. From the hover I accelerate down the runway, and it's dark beyond the end, as I expect. I see stars above in that direction (no fog reported). Start the climb less than halfway down the runway, and as I'm climbing thru 75 feet, I can't see ahead, up, or any direction- except down- A very, very, very dangerous direction at night. I stop the ascent, and have a couple of runway lights ahead, so I s-lo-w-l-y decel, still got a couple of lights, so a descent and I pop back out at about 50 feet (takes longer to report it than it did to do it), finish the decel and descent, and hover taxi back to the pad. A minute of two later, and the low layer's genuine fog, and the vis drops throughout my area;

 

Dispatched a little after midnight to a scene in a national forest. At the LZ I discover the patient's way the heck off in the woods, and will be a while. I used to live in the area, so I catch up with the gang...

Three hours later, we depart. The only cultural lighting is a cell tower a couple miles down the highway, so I'm looking for it as I accelerate out of the vertical... Should be right there at my 11 o'clock... Keep climbing, the tower should be in sight... Start a right turn away from the tower, and I realize that I can't see the tower because I can't see anything, I'm in the clouds. I'm not going to find out how low the base is, it's DARK down there!

Continue the climb, I'm on the gauges and the trauma center's near a real airport, so I turn that way, and start thinking about the approach. frequencies, back up plan if that airport goes down (It happens, sometimes, as you're looking at them.) etc. And- I pop out at 2000, a broken layer under, good vis above, and city lights showing through the breaks ahead. Or it would be ahead, if I go that way. Night, single engine, above a national forest covered with fog- nope. Head to the edge of the broken under-cast, and follow the biggest breaks into town, and land as scud blows across at 100 to 200, soon 1/2 mile obscured, until 1400 the next day.

 

When in doubt, there is no doubt- chicken out. And, believe the gauges!

Edited October 16, 2007 by Wally

[Autorotator]

We had some pretty bad weather here in OK this year which grounded me for two weeks straight. I had a Saturday flight scheduled and was excited to finally get back up. I got in to work, called a briefer, and got a "I do not recommend VFR flight at this time" response, "but should clouds should lift enough by 09:30". Instead of calling back and getting an abbrieviated, I decided that if the briefer said the clouds "should" lift by 09:30, then that was that. Wrong. I took off with ceiling at 400 and headed West. Looks to me like it's getting worse, but the briefer said it should be good by now so I'll keep going and see if it lifts a little further West. I'm flying just under these "cotton candy" clouds which are hard to determine their level. Visibility was pretty bad at about 3sm and ended up flying right into a cloud. My instant reaction was to bank it to the right and roll out at 090. Before I knew it, I was at 40 kts and climbing. Once I got to 090, I dumped the collective and nosed it forward. Popped out of the clouds at about 200 AGL. As I was trying to get out of the clouds, one of my pax was asking me "this is pretty bad wx eh" trying to reply calmly while pinching a hole in my seat, "yeah we're going to have to head back". I am Instrument rated and a CFII but got disoriented almost instantly. Not to mention I was flying a R44 II.

 

I was the only one in the helicopter that knew what real danger we were all in. On our way back to the corp helipad, I was just thinking to myself, "I just endangered the lives of two men that have wives and children". I felt like such an ass.

 

This made me so much more restrictive on myself and my minimums and will never intentionally put anybodys life at risk again. (Not that it was actually intentional, just a bad decision to take off in the first place). Three bad decisions I made that day, I should have called back to get an abreviated, I should have never taken off, and should have turned around when I realized the wx getting worse. End of story.

 

--CM

[joker]

All,

 

Some scary posts out there. Thanks to everyone for sharing. They might just help save lives.

 

The last two posts brought a couple of points to mind.

 

1.

 

called a briefer, and got a "I do not recommend VFR flight at this time"

90% of the time, this should make your decision for you. Especially as an instructor.

 

However, there is that 10% of the time, where I might consider launching against this reccomendation.

 

Briefers will say this to you when MVFR is forecast. It is important to know therefore, whether MVFR is forecast due to visibility or clouds. Ask him if he hasn't already told you. Remember, that this is always pointed out on the Area Forecast outlook too. Here are some examples from current Area Forecasts.

 

MVFR CIG or MVFR PCPN or MVFR CIG SHRA or MVFR BR or MVFR RA BR

 

So my point is, sometimes (particularly in the tropics) it is possible to have 10K visibility but a solid ceiling at 1200 as far as the eye can see. As we know this is MVFR. The briefer can only 'not reccomend VFR flight'. However, I may well choose to launch in this weather for say, a local flight. Knowing the type of weather you are dealing with and looking out of the window on the ground is important.

 

2.

 

I took off with ceiling at 400 and headed West.

Taking off with cloud below 400 seems just crazy. I guess you must have been in Golf Airspace. Here is my next point. In controlled airspace we are monitored more closely by controllers and regulatory obligations. In controlled airspace, you would never have been permitted to launch due to it being IFR. In non-controlled airspace, why not use the category definitions as a guide too? 400' is LIFR!!!!

 

3.

I am Instrument rated and a CFII but got disoriented almost instantly.

Lastly, I want to reiterate what I said in an earlier post. Part of the required IFR equipment is to have some sort of autopilot / stabilisation system. There is a reason for that. Even the most experienced high time pilot will succumb to disorienation. Just because you are in an IFR trainer and posibly a CFII or instrument rated pilot, you need an autopilot. Many recent posts have testified to that.

 

Joker

[Gomer Pylot]

Even in controlled airspace, you can legally fly with a 400 foot ceiling. You only have to be clear of clouds, or have the minimum weather specified by your ops specs, and perhaps a SVFR clearance. In Class B, you don't need SVFR, just a clearance into the airspace. Overland minimums of 300' ceiling and 1 mile visibility is commonly permitted, and I've flown with that for most of my adult life, military and civilian. You have to be cautious, but it's certainly possible, and it's done every day. You have to make sure you don't get boxed into a corner, with no way out, but you can theoretically land if the weather gets too bad. Personal minimums are another story, and like Wally said, it can vary from day to day, depending on lots of factors. Being legal and being smart aren't the same thing.

[joker]

Gomer,

 

You're exactly right. There are many ways to get airborne VFR in IFR conditions. I was a little lazy in that paragraph.

 

Nevertheless, as you pointed out, you must maintain absolute vigilance when operating in that condition.

 

Thanks.

 

Joker

[NOETIME]

Just wanted to thank you all for sharing your experiences and giving us plenty of food for thought! Good Stuff!

[Wally]

Seems to me that most of the stories so far have been clouds or fog. Precip will IIMC you, too. Rain, in the GoM, especially in the winter, produces an extra hazard- loading a bunch of wet 'critters' can efficiently mist up the windows.

[Gomer Pylot]

Back before we had heaters in the 206s, I worked a job that routinely did well over 100 takeoffs every day, and in the winter I often had one customer detailed to fly with me in the front seat, all day, with a roll of paper towels, and his job was to wipe my windshield so I could see to take off and land. I didn't have time, and couldn't see outside without his wiping. I also once punched through a cold front, into the warm side, and the windshield immediately fogged up completely, inside and out. I did a quick turn around into the cold air, and it cleared off.