Not to jump on the band wagon, but...

[Rob Lyman]

This weekend I was flying a Piper Arrow doing touch and goes to runway 29 at our local uncontrolled airport. While in the pattern I hear a helicopter call 6 miles east for landing. A minute later he calls 3 miles east for runway 29. As I proceed around the pattern the helo then calls 1 mile final for 29. I see the helicopter on final for runway 25, not 29. I make my call turning base for runway 29, emphasizing the 2 9. He hovers on the numbers (that say 2 5) while I depart upwind on 29. Another helicopter, from the same "school" calls from the east and says he is going to runway 29.

 

The helo on 25 says only that he is conducting low work; no location or further explanation. I call downwind for 29, then base and final for 29. The new helo actually sets up for runway 29. After touching down and applying power for the touch and go, numb nutz on 25 decides to take off. He flies right toward the intersection of 25 and 29 where I am rotating and climbing out. Luckily he saw me climbing out and did a quick stop before reaching the intersection. What the heck was he thinking? He was obviously on the radios...just not listening or paying attention to them.

 

The other helo called final for 29 and I decided to get the heck out of there. Evidently that company, as well as a few fixed wing schools, decided to run detachments over at our airfield that weekend. Their airport was clobbered by an airshow TFR.

 

You all know what company the helo on runway 25 was from. For those interested in instruction from this school, I offer this story as an example of the type of instructors they have. Sure, this could have happened with an aircraft from another school, but it didn't.

 

How, as a new student, do you know if you are getting the instructor who correctly went to 29 or the guy who incorrectly went to 25? Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you need to decide on a school by the stories you hera or read.

 

What do you want to bet the instructor from the helo on 25 tried to deflect the blame to someone else or otherwise try to cover his mistake?

[slick1537]

You could have just radioed them and told them 29 was the active.

[Sparker]

So..... uh........ What school was it?!?!?!?!?!!?

 

I don't get it....

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Just Kidding!

[Azpilot]

This weekend I was flying a Piper Arrow doing touch and goes to runway 29 at our local uncontrolled airport. While in the pattern I hear a helicopter call 6 miles east for landing. A minute later he calls 3 miles east for runway 29. As I proceed around the pattern the helo then calls 1 mile final for 29. I see the helicopter on final for runway 25, not 29. I make my call turning base for runway 29, emphasizing the 2 9. He hovers on the numbers (that say 2 5) while I depart upwind on 29. Another helicopter, from the same "school" calls from the east and says he is going to runway 29.

 

The helo on 25 says only that he is conducting low work; no location or further explanation. I call downwind for 29, then base and final for 29. The new helo actually sets up for runway 29. After touching down and applying power for the touch and go, numb nutz on 25 decides to take off. He flies right toward the intersection of 25 and 29 where I am rotating and climbing out. Luckily he saw me climbing out and did a quick stop before reaching the intersection. What the heck was he thinking? He was obviously on the radios...just not listening or paying attention to them.

 

The other helo called final for 29 and I decided to get the heck out of there. Evidently that company, as well as a few fixed wing schools, decided to run detachments over at our airfield that weekend. Their airport was clobbered by an airshow TFR.

 

You all know what company the helo on runway 25 was from. For those interested in instruction from this school, I offer this story as an example of the type of instructors they have. Sure, this could have happened with an aircraft from another school, but it didn't.

 

How, as a new student, do you know if you are getting the instructor who correctly went to 29 or the guy who incorrectly went to 25? Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you need to decide on a school by the stories you hera or read.

 

What do you want to bet the instructor from the helo on 25 tried to deflect the blame to someone else or otherwise try to cover his mistake?

 

You never know. Maybe the guy on 25 was a private student working on solo time and made a mistake. It happens. I am not trying to defend what he/she did, but I don't think they intentionally tried to do something stupid and unsafe. I have in the past made radio calls informing people they were making the wrong call.

 

I have a senario even more scary. I picked up on 2 fixed wing guys that were doing IFR holds and approaches to a closed tower airport talking to one another on a frequency for an airport that is uncontrolled. If you are familiar with the Stanfield VOR in Az. you know what I am talking about. Anyway a bunch of aircraft are there and they are stacked at 500ft intervals up to 4500 ft, and these jokers are not on Freq. Needless to say the radio chatter got very interesting after the second or third near mid air. Needless to say they got on the right freq once someone informed them of their mistake.

 

Something else I have seen happen was out at Compton Airport in Southern California. There are helicopter charts out there have the wrong frequency on the chart for Compton. Being that I was a private student at the time and my instructor had never flown out there either, he mistakenly grabbed the freq off the helicopter chart. On our 3rd round in ther pattern we saw a fixed wing come into the pattern and wasnt talking. Someone in the FBO got on the old freq and yelled at us but rightly so. We were in the wrong. I went to a prominent school and my instructor is a current DPE. Sometimes things happen. Just because a mistake happens does not mean the whole school sucks. (No I did not go to SSH)

Edited November 5, 2007 by Azpilot

[Tenacious T]

Let's play "Jump To Conclusions"!!

 

He screwed up but at least he was making radio calls (I know that doesn't mean much if you don't listen to others calls). I start making radio calls whenever I am within 7 miles or so of a busy uncontrolled airport in my training area and airplanes consistently come within 500 feet of me without ever making a peep on the radio. Scares the s@#t out of me sometimes, didn't get a chance to find out what school they went to though.

[Rob Lyman]

You could have just radioed them and told them 29 was the active.

 

I did, repeatedly. The other guy obviously got it. The guy on 25, well he thought he was on 29. That is what he said on the radio a few times.

 

BTW, there is no such thing as "the active" runway at an uncontrolled field. It is neighborly and safe to use the same runway that any existing traffic is using, but not strictly mandatory.

 

The real problem is that the guy thought he was on 29, even after someone was making traffic calls to that "same" runway. I wonder how long it took for him, while doing low work, to look down at the giant "2 5" under his helo and figure out it was not a "2 9".

Edited November 5, 2007 by Rob Lyman

[Chi-town]

It doesn't matter which runway is the "active" runway because helicopters are supposed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic as per the FARs.

 

We're the same out here with intersecting runways at an uncontrolled airport. As the helicopter pilot, you need to announce your intentions AND it is also a great idea if you can complete your approach holding short of the intersecting runway (and announce you are doing so). Helos should have done a better job of announcing their positions and intentions but they are not supposed to be using the same runway unless the winds really demand it.

[Tenacious T]

It doesn't matter which runway is the "active" runway because helicopters are supposed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic as per the FARs.

 

We're the same out here with intersecting runways at an uncontrolled airport. As the helicopter pilot, you need to announce your intentions AND it is also a great idea if you can complete your approach holding short of the intersecting runway (and announce you are doing so). Helos should have done a better job of announcing their positions and intentions but they are not supposed to be using the same runway unless the winds really demand it.

You would be doing a better job of "avoiding the flow" by using the same runway with opposite and lower altitude patterns than flying patterns for an intersecting runway. Even better, sometimes I'll fly patterns to a taxiway parallel to the runway or the grass beside the runway so I don't hold up any faster fixed wing traffic.

[nbit]

<On soapbox>

 

This incident (not the FAA's definition ) illustrates one of my pet peeves. The peeve has to do with pilots (a great percentage!) that don't actually use the radio to "communicate" at uncontrolled airports, and the instructors (a great number) that, possibly unknowingly, seem to teach students to operate in such a manner. Simply talking on the radio and broadcasting one's intentions guarantees *nothing* in the way of safety, yet outlined here is somewhat of an example. Make sure the person talking is listening... Often they're not.

 

Also, I see no mention of anyone telling the pilot that set up on "2-5" and told everyone that he was on "2-9" being corrected by being "explicitly" told the error of his ways. Yet, we're quick to blast that individual here, which served no purpose to that pilot, insofar as making him safer... So, he messed up. I see the real problem as nothing was done to address the situation as it occurred. Everyone messes up... Thanks for helping make the skies safer, NOT!

 

Everyone makes mistakes (granted, we as pilots aren't supposed to...). ...*Tell* someone they messed up. No sense in chewing him/her out or boasting about their error, or using heavy tone at the time... Surely his/her ego will be bruised when he/she realized they messed up. The phrase, "When you point a finger at someone else, three are pointing back at you", seems to apply...

 

When I get the feeling that someone is "broadcasting" at an airport without listening, I "challenge" or "test" them to solicit a response, and teach my students to do the same. Another thing I like to teach students to do - when imparting your position and intentions at an uncontrolled airport, occasionally follow the report with the phrase - "...any aircraft in the area, please advise." If still no response, and you know or think that someone is in the area, and they state nothing or don't reply, challenge them by saying something like, "Cherokee on downwind 23, do you hear and see us, helicopter Three Alpha Bravo, to the west???", for example.

 

Sigh...

<Off soapbox...>

Edited November 5, 2007 by nbit

[Chi-town]

Nbit,

 

I agreed with everything EXCEPT the whole "Any aircraft please advise". When you fly out of a really busy uncontrolled airport that should have a tower (tour helicopters, tour planes, fixed-wing instruction, recreational pilots, parachutists landing 20 meters north of the field, helicopter instruction, etc.) and you announce "any traffic please advise" you will have people stepping on each other for 5 minutes.

 

You're right that people need to listen and not just broadcast their script, so if you are listening you should have a good idea of what's going on in the pattern (minus the one knucklehead who doesn't even have a radio). The FAA safety guys are now going around reminding pilots that the AIM even says pilots should never use that phrase. When I hear it, it tells me a pilot is just too lazy to take a couple minutes to get his bearings on the airport environment.

 

The reference to the AIM is 4-1-9 g.1

 

My 2 pesos.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Chi-town

[nbit]

Nbit,

 

I agreed with everything EXCEPT the whole "Any aircraft please advise". When you fly out of a really busy uncontrolled airport that should have a tower (tour helicopters, tour planes, fixed-wing instruction, recreational pilots, parachutists landing 20 meters north of the field, helicopter instruction, etc.) and you announce "any traffic please advise" you will have people stepping on each other for 5 minutes.

 

You're right that people need to listen and not just broadcast their script, so if you are listening you should have a good idea of what's going on in the pattern (minus the one knucklehead who doesn't even have a radio). The FAA safety guys are now going around reminding pilots that the AIM even says pilots should never use that phrase. When I hear it, it tells me a pilot is just too lazy to take a couple minutes to get his bearings on the airport environment.

 

My 2 pesos.

 

I agree with all points of view described above, actually... My comments were a programmed in such a manner - I was thinking of an environment that wasn't so busy in the response. I do get bearings starting 10 miles out or further if the situation allows... If you only have one comm, and the airspace butts up against each other between airports however, it may be difficult or impossible to have the resources to get the desired situational awareness, for instance. ...But, if I maybe can't see everyone or feel unsure that everyone is talking, I'll do what I can to communicate or improve situational awareness, and it may be safer to use that phrase or another to solicit a response instead of depending on things more passive, such as sight, or listening for people that either won't talk, or admit they can or can't see me. In that case, I'll deviate from the AIM and the FAA safety guys mentioned. I wouldn't want to have a midair because I took the FAA or AIM advice so strictly to heart... ...Yes, if great number of aircraft are in the pattern, etc., I agree totally. Every situation must be considered in a pilot's decision making and he/she must come up with the best course of action as appropriate. Good points!

Edited November 5, 2007 by nbit

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Rob, That's one of my biggest pet peeves! Helicopters are supposed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic PERIOD. This is how the fixed wing crowd gets helicopters restricted from certain operations at airports. There is no need for them to set up on 3 mile finals, shooting to the numbers on a runway, etc. They should use a non fixed wing area on the airport. Grass, taxiways, etc. The helicopter is an awesome machine in the right hands, but some people never learn how to actually fly them.

 

Why does a helicopter need to cross an active runaway if they are operating on a cross runway? Can't they turn before it? Come on!

 

You can pick a point somewhere else and go for it.

 

ROR in Denver has the tower convinced that helicopters need an entire runway to land on...taxi, etc. We had a hell of a time convincing them that a helicopter could actually take-off from a spot on the airport and return there! Wow!

[Copterpilot213]

I agree with nbit, the guy on 25 did make a mistake. I just don't understand why you wouldn't politely tell him that he's on 25, not 29. That would hopefully make him understand where you were and what you were doing before the near-miss and quick stop ever needed to happen.

 

Granted, it might not have helped and it's not your responsibility. However it can't hurt, right?

[Copterpilot213]

Also, I forgot to mention... Landing on a grass area or taxiway is definitely a good idea... for experienced pilots. Pilots that are doing their solo-cross countries and working on their private license need all the help they can get in case of an engine failure or other emergency that would require a large, smooth space. That might be why they land on runways.

 

They should still avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic though!

[HelliBoy]

It doesn't matter which runway is the "active" runway because helicopters are supposed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic as per the FARs.

 

We're the same out here with intersecting runways at an uncontrolled airport. As the helicopter pilot, you need to announce your intentions AND it is also a great idea if you can complete your approach holding short of the intersecting runway (and announce you are doing so). Helos should have done a better job of announcing their positions and intentions but they are not supposed to be using the same runway unless the winds really demand it.

 

I really hope you're not saying that a helicopter has no right to use a runway that is currently being used by a fixed wing. Avioding the flow of fixed wing traffic means make right patterns at a left pattern airport, not that you have to fly all of your approaches out of wind because an airplane has dibs on the runway. Going to a paralell or grass area or whatever is good but how many completely off track or overshot base to finals have we all seen? We still need spacing and maybe I want to practice running landings or fulldowns or its nighttime. The FARs expect us to be smart enough to sequence ourselves without the help of a tower.

If there are intersecting runways both being used as an "active" (a term which I have absolutely no problem with using) the danger is increased tenfold in my opinion- flight paths will cross multiple times regardless of pattern direction- what if both aircraft are on final and simultaneously decide to go-around? If you are doing or teaching this please stop. The only time I would do this is if I could remain outside of the runway safety area of the runway the other aircraft was using. Even then I tend not to trust other pilots at uncontrolled airports to be competent and most fixed wingers have no idea what helicopters do.

If you lack the skill or experience to operate and sequence safely in a high traffic uncontrolled airport environment then you should not be flying in them without an instructor-and if you're an instructor and cant do it competently you need to seek continuing education.

The 'thread' of this thread seems to be more about a failure of pilots to maintain a proper ammount of situational awareness and radio discipline. There are far too many pilots in the world, fixed wing and heli, who see blue sky, full fuel, RPM in the green, and bomb around dumb and happy. I would've torn into the pilots in the above examples on the radio- I could care less about their hurt feelings- there is no excuse for stupidity or carelessness because its not just their @$$ on the line...its mine too. I would've called the school also, they should want to know if there are unsafe practices going on in their machines. If a student doesnt know what he's doing his instructor is incompetent-no excuse. Just becuase there are no runway incursions reported or regulated for uncontrolleds doesnt make u less dead when it leads to an accident.

 

This being all said I try always to be corteous and clear with other pilots while sharing an uncontrolled airport...work at the spacing, extend downwinds, do an orbit, whatever it takes. Going to a paralell or grass area or whatever is good but how many completely off track or overshot base to finals have we all seen? We still need spacing. The FAA gives a fairly wide margin (ie:Lack of rules) on uncontrolled ops because they expect us to use the right combination of intelligence, competence, and discretion when we dont have someone telling us what to do.

 

Rant over.

[500E]

We try to land on the dead side of active runway if at all possible, those poor plank men need all our help to get down.

If ground radio is either non existent or not working please advise your intention on frequency, this way others al least have a chance to make an informed decision.

If there is ground radio we ask for grass on dead side, they are usually happy to keep you off the runway

[southernweyr]

ROR does need the full runway to take off and land, right?

 

I had a guy fly about 200 feet in front of me after I had repeatedly reported holding at 3500 over Stanfield VOR after he had called that he was incoming. I was headed inbound about to cross over the VOR for the approach and he crossed over the VOR right in front of me. After he flew passed, I politely asked what he was thinking and he said that he thought we would be gone by the time he got there. Well, I didn't yell too much but I hope that he took that as a wake up call. I know I did. Anytime anybody is incoming to the VOR where your holding make sure you are looking for that traffic! They may or may not be at the right altitude.

[Chi-town]

Ok Helliboy, I see your point. Too bad we can't do opposite side traffic on the same runway due to noise abatement procedures (yeah, yeah, safety trumps everything). I've been soloing and training students how to stay situationally aware at this airport for a while. So far, no runway incursions or close calls caused by anyone (knock on wood) in spinning rotor blades. Good example of how situationally oblivious our brothers in the planes are: A twin otter decided to taxi and use 9R as a cherokee was using 27L for touch and goes and another twin otter (from the same tour company) was on 2 mile final for 27L. This is not uncommon when the winds are light and variable.

 

All the while trying to teach traffic patterns and radio procedures to a green horn and show him what right looks like. Each uncontrolled airport has its own personality and pilots need to use the FARS as a baseline and then adjust their procedures to the environment. Obviously, communication is the key but I just think you can't give a cookie cutter answer to fit all uncontrolled airports.

 

Also, who says a helicopter can't make a turn while conducting a go around to avoid an incursion into the runway where another aircraft is doing a go around?

[Scarab]

I will announce my intentions in the pattern at uncontrolled airports, and I always emphasize (right traffic) if thats the case, to help them understand that I'm on the opposite side of the pattern. Something I started doing way back in training and it seems to help. As mentioned above many times there is a parallel taxi way or other suitable area but I always try to describe my intention in relation to the runway, so they know (hopefully) where to look for me. One of the small airports around here doens't have a taxiway, the plank boys have to taxi back on the runway. Seem more than one last second go around there, pretty scary.

[joker]

Our local uncontrolled airport. or Our local uncontrolled airport.

 

Without more information of the geometry of the airport, its difficult to 'jump on any bandwagon'. Where was the intersection? East, Middle or West? Were you the only one in the pattern? Were you making left or right patterns? Was his student on radio or instructor? Did you establish any two-way communication?

 

You obviously feel that you are the superior pilot here. I think there could have been 100 and 1 reasons why this pilot acted as he did (or even made the RWY error) if he did.

 

1. His radio was turned down. Didn't hear your call. He looked up to see you , sidestepped to 25 threshold.

 

2. Your radio transmitter was not good. He could only hear your transmission 1/5.

 

3. He deliberately called 29 patterns and then elected to use 25 when closer.

 

4. 2nd Guy setting up for 29 did nothing wrong. He avoided you.

 

Rob, from your post, it certainly sounds like there were misunderstanding and errors made by this helicopter driver. But that's all we have to go on. If so, then that doesn't surprise me. I've made mistakes before.

 

Could there be other reasons why the events occured as you describe rather than attributing it to simply the 'numbnutz' factor?

 

Could it be a misunderstanding on your part? Could you have missed one of his calls? Could, what you thought was a takeoff, have been a quick stop exercise? Could the two pilots have agreed before leaving that low level work would be done on the inactive runway and so no need to give locations (you had seen him on 25 presumably)?

 

You also strongly hint that this is connected to a particular school - like you said, 'bandwagon'. I'm not sure about this. It just seems un-necessary.

 

A captain told me the other day: When you point a finger at someone else, there are three pointing back at yourself.

 

Just an alternative wagon.

 

Joker

Edited November 7, 2007 by joker

[Rob Lyman]

Without more information of the geometry of the airport, its difficult to 'jump on any bandwagon'. Where was the intersection? East, Middle or West? Were you the only one in the pattern? Were you making left or right patterns? Was his student on radio or instructor? Did you establish any two-way communication?

 

The airport is KHEG. Runway 29 ends about 1/2 to 2/3 down runway 25. At the time I was the only one in the pattern and had been making calls crosswind, downwind, base and final. Aircraft at an airport 50 miles away (which uses our same CTAF) heard my calls, because they asked for clarification that I was going to 29 at HEG and not 29 at X47. I was making left traffic to 29.

 

You obviously feel that you are the superior pilot here. I think there could have been 100 and 1 reasons why this pilot acted as he did (or even made the RWY error) if he did.

 

In this case, yes, I think I was the superior pilot. But that is not what the post was about. I instruct at this airport and am very familiar with the various operations that occur at the airport. I am very cautious and deliberate with respect to safety when operating at this airport due to its varied and sometimes heavy traffic. You are correct, there could be 100s of reasons why. The circumstances and my experience tell me that the likihood of this not being a "numbnutz" situation are low, but not impossible.

 

 

1. His radio was turned down. Didn't hear your call. He looked up to see you , sidestepped to 25 threshold.

 

No real sidestep scenario existed.

 

2. Your radio transmitter was not good. He could only hear your transmission 1/5.

 

My calls were heard and responded to by aircraft over 50 miles away.

 

3. He deliberately called 29 patterns and then elected to use 25 when closer.

 

Possibly, but then he never made a call stating his new intentions.

 

4. 2nd Guy setting up for 29 did nothing wrong. He avoided you.

 

Agree.

 

Rob, from your post, it certainly sounds like there were misunderstanding and errors made by this helicopter driver. But that's all we have to go on. If so, then that doesn't surprise me. I've made mistakes before.

 

Could there be other reasons why the events occured as you describe rather than attributing it to simply the 'numbnutz' factor?

 

Sure it is possible. We all make mistakes. I posted this as a learning experience, as a warning to "watch out" and also as a recommendation to err on the cautious side when working at uncontrolled airports. I also tied it in to the "bandwagon" in that this is the first "numbnutz" move by a helicopter I had seen at the airport (I see fixed wing guys screw up all of the time) and it coincided with the first time I encountered these "guys" working at the airfield.

 

Could it be a misunderstanding on your part? Could you have missed one of his calls? Could, what you thought was a takeoff, have been a quick stop exercise? Could the two pilots have agreed before leaving that low level work would be done on the inactive runway and so no need to give locations (you had seen him on 25 presumably)?

 

On final to 29 I made a radio call and saw the guy hover taxiing just west of the numbers of 25. I dropped below the trees on short final and lost sight of the helo on 25. Doing a touch and go, I applied power, accelerated and rotated. Just then, the treeline between 29 and 25 broke and I saw the helo accelerating down 25. I called on the radio, "62Y on 29 on the go!". This is when he executed his quick stop manuever.

 

You also strongly hint that this is connected to a particular school - like you said, 'bandwagon'. I'm not sure about this. It just seems un-necessary.

 

I've read a lot of stories about that school and have always tried to reserve judgement based on those stories. I have, however, had a couple of opportunities for first hand contact with people from this school and can say my experience has not been impressive; at least not in a good way.

 

A captain told me the other day: When you point a finger at someone else, there are three pointing back at yourself.

Just an alternative wagon.

 

Fair enough. I usually point the finger at myself to begin with. In this case I think I did everything right. Could I have done more to affect how this situation developed? Sure. I think some of the discussion has pointed that out. Chalk this one up as a learning experience.

 

To clarify the "bandwagon" aspect of this post: For those looking for instruction, hopefully stories like this will not be the only information you use to decide whether to avoid this school (or any other), but they should serve as a reason to be thorough when investigating the school's history. Heck, you should do that even without stories to warn you. Although you could all speculate as to who this school is and most of you would be correct, I did not mention the name because frankly, it could apply to any school that has a questionable history.

[slick1537]

Man I recall something in the ADM about macho....

[joker]

Rob,

 

Well, I said 101 reasons didn't I? We've nailed 4; only 97 to go!

 

Look, while you duely dismissed 4 of my 101 possible scenarios (I had no doubt you would), we both know that they are not the crux of my post, nor the real reason for your original post.

 

I don't disbelieve you saw what you saw. Let me explain:

 

My first thought when I see any post that lambasts someone so blatently is, 'What is the motive'? Self-promotion, revenge, agitation, or geunine good motives? Couple with that, the lack of balanced observation, nor fair arguement, I get more suspicious of the possible bias. Add to that, as in your case, the title and its obvious inference to one particular school (which has in the past been hotly debated and the cause of many emotions); with that, you know that you will win the hearts of the jury, before they've read even the first paragraph. All of these suggest to me, an emotionally charged post or a post written to yeild a specific result.

 

Ever since learning about political propanganda techniques used by the Nazi's in WWII, I began to recognise those same techniques cropping up in my everyday life. The television, politicians, advertising and yes, even in a meek and lowly forum such as this.

 

So, rightly or wrongly I now deliberately read everything critically, before making judgement. I guess, I also wish that more of the world were less open to propaganda, marketing - and more insistant on sifting through all that to make their own informed judgements. Is this a little pompous, maybe. But I only have to look at the number of hoax emails which get forwarded to me from fully grown adults,to affirm my suspicion that joe average is a 'follower'. That's why we call joe average one of the 'masses'.

 

Hence my reason for challenging your post. Nothing personal. I would be the same if my best mate posted it. I guess like the beggar in the street, I am making you 'work a little harder' before I will give you my coins.

 

HOWEVER Rob,

 

I have hijacked your thread so now will try to get it back online.

 

You describe a potentially dangerous scenario. Unfortunately, there will always be someone operating below the expectations and requirements. At the very least, the actions of the helicopter pilots were not thoughtful, and worse, were probably in error.

 

It is a good reminder to us all that we must remain vigilant, especially when opeating at non-towered airports.

 

I am sure everyone has read the AC 90-66A Recommended Standards Traffic Patterns for Aeronautical Operations at Airports without Operating Control Towers haven't they? Of course there is a wealth of other information and advice around too. This is just a start.

 

Some good discussion is ensuing regarding communcation techniques at these airports. Remember the guidelines of the FAR and the AIM are primary. We have already have had one person demonstrate that these documents are not properly read or understood.

 

I will add my own technical note, to question the approaches both the helicopters used. According to the sectional chart KHEG is tucked in between a quite interesting array of Class D airfields. An approach from the east may have been the only way in due to airspace restrictions. Nevertheless, the AIM does say that pilot's should not use 'straight-in' approaches to non-towered airports. From 6 miles East to runway 29 or 25???? That's pretty straight-in to me. So I wonder if there are any other 'joining' techniques these guys could use.

 

That's all for now!

 

Joker

Edited November 7, 2007 by joker