EYW-MIA Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Besides, if this was an on going problem with this particular helicopter, why weren't all the instructors not jumping on maintenance and management about this? Many of times I have run across CFI's complaining about a particular aircraft, but they have never talked with maintenance or the Chief CFI about it. Why? The usual excuses I have heard are: 'They already know about it', One of the other instructors complained about it' and so on. Keep in mind what wheel gets the grease. Hint: it is not the quiet wheel. "Our maintenance facility says idle speeds and mixtures are properly adjusted, though they have tweaked them on several occasions". See the way I took it from the story was that it was an on going problem with this ship. That is where I got my fuel from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 "Our maintenance facility says idle speeds and mixtures are properly adjusted, though they have tweaked them on several occasions". See the way I took it from the story was that it was an on going problem with this ship. That is where I got my fuel from. EM, From what I got out of the 1st post, it was a fairly new ship and the issue they were having was not happening to just this ship but a known quirk of all 300 when they are dealing with HIGH and HOT, and doing engine failure training. When dealing with hot temperatures, fuel injected engines can get a vapor lock in the FI system. Because of the prop, fuel injected airplanes generally only have an issue during a hot start as in flight, the prop is providing enough of a flywheel effect to prevent it during low power operations. It is not unknown for a piston airplane with a fuel injected engine to have the engine quit while sitting on the taxiway. From what it sounds like in the description, that is most likely what happened. Plus with the wide range of density altitudes they are dealing with, it is quite possible that maintenance is setting everything correctly, but a few degrees of temperature change and everything goes out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EYW-MIA Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Learn something new every day. Thank you sir. Very respectively,EWY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Wow, cool to see an old FlingWing206 response.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280fxColorado Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Vapor locking is very common on the fuel injected lycomings on hot days -- no matter how well they are maintained or "tweaked." Not much to do about it except understand it and expect it. Anything above 85 degrees and I expect to kill the engine at least some of the time while doing hover autos in the Schweizer. The Enstrom is even worse. With the turbo, it gets blazingly hot inside the engine compartment. This is why throttle chops are not recommended for autorotation entry -- especially not unannounced, and certainly not unless you are over terrain where you'd be comfortable taking it all the way in! I was doing hover autos today with a student @ ~8,000 DA in the 280fx. We killed the engine twice in five attempts. I briefed the student on it beforehand, we expected it, and cranked the engine immediately after it quit before rotor rpm bled off too much for quick restarts. No big deal. Last summer I was getting a student ready for an initial PPL checkride in 95 degree weather, nearly 10,000ft DA. I demo'd the first two autos explaining that we would only gently roll throttle back to split the needles. No throttle chops for risk of killing the engine. He did the first few beautifully. On the 4th one, I was rambling on in instructor mode about his "really smooth entry" when I notice things were awfully quiet. Looked down at the tach and noticed engine RPM was at Zero! Whooops, "MY controls!" Fortunately we were set up perfectly with a brisk headwind and straight in to a runway. We landed smoothly without issue, love the Enstrom high inertia! The student admitted he did accidentally chop the throttle fully closed. We got out, did a thorough a walk around, and called the mechanic who verified our suspicion. Started up the helo like normal, did a few extra engine checks on the ground, hovered for five minutes, practiced a few throttle chop hover autos, agreed all systems normal, and flew away. I don't think there's anything unreasonable about MMC's decision to fly away after an engine failure from a known condition. As he said, he "failed" the engine because of the throttle chop. It wasn't something completely unexpected or inexplicable. The choice of location for the throttle chop, that's another story. An A&P cert doesn't give you xray vision and a magic wand. A little bit of common sense and understanding of systems goes a long way... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) There may be some defense in continuing to fly an aircraft after faulty pilot technique has stopped the engine. I'd have to be absolutely convinced that that was the case.An unanticipated, spontaneous engine stoppage aside from pilot induced stoppages- is an absolute end of day until maintenance has identified and fixed the specific cause of the power failure. A pilot can't release an aircraft to service after a maintenance issue, which a forced landing due to systems failure definitely is. Edited July 3, 2011 by Wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yesterday, I did a flight in a 300 for the first time in a year and a half, so I did a quick study of the RFM. And I found a interesting comment in the RFM for both the C and CB. They are both setup as WARNINGS. 300C WARNING AVOID THROTTLE CHOPS TO FULL IDLE AT ALTITUDES ABOVE 7000 FEET,TO AVOID POSSIBILITY OF ENGINE STOPPAGE. 300CB WARNINGAVOID THROTTLE CHOPS TO FULL IDLE ABOVE 3750 FEET DENSITY ALTITUDE,TO AVOID POSSIBILITY OF ENGINE STOPPAGE. I wonder how many of the CFI's flying these helicopters are fully aware of these warnings? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungo5 Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 There was a very unfortunate accident in MA, just over a year ago, on a very high and hot day. A CFI checkride ended fatally for the FAA examiner after the engine on a 300CBi failed during a practice auto. Although the NTSB are still deliberating the prelim report does suggest the engine stopped after the throttle was chopped, and couldn't be restarted. Sad to say they didn't quite make their spot and ended up in the trees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 You guys have pretty much said it all, but I will add that a couple years ago a airplane landed hard during a instructional flight and the engine quit on impact. After loking it over the CFI took off and didnt clear the trees/powerlines at the end of the runway and died. Have a mech. check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heli3544 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Who cares where he did the throttle chop... That's the point of it all...Surprise. You cant pick where your engine fails... In my eyes good job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Who cares where he did the throttle chop... That's the point of it all...Surprise. You cant pick where your engine fails... In my eyes good job! Whomever is doing the chopping should be quite certain a suitable landing area is easily within glide distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Its generally "standard procedure" for the CFI to take the controls if the "sh*t really hits the fan",...no matter how experienced the student is! Not to mention had he let the student attempt the auto and it had gone wrong, the FAA might have something to say about his decision making skills as an instructor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I had the engine quit in a 300C upon entry into an auto. It was very hot, not so humid but we were nowhere near the 7000ft limit. It can happen at any altitude on a hot/humid day. I was set up for a runway so there was no issue with making a spot and we landed fine. I also did not reduce to idle either, I was told not to snap the throttle but to reduce the power as you lower the collective. It has happened multiple times to people I know at Bristow on those hot Florida days at sea level too. Always have a place to go. Your student might be surprised but you should not be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 As a side note I know of a local operator that just lost a 300 (no one hurt) as a result of the exact same thing. As the story goes - Instructor snapped the throttle closed, student enters auto, about 200' AGL instructor notices no engine, takes helicopter from student but in this case totally destroys the helicopter at the bottom of the auto. Both instructor and student walked away. This Time. 300 destroyed, student no longer a student and instructor no longer an instructor. Bad all the way around, but at least no one dead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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