Superman Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 This is a follow up question from the other threads regarding logging of flight time. I'm just curious as to how many times you've had someone look at your actual logbooks. Either for a job interview, checkride, insurance or whatever the case may be. I myself have only had my logbooks reviewed on checkrides, and then only one examiner went through it line for line, the others just kinda looked them over and that was that.Other than that, it has been whatever I tell them, and if I fly like a 3000 hr pilot, then I am, If I don't then it doesn't much matter what's in the book. Have a good Holiday Clark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 This is a follow up question from the other threads regarding logging of flight time. I'm just curious as to how many times you've had someone look at your actual logbooks. Either for a job interview, checkride, insurance or whatever the case may be. I myself have only had my logbooks reviewed on checkrides, and then only one examiner went through it line for line, the others just kinda looked them over and that was that.Other than that, it has been whatever I tell them, and if I fly like a 3000 hr pilot, then I am, If I don't then it doesn't much matter what's in the book. Have a good Holiday Clark Good point, Clark! For all the discussion about it that we do, it almost seems like a moot point. I have had my logbooks reviewed the same number of times as you, give or take depending on the number of checkrides. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 As far as I can recall, I have had one person look at my logbook during the past 40 years. That was an FAA guy who ramp checked me on my first solo cross-country in a Cessna 150. He noted that I had no hood time, which was required before solo, and let me go on my way. Back at the school, they said the equivalent of "Oh, crap!" and took me out for about 15 minutes of hood time before signing me off again. Nobody since has looked at it, and I don't even have the original any more, it was lost during an Army move somewhere. I have a couple in the closet, one full and one partially filled, but I've been using an electronic logbook for years. Even on my ATP ride, I just entered my time from looking at my Palm, and that was that. I certified that I had the time, the DE knew I had the time, and there was no drama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 (edited) Just realized I haven't logged anything this year! The job tracks it, and that's good enough for me.Sure sign one is getting to be an "Old... Edited November 21, 2007 by Wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 (edited) Yep, it is a good point. I like to keep a written log. I think it looks that little bit better to present to some pompous potential employer. If you are staying in US for your entire career, then I guess the evidence of compliance for each check or test is largely, the previous check or test. Thus, the need for logbook scrutiny becomes less. I think if you are moving around the world from authority to authority, then the logbook becomes a necessity. Each authority I hold licences with (other than FAA) went through with a fine-toothed comb. Something to consider. (Come to think of it, any 'foreign' student I had joining the FAA system got his logbook scrutinized by FSDO or DPE, as far as having to have maps to show distances of cross-country flights, etc..etc.. I think it is a conversion thing.) As for employers, well they need it to show the minimum hours to be considered for the job. After that, your performance in the air is what matters. Joker Even on my ATP ride, I just entered my time from looking at my Palm Wow, you're one of them - A palm reader! Can you tell how long you're going to live, and how wealthy you're gonna be too! Edited November 22, 2007 by joker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 Keep your logbooks accurate! You can fly for years and no one, not even an examiner will look at them... the first time the FAA has an issue with you they will go through every single entry! I've been flying since 1985, and never ever had anyone except a CFI for endorsements need them...until last November when I pissed off an FAA guy... Then I had to prove many entries. Keep good records! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparker Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Keep your logbooks accurate! You can fly for years and no one, not even an examiner will look at them... the first time the FAA has an issue with you they will go through every single entry! I've been flying since 1985, and never ever had anyone except a CFI for endorsements need them...until last November when I pissed off an FAA guy... Then I had to prove many entries. Keep good records! How can you prove any of that? Unless it is dual time what evidence is there? Also what software is good for logging time on a pc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 The only thing the FAA can demand to see is time you're using for a current certificate upgrade, and you of course have to prove currency. You don't have to log anything other than that, and they can't demand to see it. If it's in the logbook and signed by you, that has always been considered proof enough. It's often simply not possible to prove otherwise, either way. Pilots flying for a Part 135 operator can usually prove whatever is needed with company records, but if you've been flying Part 91, your logbook is the only record in many cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 (edited) The only logbook entries you are required to make are to meet recency of experience, training timetowards a rating or certificate AND your flight review. Edited November 24, 2007 by helonorth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 (edited) The only logbook entries you are required to make are to meet recency of experience, training timetowards a rating or certificate AND your flight review. Edited November 24, 2007 by helonorth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 How can you prove any of that? Unless it is dual time what evidence is there? Also what software is good for logging time on a pc? Simple, When you tell the FAA to go $%&* themselves when they are messing with your way to make a living (and making a living with a helicopter is very tough), and they launch a full investigation into you and your company, everything you have on paper suddenly becomes subject to review. True, you only need to log items related to currency, etc. But who does that? Anything else you have in there will be questioned when they really look at it. When you really piss their egos off, they will investigate entries to verify the flight really happened. Don't you log all of your flights? As an employer, I'd want to see what kind of flying you've been doing. Much more important than hours you've logged. As far as proving it... The aircraft has a hobbs...every aircraft. The company or owner is required to keep accurate logs. If it's rented, and lets says you show an entry for your currency on Dec. 1st, and the N number in the company books shows that aircraft down for maint or another student, etc.....guess what... This goes on and on. You make up the scenario. Another one... You own the bird and in your log book you have 800 hours. The only N number listed is your aircraft. Your aircraft logs show 500 hours................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctk2 Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 My logbook is for two reasons. One, show currency. But the biggest reason is me. My fly career, now thirty years running is something I take pride in, and tracking the hours is a novelty to me.. Novelty = entertaining. Ok, Im weird, but someday when I hang it up, Ill be able to look back and see "heres something I did with my life" and Im proud of it.Peace out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Its true, all you need to log (per FAA) is that required to show aeronautical experience for ratings and currency. The FAA is not all I keep my logbook for! Its nice when you are in Gomer's position. So secure in his job, that he can simply log the minimum. There does come a time when logging each and every flight just becomes pointless. Where experience will show in the jobs you've held, references from other people and the way you fly rather than your logbook. However, when you are fresher in the industry, you need that time as proof. Maybe to get the interview. Also, I reiterate. If you think you are going to be moving around the world, keep your logbook tidy. Not only for employers, but for authorities. Lastly, for some a well kept logbook is a thing of pride. Regarding, FAA history checks; I have heard of FAA demanding to contact a student's past instructor. This is even many year's after they flew together. I have heard of people having their licence revoked when they are found to have got a previous certification on fraudulent terms. As for PC logbooks, Safelog is pretty good. I personally wrote a backend on MS Access, I have a General front-end which I can bring up any statistic, print reports, enter one-off-flights, enter new aircraft and persons etc.. Then I have written a specific front-end for each place I have worked, which will take the information in the form that we log at work and convert and enter it to my own database format. This is my primary logbook. From there, I simply copy the data into a paper logbook. So the numbers in my paper one always add up. It all works very nicely. Joker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 One reason I don't bother to log much is that every 135 operator I've ever known about keeps rather detailed records, and provides summaries to pilots periodically, so it's not really necessary. There is, of course, a difference between a student pilot and a working commercial pilot, especially after the total time gets into the thousands of hours. I started off logging every flight, usually in detail, but that eventually becomes a drag, not worth the trouble. For electronic logging, almost anything will work. A spreadsheet or database can be constructed in whatever format you like. The FAA does not specify the format for a logbook, either electronic or printed. Your paper logbook can be a blank notebook if you like, as long as the data gets there somehow. There are many computer pilot logbooks available, and they all work. They just have different quirks, like all software, and each pilot needs to try out some and decide which works best for him. I've used several over the last 20 years or so, and abandoned all of them. I have PalmLog on my Palm PDA, mostly because it was free, but I seldom use it. I haven't logged anything in several years - I just don't bother. I have to log every flight on the company computer, and I just don't have the ambition to do it again for my own purposes. A PDA makes it easy to do the logging, because you can have it with you all the time, and there are programs that will sync the PDA with a logbook on your PC each time you sync the PDA. Some people don't like PDAs, though, so that's not for everyone. A good electronic logbook will easily show currency, and time summaries for most categories, but it's certainly possible to do this with simple spreadsheets or database files. That's the sort of thing spreadsheets and databases were designed to do. Logbooks are really just databases with a specific user interface, so the interface is the only thing that separates them. Find one you like and use it. My only advice on this would be to try to find programs that allow importing and exporting the data, preferably through .csv files, so you can change programs easily. With no import/export, you're tied to that program unless you want to manually enter every flight again. I won't do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rotorflyr84 Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Would it be a good idea to have separate fixed and rotor logbooks? Or does it really not matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman Posted November 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Would it be a good idea to have separate fixed and rotor logbooks? Or does it really not matter? It's a good idea to keep your log in some sort of format that is easy to separate your fixed wing and rotor wing hours. If I had it to do again, I probably would have kept two logs. Now I have an electronic log as well as my paper log and keep both updated. The electronic logs are nice and easy to use but I still like to have my book as a back-up. Old Skool I guess. Clark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lelebebbel Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Simple, When you tell the FAA to go $%&* themselves when they are messing with your way to make a living (and making a living with a helicopter is very tough), and they launch a full investigation into you and your company, everything you have on paper suddenly becomes subject to review.how about keeping 2 logbooks? log only the required time in one, for the FAA, and have another one in your desk at home were you log everything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Would it be a good idea to have separate fixed and rotor logbooks? Or does it really not matter? Fixed wing and Rotorcraft logbooks ARE a great way to do it. I have two. If you fly both regulary, its easier to document if you separate the two. As far as having one for yourself and one for the FAA, maybe early in your flying career you could do it beacuse the entries come slower, but why? When you fly daily, sometimes you can go weeks without updating it. You try to keep it current, but due to travel, sleep, etc, your forget an hour here or there. Good point though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rotorflyr84 Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I just got another logbook for helicopter hours. I'm going to keep it seperate from my fixed-wing logbook because, as you mentioned, it is just easier to keep track of what hours are in what type of a/c. I have my hardcover logbook, and a electronic logbook as well, for both. Also wanted to let you all know in case you didnt know already, there's an electronic logbook free of charge, and it is really nice. It uses excell, but the formulas are already pre-programed and it adds everything up automatically when you enter your data. The only thing is, is for rotor hours, I just clicked on the SEL tab, and hit delete, and typed in rotor. then saved it, works awesome. http://airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_...Itemid,112.html ENJOY!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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