Goldy Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 (edited) So I'm at home watching the Malibu fire rage out of control over the weekend. About 10am Saturday morning, during live TV coverage of the aircraft fighting the brush fire, in flies an R22....right into the fire area. The local TV channel zoomed in on his tail number (nice job there, Larry). They actually had to call off the airdrops because of this ship. In case there is any new pilots out there reading this, there is an immediate TFR, usually up to 3Mi and 3000AGL over any active fire to protect firefighting efforts. Just don't go near one. period. Needless to say, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. So which one of you was it ? Anyway, if you were flying over Malibu in a R22 with a tail number starting with N5 last Saturday, I would be on a plane to Antartica right now. In fact, on behalf of the helicopter community, I would like to put you on that plane....preferably horizontally. Here's a link to the TFR http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?Content...ff521184c8& FLY SAFE..CHECK FOR TFR's! Goldy Edited November 27, 2007 by Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brushfire21 Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Goldy, 3mi seems a little shy from my memory when I read the above post, so I went looking through my fire paperwork for my diagrams and then found the pdf on the web. On page 8 of the pdf, it shows a nice layered cake pictogram of the FTA. I am sure a few other guys that fly in the FTA/TFR area can give concrete information on this. But to be honest, with the DC-10 flying through these things, I personally would want to give it and the standard S-2T tankers more room for maneuvering! http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/fire/aviation/airs...e/Chapter07.pdf The FTA (Fire Trafffic Area) utilizes a five NM radius from the incident latitude and longitude.Five NM is the minimum radius, although a radius greater maybe used to adapt to unique incident demands. The upper most limit ofthe FTA can flex vertically depending on operational requirements ofparticipating incident aircraft.There is an “initial Contact ring� established on a 12 NM radius fromthe incident latitude and longitude. There is a “NOCOM ring� orholding ring established on a 7 NM radius from the incident latitudeand longitude. If no communications (hence the coined term“NOCOM� are established, the aircraft will hold at 7 NM and notpenetrate the FTA any further. The NOCOM holding options include a7 NM option or a quadrant option.The FTA concept provides for arriving aircraft to be at the assignedaltitude given by the Air Tactical Group Supervisor or Lead Plane priorto penetrating the FTA. For a standard shape FTA, the penetrationpoint would be 5 NM from the incident.Large incidents often will have airspace requirements and TFR’s thatexceed the dimensions of a standard FTA. In this case, Initial Points(IP’s) are used in conjunction with transition routes to and from theincident. An IP is a physical location based on geographic or coordinatereference such as a latitude/longitude. Unless otherwise directed,arriving aircraft will reference the IP for initial communicationsand NOCOM procedures. PS, I almost ended up at the Malibu Fire. Thank goodness we got cancelled and then turned around Saturday afternoon midway down Hwy.5 as other units from up here in the northern part of the state sat in staging! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredR Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 While working on the Sawmill Complex this summer we had an R44 fly low level directly over our helibase. While the helibase was outside the TFR, none of us were too happy to have to worry about dodging low level aircraft while transitioning to and from the helibase with external loads. My advise to to stay as far away from any active fires as possible. Also, if you see a fire that wasn't covered by a TFR, it might be a new start and most likely there will be initial attack aircraft working it so give it a wide berth as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotor91 Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 I'm sure someone will have their ticket pulled for sometime, if they can find the guy! Pilots like that, make our small community look like sh#t....I hope they pull his ticket! Glad Larry got the N #'s! Just found out today, that our good friends lost everything in the newest Malibu fire, beautiful house, guest house, office, on about 2+acres...really nice view too! Even their dogs died! I was out in Agoura awhile ago, and was flying through the mountains, and the LA County Fire was lifting from one of their pads in the mountains. They were about 1/4 mile away, and I made a position report on .02 and they never responded....must of not have been on the .02 frequency...go figure! I loved the shot of Carson's S-61 snorkleing out of a Dough-Boy....NICE! R91 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_z Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 We had some guys out there doing fire suppression. They got some sweet pics. I'll see if I can dig them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbit Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 I have four times run into a fire that was yet unreported (after getting a FSS brief and having TFR's noted of course). Three times flying helicopters and once flying an airplane... If that happens, it is a good idea to contact ATC and confirm there is no TFR. Two of the times, after asking ATC the pertinent question, I was asked to remain in the area to report more information about the fire (size, location, whether it was growing in intensity, etc...). So while it is a good idea to avoid them, it wouldn't hurt to be a good Samaritan - if you're following the rules... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ca_flyer Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 I do photo tours in CA and I've seen a couple fires here and there. Always reported them to ATC, though they never asked me to stay and report on it, which would have been kind of awkward with passengers in the back. Luckily my area of california isn't really on fire at the moment, but you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted November 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 I loved the shot of Carson's S-61 snorkleing out of a Dough-Boy....NICE! R91 I saw that one too...great shot ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 I loved the shot of Carson's S-61 snorkleing out of a Dough-Boy....NICE! R91 I saw that one too...great shot ! Well, Post it. I wanna see it too! Pleeze? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted November 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Well, Post it. I wanna see it too!Pleeze? Witch- sorry it was a TV shot, not a still. Basically the guy had a small above ground pool out away from his house. The fire was burning uphill towards his house and the Carson 61 came in, hovered over his pool, sucked up all his water in 3 or 4 fills, and put out the fire threatening his house. Thats what I call preparation. The turn arounds were about 30 seconds each, so he put a lot of water on that fire in a short time and our KCAL9 was there to catch it on video...good stuff. Rob- LACFD is always on 02, but they are also talking on 3 other radios, so sometimes you have to call them 2 or 3 times to get their attention. I love seeing those wig wag anti collision lights coming at me !! Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Hey Witch, Don't take this the wrong way....... But when Goldy posted this, the first thing that popped into my head was...... Witch, flying his R-22 over the fire with a couple super soaker squirt guns duct taped to the skids fighting the fire. Don't know why. Anyway, don't hate me, its all in fun. Clark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Goldy, I have always been under the impression that TFR's are not immediate but rather have to be posted by the FAA. It is up to the pilots to have the most current information on TFR's. Checking the FAA TFR site is not enough, one must call the FSS for most current TFR's. Until one is posted it is still legal to fly near the fire. I fly out to Catalina all the time. Last June was the fire on the island. We were flying until the TFR posted then shut down. Once the fire was mostly contained we got permission to enter the TFR for our flights and shared the heliport with County and City Fire. Unless I am mistaken it's not in violation to fly near a fire if there is no TFR up yet. Even then, you can get permission to enter if you need to. When I flew in San Diego I spoted several fires 2 years ago and reported to the local tower who in turn sent out the SD County FD 412's. So I agree we should be vigilant and report things out of the ordinary. JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helihead Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 (edited) While working on the Sawmill Complex this summer we had an R44 fly low level directly over our helibase. While the helibase was outside the TFR, none of us were too happy to have to worry about dodging low level aircraft while transitioning to and from the helibase with external loads. My advise to to stay as far away from any active fires as possible. Also, if you see a fire that wasn't covered by a TFR, it might be a new start and most likely there will be initial attack aircraft working it so give it a wide berth as well. Edited June 15, 2008 by Helihead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted November 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Goldy, I have always been under the impression that TFR's are not immediate but rather have to be posted by the FAA. It is up to the pilots to have the most current information on TFR's. Checking the FAA TFR site is not enough, one must call the FSS for most current TFR's. Until one is posted it is still legal to fly near the fire. Unless I am mistaken it's not in violation to fly near a fire if there is no TFR up yet. Even then, you can get permission to enter if you need to.JD JD< I think you are at least half right. Here's the problem with flying near an active fire. The TFR's are immediate, they go into effect the second they get posted. If you get FSS blessing and 5 minutes later a TFR rolls out, you are left holding the bag. Knowing that these TFR's are immediate, and obviously seeing a large brush fire, with 21 active aircraft I might add, would certainly be evidence enough that you should have known better, now hand me your ticket !! Here's a link to one of the TFR's that went into effect last week. Notice the wording...immediate...as in right now. If you're airborne, too damn bad, it's up to the PIC to know it all. Of course, you can always call FSS or check on 123.025, they may let you pass, or at least clue you in to whats going on. I find in LA, the public safety ships are most helpful, reminding you of baseball game TFR's, ,etc. Just 2 weeks ago I had a very suspicious occurrence and was able to get County Fire to roll an LASD ship...all on .02. Here's that link. http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?Co...8&Dynamic=1 With that said, Catalina is one I have never flown into. Some day I'll take the 44 over, used to go there all the time when I had a sportfisher. Maybe see you around LA sometime. Fly safe, Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-38 Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 So I'm at home watching the Malibu fire rage out of control over the weekend. About 10am Saturday morning, during live TV coverage of the aircraft fighting the brush fire, in flies an R22....right into the fire area. The local TV channel zoomed in on his tail number (nice job there, Larry). They actually had to call off the airdrops because of this ship. In case there is any new pilots out there reading this, there is an immediate TFR, usually up to 3Mi and 3000AGL over any active fire to protect firefighting efforts. Just don't go near one. period. Needless to say, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. So which one of you was it ? Anyway, if you were flying over Malibu in a R22 with a tail number starting with N5 last Saturday, I would be on a plane to Antartica right now. In fact, on behalf of the helicopter community, I would like to put you on that plane....preferably horizontally. Here's a link to the TFR http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?Content...ff521184c8& FLY SAFE..CHECK FOR TFR's! GoldyEver determine who was operating the R-22 in question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted November 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Ever determine who was operating the R-22 in question? I'll leave that to the FAA.. .I cant do everything ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Hey Witch, Don't take this the wrong way....... But when Goldy posted this, the first thing that popped into my head was...... Witch, flying his R-22 over the fire with a couple super soaker squirt guns duct taped to the skids fighting the fire. Clark I will take it the wrong way because I didn't think of it first. I'll take it to the next level and add water balloons with foam and gatorade. Seriously, the more absurd, the better. Later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Forgot to mention, look in Part 91 where it talks about TFR's..nothing in there says anything about a certain amount of notice required before going into effect. Just another great reason to keep your eyes open and/or use flight following. PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents Subpart B--Flight Rules Sec. 91.137 Temporary flight restrictions in the vicinity of disaster/hazard areas. (a) The Administrator will issue a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) designating an area within which temporary flight restrictions apply and specifying the hazard or condition requiring their imposition, whenever he determines it is necessary in order to-- (1) Protect persons and property on the surface or in the air from a hazard associated with an incident on the surface; (2) Provide a safe environment for the operation of disaster relief aircraft; or (3) Prevent an unsafe congestion of sightseeing and other aircraft above an incident or event which may generate a high degree of public interest. The Notice to Airmen will specify the hazard or condition that requires the imposition of temporary flight restrictions. ( When a NOTAM has been issued under paragraph (a)(1) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft within the designated area unless that aircraft is participating in the hazard relief activities and is being operated under the direction of the official in charge of on scene emergency response activities. © When a NOTAM has been issued under paragraph (a)(2) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft within the designated area blah, blah...no notice required..just bang your it. Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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