State of the job market for new CFI's....

[AdminLB]

Howdy yall,

 

Over the years, I have taken the occasion to write opinions on the state of the job market and some of the dynamics that are driving it. Last week, in another forum, someone asked what we thought he could expect when he came out of flight school in 12-18 months as a new CFI. I gave an initial reply upon which he asked for an elaboration. I thought I might post my "twisted theory" here to see what your opinions are on the issue -OR- just to share with those who might have an interest in the subject.

 

His Question: "I am going to start at bristow in January and I am nerves about quitting a high paying job I hate, to do something I would enjoy. is there going to be any jobs?"

 

My Reply:

 

I think there are three stages to gainful employment for a civilian pilot.

 

1. Training stage - 0 - 200 hours.

2. Mama's milk on the lips stage - 201 hours to 1000 hours - this is your first job as a CFI.

3. Baby meets the real world stage - 1001 hours and up. Tours, GOM, Logging CP

 

In my humble opinion, stage two has become the hardest and most competitive stage for the pilot to get through. It did not used to be that way. It used to be stage 3 was the deal killer for many. My how times have changed.

 

MY TWISTED THEORY and elaboration:

 

I think that GETTING the first CFI job may be the toughest task for the "average" guy in the future. The "above average" guy will get snapped up by the school that trained him/her if the timing is right for the school.

 

Here is a theory that I have.

 

Point 1 - I believe that 90% of the people entering helicopter flight schools at the moment have aspirations of becoming a career pilot, they are not doing it for recreation.

 

Point 2 - I do not have the exact numbers, but if you took all of the pilots in civilian helicopter flight training RIGHT NOW who have their sights set on CFII = job, that number is probably higher than it has ever been in history. The single biggest driving factor for the swelling of the student ranks across the industry in the last 2-3 years is no doubt due to the SSH marketing model.

 

Point 3 - Based on my experience, AT LEAST 75% of the people who enter into "career" flight training should be able to reach their goal of completion.

 

Point 4 - It is also a fact that any school training students in bulk will not be able to give all graduates a job. Furthermore, if there is a job to be offered to someone finishing up training, usually only the top candidates will be offered a job. "Average" candidates will be sent packing.

 

Point 5 - Let's try and guess some rough estimates on numbers.

 

How many helicopter training schools are there in the US? I say 75 - 100.

 

How many helicopter CFI position are there at those schools? I say it varies from 350 - 500.

 

How many people are in "career" heli pilot training programs? I say 3000 - 3500.

 

It typically takes 12 - 18 months for a CFI position to turnover.....meaning, a guy gets his 1000 hours and heads off to the GOM or tours.

 

What happens if 2500 of those pilots in career training make it out with a CFII ticket in the next 12 - 18 months? Not all of the present 350 - 500 jobs will be available at once. There could be a big pile of CFII's competing for few available jobs. Only the best and most qualified CFII's will be scooped up first. They will need to be total packages to compete - R22, R44 time, CFII, and Robinson Safety Course at a minimum.

 

If you assume that the SSH marketing model is not sustainable, then the bulge in excess CFII's will fix itself over time (3-5 years) as they will be absorbed into jobs because of the typical and inevitable turnover of CFI positions. On the other hand - if the SSH marketing model is sustainable and large classes continue to be created virtually overnight, then times will be tough trying to find that first teaching job.

 

I think that before the SSH marketing model came along there was near equallibrium. But with the advent of that new marketing model (revolutionary to the helicopter training world) and a mechanism for students to have easy access to funding, we have seen a swell in the civilian student population in a very short period of time for the likes of which has never been witnessed.

 

Now here is the funny thing. IMHO, these recent swelling in numbers in the training world, will still not make a dent in the number of pilots needed to fill all of the positions beyond the flight training bubble.

 

In my opinion, this whole phenomenon further illustrates the total quirkyness of the aviation industry. How is it that we could be having two OPPOSITE supply vs. demand scenarios in one industry?

 

200 - 1000 hour pilots = fat supply, even demand

1000 + hour pilots = high demand - supply teetering on the edge of keeping pace.

 

Obviously my stats are broad, but I think they are good for the sake of illustration.

END

 

Shoot holes in my theory - Anyone?

 

Regards,

Lyn

[Chi-town]

Lyn,

 

My experience as an instructor and talking with other instructors from the big schools like SSH, Bristow, and Mazzei's shows that maybe 1 in 8 career applicants actually make it to CFI. The problem with the system is that there are a lot of good sticks out there who would be great commercial pilots, they just can't teach the stuff.

 

The hurdle remains the same: the 1000 hour insurance requirement.

 

The SSH marketing model may bring in 100s of students each quarter, but I would say the percentage of those making it all the way through is less than 10%. Reduce the percentage for your 18-month window.

 

Is this research just to kill time in between flights or are you brainstorming a solution?

[edspilot]

I would say that this is a very good look into the current and near fuure of the helicopter industry.

 

Excellent thought process.

 

I find myself at age 53 in that middle stage and the only thing going for me is that I have 2 aviation degrees (BS & MS) and 3800 hours fixed-wing and I have already (long-ago) did my transition into CFI helicopters and a retirement check. I am just now getting back into the helicopter flying and currently doing a flight review. I'll only have 100 hours in helicopters when I finish in a week or so. I did all of my training back when in a Bell 47G.

 

My problem is that I am going to be tied to the Swchweizer 300 series and there are not as many jobs for CFIs in them as there are not as many 300s being used for teaching, as Robinson. So for me to move into the Robinson I'd have to buy another 100 or so Robinson hours before I could do anything, maybe buy one and then trying to get insured will be expensive.

 

One might ask, why I did not go into helicopters back when I learned to fly (1973). Reason, is that there were almost no jobs to be had and no helicopter schools around remember, the end of the Vietnam war was dumping hunderds or thousands of trained & qualified helicopter pilots into the civilian market. Therefore, I started out in fixed-wing and later in 84 transitioned into rotor. At that time I was raising a family and could not take the pay cut to start out on the bottom again.

 

Now retired, I'm getting current again in helicopters for a retirement job but do not "need" the job to survive.

 

Did not mean to hi-jack the post, just wanted to add my past and agree with you.

 

Sorry for rambling but from a person having been around the aviation industry for 35 years and the former National Aviation Safety Officer for U.S. Customs Service's Aviation Program for 3 1/2 years, you are "RIGHT ON."

 

Thanks for putting it into words.

 

edspilot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Howdy yall,

 

Over the years, I have taken the occasion to write opinions on the state of the job market and some of the dynamics that are driving it. Last week, in another forum, someone asked what we thought he could expect when he came out of flight school in 12-18 months as a new CFI. I gave an initial reply upon which he asked for an elaboration. I thought I might post my "twisted theory" here to see what your opinions are on the issue -OR- just to share with those who might have an interest in the subject.

 

His Question: "I am going to start at bristow in January and I am nerves about quitting a high paying job I hate, to do something I would enjoy. is there going to be any jobs?"

 

My Reply:

 

I think there are three stages to gainful employment for a civilian pilot.

 

1. Training stage - 0 - 200 hours.

2. Mama's milk on the lips stage - 201 hours to 1000 hours - this is your first job as a CFI.

3. Baby meets the real world stage - 1001 hours and up. Tours, GOM, Logging CP

 

In my humble opinion, stage two has become the hardest and most competitive stage for the pilot to get through. It did not used to be that way. It used to be stage 3 was the deal killer for many. My how times have changed.

 

MY TWISTED THEORY and elaboration:

 

I think that GETTING the first CFI job may be the toughest task for the "average" guy in the future. The "above average" guy will get snapped up by the school that trained him/her if the timing is right for the school.

 

Here is a theory that I have.

 

Point 1 - I believe that 90% of the people entering helicopter flight schools at the moment have aspirations of becoming a career pilot, they are not doing it for recreation.

 

Point 2 - I do not have the exact numbers, but if you took all of the pilots in civilian helicopter flight training RIGHT NOW who have their sights set on CFII = job, that number is probably higher than it has ever been in history. The single biggest driving factor for the swelling of the student ranks across the industry in the last 2-3 years is no doubt due to the SSH marketing model.

 

Point 3 - Based on my experience, AT LEAST 75% of the people who enter into "career" flight training should be able to reach their goal of completion.

 

Point 4 - It is also a fact that any school training students in bulk will not be able to give all graduates a job. Furthermore, if there is a job to be offered to someone finishing up training, usually only the top candidates will be offered a job. "Average" candidates will be sent packing.

 

Point 5 - Let's try and guess some rough estimates on numbers.

 

How many helicopter training schools are there in the US? I say 75 - 100.

 

How many helicopter CFI position are there at those schools? I say it varies from 350 - 500.

 

How many people are in "career" heli pilot training programs? I say 3000 - 3500.

 

It typically takes 12 - 18 months for a CFI position to turnover.....meaning, a guy gets his 1000 hours and heads off to the GOM or tours.

 

What happens if 2500 of those pilots in career training make it out with a CFII ticket in the next 12 - 18 months? Not all of the present 350 - 500 jobs will be available at once. There could be a big pile of CFII's competing for few available jobs. Only the best and most qualified CFII's will be scooped up first. They will need to be total packages to compete - R22, R44 time, CFII, and Robinson Safety Course at a minimum.

 

If you assume that the SSH marketing model is not sustainable, then the bulge in excess CFII's will fix itself over time (3-5 years) as they will be absorbed into jobs because of the typical and inevitable turnover of CFI positions. On the other hand - if the SSH marketing model is sustainable and large classes continue to be created virtually overnight, then times will be tough trying to find that first teaching job.

 

I think that before the SSH marketing model came along there was near equallibrium. But with the advent of that new marketing model (revolutionary to the helicopter training world) and a mechanism for students to have easy access to funding, we have seen a swell in the civilian student population in a very short period of time for the likes of which has never been witnessed.

 

Now here is the funny thing. IMHO, these recent swelling in numbers in the training world, will still not make a dent in the number of pilots needed to fill all of the positions beyond the flight training bubble.

 

In my opinion, this whole phenomenon further illustrates the total quirkyness of the aviation industry. How is it that we could be having two OPPOSITE supply vs. demand scenarios in one industry?

 

200 - 1000 hour pilots = fat supply, even demand

1000 + hour pilots = high demand - supply teetering on the edge of keeping pace.

 

Obviously my stats are broad, but I think they are good for the sake of illustration.

END

 

Shoot holes in my theory - Anyone?

 

Regards,

Lyn

[Pogue]

Just a couple of thoughts -

 

1. How many pilots were hired out of CFI/CFII positions into the "industry" last year? I believe that number is suprisingly low. A medium size school with a couple hundred students may only have 12 pilots move on to GOM/Tours/Utility.

 

2. I think 75% is a very high number for those who make it to CFI. Assuming that the 90% of people starting training have career aspirations (sounds right to me) I think a large percentage change their minds along the way.

 

3. As far as the Silver State marketing model goes, I agree that's probably pushed the numbers up, but I'd be very interested in seeing the actual number of pilots graduating from their program (after doing their CFI time) and joining the real world. They bring a lot of people into their program, but they also seem to run a lot of people out. I think a lot fewer people actually turn professional than you would expect given the number of schools/locations they run.

 

So basically, I think you're way high on that 75% completing the program. I also think that the amount of time it takes to get that magic 1000 hours is routinely under estimated. Sure if you get hired on at a big school you may be able to do it in a year, but most pilots will end up working for smaller schools and will be carrying fewer students at a time. I don't think two to three years is out of the question to get 1000 hours.

[AdminLB]

The SSH marketing model may bring in 100s of students each quarter, but I would say the percentage of those making it all the way through is less than 10%. Reduce the percentage for your 18-month window.

 

Is this research just to kill time in between flights or are you brainstorming a solution?

 

I am not sure if I can bite off on the 10% number. I think in general it has to be higher and it depends on the type of student you are looking at. Each type has different levels of motivation and commitment.

 

1. Student local to school doing the pay as you go routine. This type could very well be a 10 percenter as it is easier to give it a try, then just drop out and fade away.

 

2. Student who travels to and lives in the area of the school and takes on a full time pro pilot course. These folks are the MOST likely people to finish and I bet the % is high. These people are motivated. They do all the research on schools, financing, and make a huge commitment when they pack up and head for flight training.

 

3. Local student picked up through a seminar and is locked into a contract. I have mixed feelings on this and have no idea on the numbers. My guess is that the numbers are all over the place depending on the location and the person. Some will be driven by the idea of becoming a career pilot and will see it through. Some may have lackluster motivation, but stay commited because they are locked into a loan. Some realize that it is not for them and bail at whatever the cost to them. And some are just sorry enough to walk away with no clue of the consequences. My guess it that the number is between your 10% and my 75%.

 

No, not brainstorming. My brain don't "storm" no more! It was just a response to a question that I gave to someone in another forum. I put the question in my headbone and thunk on it for a while and that is what came out. Some of the numbers though are loosely based on some data that I have, or have seen.

 

Just talkin is all.

 

Lyn

[Falko]

Another problem for new CFIIs / CFIs what I think is the pathfinder insurance (300TT).

More and more companies switching over to pathfinder, which makes it even harder for new flight instrucor to get a job.

In my case when i finished my CFII after 8months with 205TT I had no more money to efford another 95 hrs.....thanks good I got a job.

 

Plus lots of flight schools raised their prices over the couple years.....so every new student needs to take a bigger loan - > higher rate of interest -> grater chance to not be able to pay off the loan off during the first job .....

 

It also seems like that you need to get your CFII anyway to be in the position to get hired

 

Falko

[Helo-Pilot]

Its strange to see that as the number of pilots for positions in the industry goes down, the requirements for new pilots goes up. This makes the leap from CFI/CFII to a tour pilot, or GOM pilot even tougher. (I understand that insurance companies are currently setting the standards for our industry.)

 

I have always wondered why helicopter companies here in the states have not set up some sort of mentoring program for qualified, low time pilots (<1000hrs). It seems to me that a company could offer up a free seat to a Commercial, CFI/CFII from a local school to help them get an introduction to a more complex aircraft, while on a ferry flight. NO initial training! The end result will be some real world experience, a good introduction to a different aircraft, and a good reputation for trying to better the industry.

[Pogue]

2. Student who travels to and lives in the area of the school and takes on a full time pro pilot course. These folks are the MOST likely people to finish and I bet the % is high. These people are motivated. They do all the research on schools, financing, and make a huge commitment when they pack up and head for flight training.

 

Given SSH's reputation, I have to wonder what their percentage is of people who travel to go full time is. I think they pick up more local market and seminar people who limit their research to "local". People who are relocating for a school are probably going to research their options a bit more and for a full time professional pilot program there's a number of good programs to compete. Yes, that group will have a high success rate, but just how big is it? When I selected a school I evaluated several including Silver State, and quite frankly their advertised program didn't compete with other medium to large schools, even though there are multiple locations in the area.

 

Overall though, I agree with your line of reasoning - the full time committed student is the one most likely to complete the program, I just think that is going to be across the industry.

[AdminLB]

I have always wondered why helicopter companies here in the states have not set up some sort of mentoring program for qualified, low time pilots (

 

First, for any one in the business of helicopters, there are only 2 types of flights: revenue and non-revenue. Ferry and maintenance flights would be considered to be non-revenue flights and if you are doing it right will be a very small portion of hours flown...like 1-3%. To further break it down, maintenance flights will be short and an operator will not want to spend time trying to coordinate locating a young pilot for a couple track and balance runs. They want to get the rotors turning $$ as quickly as possible.

 

So if there are very few ferry flights (if any) and very few maint flights this just leaves revenue flights.

 

If you look across the board there are a pile of reasons why a "free seat" cannot be given to new pilots on revenue flights:

 

Part 135 will not allow it. There goes a big chunk of working aircraft.

Insurance will not allow it - especially from the standpoint of manipulating the controls.

Max gross weights will not allow it.

Some operators need to sell that seat - i.e. tour operators.

Risk Management and liability may not allow it.

 

When it comes right down to it, when you cut out 97% of the helicopters who can not offer a free seat for practical, liability, financial, or legal reasons..........there ain't much left.

 

My 2c - Hope that makes sense.

 

Lyn

[lelebebbel]

imo, the whole problem is caused by the fact that even after spending 60-70k on flight school, a new pilot (like me) is still not qualified enough to be insurable.

I think the only long term solution would be to give more advanced real-life training to newcomers after they get their CPL ticket, to produce insurable pilots with less than 1000hrs.

This training would have to be somehow sponsored by a commercial operator who needs pilots. Of course the student would have to sign some sort of a contract, and maybe even pay for part of the training time later through his paychecks.

 

There is a good article about the 200-1000h part in the latest Vertical mag issue. One good point in that article: the military somehow manages to produce 350hr pilots that can go out there and fly real missions. It should be possible to do the same thing in the civilian world.

Edited December 11, 2007 by lelebebbel

[permison]

imo, the whole problem is caused by the fact that even after spending 60-70k on flight school, a new pilot (like me) is still not qualified enough to be insurable.

I think the only long term solution would be to give more advanced real-life training to newcomers after they get their CPL ticket, to produce insurable pilots with less than 1000hrs.

This training would have to be somehow sponsored by a commercial operator who needs pilots. Of course the student would have to sign some sort of a contract, and maybe even pay for part of the training time later through his paychecks.

 

There is a good article about the 200-1000h part in the latest Vertical mag issue. One good point in that article: the military somehow manages to produce 350hr pilots that can go out there and fly real missions. It should be possible to do the same thing in the civilian world.

 

Wasn't there a deal announced recently with bristo helicopters or some other school in Fl that is working with one of the GOM companies for this very reason?

[Chi-town]

The reason the military can put a 200 hour pilot in the seat of a blackhawk to do missions is that the pilot is sitting SIC to a PIC with over 1000 hours (but usually even more). Those pilots have to sit SIC until they are selected by the senior pilots for a checkride authorizing them to be PIC. It's very regimented and works well. It would be possible to do in companies with two-pilot aircraft, but this system does cost the company time and money.

 

Lyn,

 

I would add that the majority of CFIs I have interviewed for positions have fallen seriously short of the skills I'd expect for a CFI. CFI's with hundreds of hours of instruction with no checkride sign-offs! CFIs that have signed off solo students but have never taught them how to do an autorotation (!!!!)

 

So I think there is an issue of a lot of CFIs and not a lot of students (as financing gets tougher), but the quality of CFIs is also seriously lacking. I will say that the good ones get picked up fairly quickly, but an employer better be ready to conduct plenty "non-revenue" flights if they hire the sub-par instructors that have flooded the industry.

[verbatim03]

Soo... it seems a low time CFI candidate, with all their time in a helicopter other than the R-22, and no real natural knack for teaching is basically up a creek without a paddle?

[Helo-Pilot]

Good point Chi-Town.

 

Do you think that part of the problem lies with the fact that this business starts with low time, relatively inexperienced pilots training other newbies?

 

lelebebbel made a coment about a Vertical mag article. In one of the last few issues, there was an article about the Canadian industry, and how they try to get some pilots into programs where the are allowed to come in and start learning the industry, and eventually start building 'real-world' experience. They are required to sign a contract saying they will stay with them for X # of years, and in return they get a job.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Helo-Pilot

[Chi-town]

Helo-pilot,

 

I think low-time instructors can be very good teachers as long as they've had good training, are mentally mature, and have good decision-making skills. Obviously, they won't be as good as some 5,000 hour instructor but we have to deal with reality and the U.S. system. Senior instructors and school owners need to be able to mentor the young instructors and help them along-it's in their best interest.

 

The Canadian system has it's own problems as well: Pricey, lots of low-hour pilots sweeping hangars and begging for the odd flight (the lack of a structured time-building system I think is haphazard and has little quality control), and of course the hiring of foreign pilots because there aren't enough qualified canadian pilots.

 

I just think we can't rely on the FAA to be quality control for our industry. There has to be an organized (an efficient) mentoring/quality control system in place that the insurance companies will be able to recognize. Kind of like how Doctors get board-certified. This way, we can use more factors than just hours-acquired to help the insurance companies decide which pilots pose less of a liability.

[Helo-Pilot]

I agree that low time instructors CAN be good instructors.

 

The problem, I think, is that we are getting alot of younger guys in here that, I am sorry to say, have not got a good sense of judgement. The evidence is clear in the youtube and liveleak video's out there. Some of these video's are legal, but the end result is the damage done to public perception (Is it just me or does that not sound right?). The sense of resposibility is just not there sometimes for younger instructors and pilots. There needs to be a solid foundation of safety and awareness, as well as devotion to the industry as a whole, instilled into these up-and-comers. We are all going to be victims of our own demise if we dont start working on improving industry safety, and public perception by making smarter, 'freindlier' decisions.

 

Granted, I am not a multi-thousand hour wonder, but I believe that my age and integrity have given me an edge at times. I long ago learned that there are times when I should just close my mouth and watch what happens. I know that I do not know everything, and I know that I have alot to learn, even from a fellow CFI that is much younger than me.

 

We should all take the time to try to make a lasting impression on our peers, and on those that we teach, about the obligation that comes along with a license. While it does sound like a cliche', a license is a license to learn, and should be treated as such. Any license should also be a license to teach. When you are at Christmas party this year, and someone asks what you do, remember that you are representing the industry. Be positive, and act like a proffesional. Give an intellegent answer to questions, and leave them with a positive impression about the industry and about pilots.

 

 

Sorry for the rant, but there have been many times that I have heard pilots talking 'smack' and the look on peoples faces screams 'WTF' ! ! !

Edited December 12, 2007 by Helo-Pilot

[Rogue]

"2. Student who travels to and lives in the area of the school and takes on a full time pro pilot course. These folks are the MOST likely people to finish and I bet the % is high. These people are motivated. They do all the research on schools, financing, and make a huge commitment when they pack up and head for flight training."

 

As a prospective student myself, looking at making a career change - this would be what I would do. The state of the job market and making the jumps from student to cfi ( or other ) to GOM ( or other ) is major concern of mine, as I have bills to pay like everyone else. On one hand I see it as a good way to weed out the weak but on the other hand if pilots are to be in short supply as advertised then its kind of dumb. I don't see why student graduates couldn't be picked up as a SIC and slowly build hours in real world situations - that makes perfect sense to me. Frankly the idea of being trained by someone who just finished training themselves is somewhat appalling ( not that it isn't possible for a low hour pilot to be a good teacher ). It would seem to me that it would be a lot better system if you had to have a 1000 hours to teach at a school. Let the rich oil companies pay a little more for services and let the student graduates build hours that way. I think maybe this is what Bristow may be up to from what I've read? Facing facts, pilots are either like GOM work or they're not, since most pilots just use the GOM to build hours anyways because they don't particularly like the job why not have co-op GOM training program?! The pilots who like gulf work can be recruited from within and those who don't can go on to teach or whatever. Seems pretty simple to me but like everything else in life, if it only were simple.

 

My inexperienced two cents worth.

 

PS -"I am going to start at bristow in xxxx and I am nerves about quitting a high paying job I hate, to do something I would enjoy. is there going to be any jobs?" - this applies to me.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Rogue

[captkirkyota]

Anyone else find this to be "sketchy" ? I just recently learned that while yes you only need 200 hours to be a qualified R22 pilot, but have to have 300 hours to be insurable by the "cheapest" insurance company, that just so happens to be owned by Frank's brother! Seems quite ummm, yeah.

 

I have wondered for a while now if what works very well for the trucking companies would not work for Heli companies. You are offered at 200 hours or whatever to be hired on with say a GOM company, cuz really at this point in time they will be the only ones who can afford to try this and see if it would work, they will let you fly with a pilot in a ship that has dual controls, but not necessarily a ship needing 2 pilots. YOU fly while the pilot is there to help and teach you.

 

As long as you stay with the company they will make your school payment for you as part of your salary for the first 500 hours, then make it for you on top of your salary for as long as you are with them.(IE 50k is starting salary, minus your $700x12 months = $8,400 you will make 41k a year, which is way better than CFI and would motivate a guy to stick it out in the GOM for a while if he can possibly after 500 hours then get an $8,400 pay raise and if he decided to add that pay raise into his loan payment and double it up one could REALLY pay down that loan entirely in 3 years or so, maybe less if he's single.) This would also net companies a more stable pool of pilots and probably actually long term reduce costs due to less turn over. Maybe?

If you leave, then you assume your loan again. That is how it works in trucking.

 

I went to a school as a sponsor of a trucking company right from the get go. I would be hired by the school and they would pay for the school as long as I remained employed with them a minimum of 1 year in this case since trucking school was only about $6,000. If I left before the year I had to pay my remaining loan off.

 

Granted a Heli company could not afford to say they would pay 50-70k off for only one year of employment, maybe 3? or like I said they make the min. payment while your there as long as your there, you could then also make payments to get it paid down much faster.

 

Does this sound feasible or like a guy who is still a newb in the industry and should have just stuck to reading this thread only?

[Rogue]

"Does this sound feasible or like a guy who is still a newb in the industry and should have just stuck to reading this thread only?"

 

haha thats funny, I thought the same thing.

 

I agree with you a 100%. I don't want to be pessimistic or let the conspiracy theorist out but.... if there is such a need for pilots then yea why not some kind of tuition share or guarentee to get those butts in the seat. I don't think it should be easy to become a pilot; maybe acquire your commericial on your own then move to a co-op program from there. ehh... who knows. it probably won't change because that's just the way it is. i dunno... i just know that i'm a grown a$s man and begging for work just to get the hours seems pretty gay to me, i mean why should you have to risk going bankrupt just to become a pilot!?! that's retarded.

 

PS - and I'm very thankful for this site and its resources before I jumped in the deep end at $60k + that could be a very costly mistake

Edited December 15, 2007 by Rogue

[FLHooker]

lele,

 

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I walked out of Ft Rucker with only 140 hours, and of course not insurable. And because I didn't all my training with the civilian sector, I was actually having a difficult time finding a place that would take me on, do my CFI and employ me.

 

 

 

CHAD

[K-38]

IMHO I would not spend any more time thinking about reengineering the helicopter pilot career path. I would focus on being the best student at your training school because that is something YOU can control. Schools are still going to need new CFI's due to employe turnover. As Lyn said though the competition is becoming much more intense for those spots. The solution; make sure that when the management at your school begins thinking about how they are going to replace CFI J. Doe when he leaves your name is the one that comes up. Someone is going to get his spot what you need to be focused on is making yourself the best, and most logical choice. You have the advantage in this situation; they know you, they are familiar with your attitude, work ethic, and piloting abilities. You already know the SOP's of your school, and have demonstrated that you can adhere to them. Those are things they would be gambling on if the hired someone from another school. That guy somehow has to convince the management in a 30-minute interview that he has all those qualities. Not an easy thing to do. You on the other hand have an entire year of training to show them that you have what it takes, and that you would be a good fit for their team. Pathfinder will insure new CFI's at 200 hrs but at a rate of almost 4x as much as a 300 hundred hour guy. The way some schools over come this burden is by hiring you at 200 hrs, and insuring you only on the oldest 22 in their fleet (least expensive). You then instruct only in that ship until you reach 300 hrs. The school can then have the premiums reduced to the normal lower rates, and you can fly all the birds. Your goal is to show them during your training that you are worth the temporary cost increase because you are the best candidate for the position. You are a sure thing. My 2 cents.

[Rogue]

i hear ya on not reengineering but.... say in make believe because i don't have actual figures that a big school graduates 5 students every two months and one job opens every six months... umm... i'm not that good at math but.... 1 job 5 applicants who ALL gave it their ALL.... so what happens to other four with 60k loans to pay along with food, rent/mortgage, car insurance - I guess your answer to that is to pay their dues by pumping AVGAS that's retarded, i get what you're saying but ALL of us can't be the best don't take a scientist or mathmetician to figure that out.

[Rogue]

don't mean to come off as a jerk I know you were just giving you humble opinion but the status quo remains the status quo until it is challenged.

 

see if you can see the irony here - being a helicopter pilot means making sound decisions based on logical reasoning. now given the current state of training curriculum what person of sound mind would decide based on logical reasoning to invest $60k + to maybe possibly get a job in GOM after starving for years trying to make ends meet as a CFI if they can even get into a CFI without being the 2% of the best. So what that says to me is the helicopter industry wants to recruit people who make illogical irrational descisions and are willing to take big risks to get there?!!!?!!!? ain't that exactly the opposite what a pilot should be !!! hahaha if that's not retarded then I don't know what is !!!

 

peace out and thanks for all ya'lls good advice, Jeff

[captkirkyota]

Hers is something else to think about. If Frank gets his way and R22's are not used for training anymore one day, and another heli is not made to fill that low cost to operate hole and a 44 is used, now you will spend 120k to get a $20 per hr job to hope to someday get a 50k + . Yeah, THATS gonna happen. Guess 300 schools will start to be the majority at that point.

 

I BTW fit into that illogical decision equation you just described. I spent 6k to get a CDL at a school, worked for 9 months making an average of 55k right off the bat, then was able to purchase my own car hauling truck to immediately make over 130k plus a year for 7 years, to now go into 60k debt to make $20 per hour. Yes I've lost my mind.

Of course I am not doing this only for money, but because I want to enjoy what I do to make money, and that is not always something one can put a price on, at least not until maybe you actually can not make ends meet and have to bail from flying, but hopefully that happens to an extremely small portion of pilots.

Back to my instrument studies.

[Rogue]

I sincerely hope that it is the minority that have trouble getting jobs also. There are definetly more fiscally responsible decisions out there. It is just a question that I'm sure everyone who looks at possibly joining this industry has - are the transitions from student to CFI to a "real" job just leaps of faith? because they sure sound like it! but I guess if you put your life daily in the hands of some rotor blades moving some air around then you better get used to leaps of faith! ha I try to look at it from every angle, just trying to make sure I'm making a "sound" decision hahahaha BTW I got my CDL before the school days! learned on a suicide shift cabover Mack - now that is driving at its finest!