klas Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) I think you guys are twisting the facts here a bit. First off..no students, rated helo pilots only. Second, the pilot is a CFI, third, you don't ride along..you fly, fourth, most of these ships are owned by the pilot and leased at an hourly rate to the station. The extra money goes to that pilot quite often, or to the owner of the aircraft. In no case is the pilot making less because of the other pilot on board. ... I don't think anyone is twisting facts, & I understood all the facts as above, thanks - & your last sentence just confirms my contention. By the way, when I did it, the pilot was NOT a CFI. Edited January 10, 2008 by klas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkdriver Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I don't think anyone is twisting facts, & I understood all the facts as above, thanks - & your last sentence just confirms my contention. By the way, when I did it, the pilot was NOT a CFI. I clearly didn't understand. I was under the impression it was the pilot alone that was paying for the hours and doing the flying, "alone". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klas Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I clearly didn't understand. I was under the impression it was the pilot alone that was paying for the hours and doing the flying, "alone". Ah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bell206Pilot Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 I clearly didn't understand. I was under the impression it was the pilot alone that was paying for the hours and doing the flying, "alone". In most cases the "rated pilot" is always flying...there are always some exceptions here of course, but 99% of the time the "left seater" is doing the flying. The pilot is not alone or "solo" Sorry but there is NO WHERE you get a Bell 206 "solo" @ $170 or some dollar amount there abouts! Not to even mention the insurance issues with hours and such...another thread for that kinda nonsense. If they (the "rated pilot") were to buy time in a R-22 or a Bell 206 they would still be paying for their flight time.They are just given a chance fly an aircraft which is normally way out of the price range for someone who needs to build time early on. The "right seater" doesn't have to be a CFI as long as the pic is a rated pilot and has under gone the transition on the aircraft.If the leftie were not a rated pilot then it would be different all together of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliman500 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Bell206pilot, I think the time building programs with the ENG birds is a great opportuinty for the newly qualified pilot to build some real world experience. It certainly beets paying 200 bucks per hour to burn holes in the sky with an R22. I know because i remember when i did it, at the time it was the best 150 bucks per hour i ever spent. We spent several hours shooting approaches to Rose hills and the downtown LA rooftops But; I disagree with the fact that there does not need to be a CFI present. As mentioned earlier the regs clearly state a private rated pilot can NOT act as PIC of a revenue flight; in this case the commercial ENG operations. Sure he can ride along but can NOT log PIC time legally. However; If their is a CFI present at the controls serving as an instructor then the private rated pilot in the left seat will be able to log dual instruction received and PIC time. If i am wrong please correct me and quote the applicable reg.Fly Safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) Bell206pilot, I think the time building programs with the ENG birds is a great opportuinty for the newly qualified pilot to build some real world experience. It certainly beets paying 200 bucks per hour to burn holes in the sky with an R22. I know because i remember when i did it, at the time it was the best 150 bucks per hour i ever spent. We spent several hours shooting approaches to Rose hills and the downtown LA rooftops But; I disagree with the fact that there does not need to be a CFI present. As mentioned earlier the regs clearly state a private rated pilot can NOT act as PIC of a revenue flight; in this case the commercial ENG operations. Sure he can ride along but can NOT log PIC time legally. However; If their is a CFI present at the controls serving as an instructor then the private rated pilot in the left seat will be able to log dual instruction received and PIC time. If i am wrong please correct me and quote the applicable reg.Fly Safe! FAR 61.51 is the reference. There need be no CFI. A pilot who is rated in cat and class and type if require, can LOG PIC anytime they are sole manipulator of the controls. You have a commercially rated pilot in one seat ACTING as PIC, then a private pilot in the other seat acting as sole manipulator of the controls. In this case, the private pilot logs PIC. The Commercial pilot logs nothing even though they are acting as PIC. If they are a CFI and providing instruction, they can log PIC and dual given. Acting and logging PIC are completely different and just because you can do one doesn't mean you can do the other. And just to add to the Mini500 discussion, nothing prevents an experimental aircraft from being rented. It is only prohibited from carrying passengers or property for hire. Edited January 13, 2008 by RockyMountainPilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 the regs clearly state a private rated pilot can NOT act as PIC of a revenue flight; in this case the commercial ENG operations. Sure he can ride along but can NOT log PIC time legally. Ditto, the two are not the same....logging PIC and acting as PIC...good thread though. ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliman500 Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 Ditto, the two are not the same....logging PIC and acting as PIC...good thread though. ! I fully agree that logging and acting as PIC are not the same. However i still stand by my earlier statement above. If a private pilot is logging PIC time then they are essentially declaring that they were the PIC of that particular aircraft at that particular time....Correct?? In this case we are talking about a commercial revenue flight. If you declare that you were the Pilot in command (the sole manipulator of the controls) for any portion of that flight then you are basically shooting yourself in the foot. The reason why is because you are declaring that you were the PIC of a commercial revenue flight with an insufficient pilot rating ie not commercial; This is where the FAA could be violate you. Now if you turn around and say well i wasn't actually the PIC it was the commercially rated pilot next to me then they will ask: Well why did you declare yourself as Pilot in command? Then they will violate you for falsification of records. This is the way the FAA will see it...trust me i have had first hand experience with a similar case. May i remind you that the only person authorized to interpret the regs is the Federal administrator himself. The way i have told you above is the way i experienced it and the way the FAA saw it. I am not trying to slate this method of time building, i think it is a great opportunity and the best way to build time. Just be aware! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67november Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 I fully agree that logging and acting as PIC are not the same. However i still stand by my earlier statement above. If a private pilot is logging PIC time then they are essentially declaring that they were the PIC of that particular aircraft at that particular time....Correct?? ok from the regs this is what I interpret as accecptable a private pilot manipulating the controls of a commercial flight can log the time as dual time, as long as the PIC of that a/c is a CFI. correct me if I'm wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 I fully agree that logging and acting as PIC are not the same. However i still stand by my earlier statement above. If a private pilot is logging PIC time then they are essentially declaring that they were the PIC of that particular aircraft at that particular time....Correct?? In this case we are talking about a commercial revenue flight. If you declare that you were the Pilot in command (the sole manipulator of the controls) for any portion of that flight then you are basically shooting yourself in the foot. The reason why is because you are declaring that you were the PIC of a commercial revenue flight with an insufficient pilot rating ie not commercial; This is where the FAA could be violate you. Now if you turn around and say well i wasn't actually the PIC it was the commercially rated pilot next to me then they will ask: Well why did you declare yourself as Pilot in command? Then they will violate you for falsification of records. This is the way the FAA will see it...trust me i have had first hand experience with a similar case. May i remind you that the only person authorized to interpret the regs is the Federal administrator himself. The way i have told you above is the way i experienced it and the way the FAA saw it. I am not trying to slate this method of time building, i think it is a great opportunity and the best way to build time. Just be aware! Actually, only a Chief Council can interpret the regulations. The Administrator cannot interpret the regulations. The Administrator is like the executive branch. They create the laws, but the judicial branch interprets them. I am assuming you are using the word declare to mean that you are declaring to be the ACTING PIC. To better explain yourself, please always define the term term PIC with acting or logging. Logging time as PIC is NOT declaring yourself as acting PIC unless you don't happen to be sole manipulator. And it is not illegal to log PIC time for time that you are not acting as PIC. And it might be illegal to log time as PIC for time that you were acting PIC. If the commercial pilot who is acting PIC is not a CFI, then they cannot log PIC even though they were acting as PIC. If you take your none rated friend up for a flight and you are not a CFI, then you cannot log anytime as PIC that they are flying, even though you are acting as PIC the entire flight. This is because there is no such provision to log the time in the FAR's. If you can find a different interpretation by the Chief Council, please go ahead and post a link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 ok from the regs this is what I interpret as accecptable a private pilot manipulating the controls of a commercial flight can log the time as dual time, as long as the PIC of that a/c is a CFI. correct me if I'm wrong This is correct. They log dual and PIC because they are the sole manipulator of the controls for which the aircraft is rated. If the acting PIC is not a CFI, the private pilot still logs PIC because they are still the sole manipulator of the controls for which the aircraft is rated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67november Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 If the acting PIC is not a CFI, the private pilot still logs PIC because they are still the sole manipulator of the controls for which the aircraft is rated. If I'm interpreting the regs correctly, the PPL pilot can only log PIC if the flight is NON commerical, or under part 61.113 ( B ) (1)A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 If I'm interpreting the regs correctly, the PPL pilot can only log PIC if the flight is NON commerical, or under part 61.113 ( B ) (1)A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. No, this is incorrect. A private pilot may not ACT as PIC of an aircraft carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire. They can LOG PIC anytime they are sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft in which they are rated. Acting and logging PIC are two completely different things and do not relate to each other in any way. You may be able to LOG PIC and not be able to ACT as PIC, and you may be able to ACT as PIC and not be able to LOG PIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67november Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 OK that's understandable, kinda like the May and Shall iterpretations in the regs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.