lonewolf172 Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Hi all. I have a question and I hope someone here knows enough about FAA rules to answer it. I read a short post some where and I person who wrote it said something about NOT being able to use an Experiment Helicopter, say a Safari or Rotorway Talon, for hire and I'm assuming that's even inculding if you have a full helicopter pilots license. Can someone answer this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67november Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 here ya go FAR 21.191 Experimental certificates Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes: (a) Research and development. Testing new aircraft design concepts, new aircraft equipment, new aircraft installations, new aircraft operating techniques, or new uses for aircraft. ( Showing compliance with regulations. Conducting flight tests and other operations to show compliance with the airworthiness regulations including flights to show compliance for issuance of type and supplemental type certificates, flights to substantiate major design changes, and flights to show compliance with the function and reliability requirements of the regulations. © Crew training. Training of the applicant's flight crews. (d) Exhibition. Exhibiting the aircraft's flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics at air shows, motion picture, television, and similar productions, and the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying to and from such air shows and productions. (e) Air racing. Participating in air races, including (for such participants) practicing for such air races and flying to and from racing events. (f) Market surveys. Use of aircraft for purposes of conducting market surveys, sales demonstrations, and customer crew training only as provided in §21.195. (g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation. (h) Operating primary kit-built aircraft. Operating a primary category aircraft that meets the criteria of §21.24(a)(1) that was assembled by a person from a kit manufactured by the holder of a production certificate for that kit, without the supervision and quality control of the production certificate holder under §21.184(a). (i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that— (1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate and does not meet the provisions of §103.1 of this chapter. An experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph for these aircraft after January 31, 2008; (2) Has been assembled— (i) From an aircraft kit for which the applicant can provide the information required by §21.193(e); and (ii) In accordance with manufacturer's assembly instructions that meet an applicable consensus standard; or (3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under §21.190. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 67NOVEMBER nailed it... It becomes a toy, not a work horse. You can't even do aerial photography in one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolf172 Posted January 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 So in short the answer is no. Yu can not use it to start say a aerial photography or crop dusting business. That sucks. Like the person before me it just becames an EXPENSIVE toy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 You can use an experimental for crop dusting, logging, etc. SINGLE CREW. In some cases...i.e. the OH58 and Huey, etc. The problem is except for crew training, you can't have anyone in the other seat. You will not be doing any real work in a rotorway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolf172 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 You can use an experimental for crop dusting, logging, etc. SINGLE CREW. In some cases...i.e. the OH58 and Huey, etc. The problem is except for crew training, you can't have anyone in the other seat. You will not be doing any real work in a rotorway. Now I'm a little confused. Let me put it this way. I would like to get either a Safari or Rotorway and start my own business doing aerial photography/crop dusting. Can I do this provided either is airworthy cert. and I have a full pilots (helicopter) license? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) Short answer.... NO you cannot use rotorway or safari to spray for $$.. The OH58 and Huey's are not experimental.... those aircraft are certified in the RESTRICTED category for those operations..... Aerial photo's is a different bug.... who is taking the photos?? If it is you while you fly then you could pull that in an experimental.(even that is riddled with problems and might be a no depending on who you ask).. if you're taking someone else ..ie the photographer.... FAA won't let that fly. Edited January 10, 2008 by apiaguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Short answer.... NO you cannot use rotorway or safari to spray for $$.. The OH58 and Huey's are not experimental.... those aircraft are certified in the RESTRICTED category for those operations..... Aerial photo's is a different bug.... who is taking the photos?? If it is you while you fly then you could pull that in an experimental.(even that is riddled with problems and might be a no depending on who you ask).. if you're taking someone else ..ie the photographer.... FAA won't let that fly. Correct...that's what I meant to say. Thanks for cleaning up my post. My bad. john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Even if you could use a rotorway or safari to crop dust, how much could they possibly carry? A quart of chemical? They can barely get themselves off the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darwin Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 It would appear that the Safari holds 30 gals of spray. http://www.acehelicopter.com/products/spray/spray.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolf172 Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Short answer.... NO you cannot use rotorway or safari to spray for $$.. The OH58 and Huey's are not experimental.... those aircraft are certified in the RESTRICTED category for those operations..... Aerial photo's is a different bug.... who is taking the photos?? If it is you while you fly then you could pull that in an experimental.(even that is riddled with problems and might be a no depending on who you ask).. if you're taking someone else ..ie the photographer.... FAA won't let that fly. My idea was to equip the Safari or Rotorway (enclosed under fuse) with a remote video (CCTV) camera coupled to a computer for storing the images and small LCD video screen. So I would be the only one in the helicopter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 You could do that.... the only problem I could forsee would be about the limitation of experimental aircraft operating over populated areas. So you're out there filming for some contract... an annoyed neighbor calls in to complain about the noisy helicopter and the FAA gives you a call... "uhh, gee, we looked up the tail number on your aircraft.. it says it's experimental... what were you doing circling around at low altitude over there?" "oh, I was filming for a customer" "hmm"Later you get a notice in the mail saying you've violated the FAR's by flying over a populated area in an experimental aircraft. They might not bust you for the photo flight.... that was legal... but they'll find a way to bust you if they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darwin Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) apiaguy; I knew there was a restriction on FAR 103 Ultralights operating above "congested areas"(FAR 103.15) but was unaware of a similar rule for experimental aircraft.Can you cite the specific FAR dealing with experimental aircraft and populated areas? Thanks. eta; im not sure if 30 gals is much as crop spraying goes.. but its likely more than an rmax will carry. Edited January 11, 2008 by darwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 § 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate— (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire. ( No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that— (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features. © Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce. (d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall— (1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft; (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and (3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers. (e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to— (1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309; or (2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010. (f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section. (g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for compensation or hire in an aircraft which that persons provides unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has— (1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA; or (2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter. (h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority. (1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time. (2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested. (i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darwin Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) apiaguy, thanks. FAR 91.319( c ) [frown] Edited January 11, 2008 by darwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotorWeed Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 OK, I have to ask. Why not just buy a real helicopter like a 47 or Hiller 12b or c? Experimental helicopters are just that, you are a test pilot every time the skids leave the ground. My 2c RW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolf172 Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) OK, I have to ask. Why not just buy a real helicopter like a 47 or Hiller 12b or c? Experimental helicopters are just that, you are a test pilot every time the skids leave the ground. My 2c RW Initial cost for one, operating and maintainence cost another. A new R22 cost $220,000 and even a used one is over $150,000. In the case of the Rotorway Talon you not only build the helicopter but also the engine, which under the Experimental Rules I could do all the schedule maintainence. Edited January 11, 2008 by lonewolf172 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtrhead71 Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Not for nothing...but have you given much thought to leasing a 300c for this? Or any other light helo for that matter. There are companies out there that do just this...and depending on how many hours you plan to fly a month, it could be very cost effective for you. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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