When to Sell Beta II???

[jabr800]

I'm looking for some ideas or thoughts on when to sell my Beta II.

I bought the Copter new in March 2000 and put all the goodies on it!

It has about 820 one owner hours since new. No training, just fun flying.

I don't want to get tied up in the 12 year overhaul that I'm facing in 51 months, so the question is, when do I best sell it? At 8 years, 9 years, 10 years, never?

I would like to keep my machine, but I think the economics may not be desirable much longer (the 12 year overhaul)!

I may replace it with another new Beta II but with the price increases over the past 8 years, I don't know if I can justify that decision.

By the way, I am familar, that as a Private owner, not in commercial use, I can go past 12 years if I haven't hit 2,200 hours, but our friends at Pathfinder Indeminity, won't insure me after that, because the copter will no longer be following the prescribed Robinson Maintaince procedures..

Second question, what's the best way to value this machine, on the retail market?

Thanks for any ideas!

 

Jeff A.

[mechanic]

I talked to the factory a little over a year ago about overhauling a used machine. The price back then for a 12 yr machine in flyable condition with good hours left and no corriosion would cost approx $45 G's for the inspection.

 

Thats all I know, I never bought the machine I was looking at.

 

Later

[Goldy]

It has about 820 one owner hours since new. No training, just fun flying.

I don't want to get tied up in the 12 year overhaul that I'm facing in 51 months, so the question is, when do I best sell it? At 8 years, 9 years, 10 years, never?

 

Jeff A.

 

In two years you will have 1000 - 1100 hours on it and 2 years left of the 12. You have to sell it prior to this point to max the value. After that it starts to decline due to the looming 12 year run out. Its not worth spending 50 K for an inspection and still have old parts that have over 1000 hours on them.

 

I would rather spend 100K, get all new parts and have another 2200 hours. Besides, if you sell now, you will miss out on the appreciation of the R22 over the next two years. Look at how many price increases have occurred in the last 8 years, which has helped keep the value up.

 

A nice ship, timed out is still worth 50-60K.

 

Goldy

[slick1537]

I thought they were going to stop production on the r22 soon?

[RotorWeed]

I thought they were going to stop production on the r22 soon?

 

I was told last year at the factory by one of their sales people that as long as they keep getting orders for the R22 they will keep building them. However I was told they prefer to build R44's because they have a better margin on them. Build fewer helicopters, make more money. With the R66 going in to production soon, they may slow down production of the R22 (my speculation)

 

RW

[jabr800]

Hello All,

 

Thanks for the replies, especially "Goldy".

I also have one other concern that maybe you can address, or someone else on the forum.

What do you think may happen to an older Beta II's value like mine, if Silver State Helcopter Flying school is finally sued into oblivion, and many hunded's of newer Beta II's (admittiedly former trainers), end up in liquidation or some kind of auction scenario?

Thanks again everyone.

 

jabr800

 

 

 

In two years you will have 1000 - 1100 hours on it and 2 years left of the 12. You have to sell it prior to this point to max the value. After that it starts to decline due to the looming 12 year run out. Its not worth spending 50 K for an inspection and still have old parts that have over 1000 hours on them.

 

I would rather spend 100K, get all new parts and have another 2200 hours. Besides, if you sell now, you will miss out on the appreciation of the R22 over the next two years. Look at how many price increases have occurred in the last 8 years, which has helped keep the value up.

 

A nice ship, timed out is still worth 50-60K.

 

Goldy

[mechanic]

RHC sent me a list of the part numbers of things required to be replaced. I will have to look for the letter. I don't remember where I put it.

[rtrhead71]

Hello All,

 

Thanks for the replies, especially "Goldy".

I also have one other concern that maybe you can address, or someone else on the forum.

What do you think may happen to an older Beta II's value like mine, if Silver State Helcopter Flying school is finally sued into oblivion, and many hunded's of newer Beta II's (admittiedly former trainers), end up in liquidation or some kind of auction scenario?

Thanks again everyone.

 

jabr800

 

Well jabr800, there will then be 100's of 22's on the market. I don't see this hurting the value of your a/c too much, but it may dip down a bit. I'm sure that more than half of that fleet will be high in hours and require some work soon after purchase. Robinson will be getting a load of orders for overhaul kits so they'll make out like bandits for awhile. I'm sure your ship is in great condition and that will always be attractive to the savvy buyer. Keep me in mind in a couple of years if/when you decide to sell, I may be able to help you out.

[jabr800]

Thanks rtrhead71,

 

Regarding the part about "when you decide to sell, I may be able to help you out." , let me ask you this, what would you use to calculate for a retail value in a few days (thinking upcoming price increase on Jan. 15, 2008)?

One dealer I spoke with really struggled with this question, but finally said, if I were to try to sell in the near future, they'd attempt a $135,000 - $149,900 range.

Would you agree with that idea? That might speed me up a little if I could capture the high end of that price range, and then move on to a 2008 R-22 or maybe a Raven I.

Also, do you deal in Robinson's professionally?

Thanks again.

 

jabr800

 

 

 

 

 

Well jabr800, there will then be 100's of 22's on the market. I don't see this hurting the value of your a/c too much, but it may dip down a bit. I'm sure that more than half of that fleet will be high in hours and require some work soon after purchase. Robinson will be getting a load of orders for overhaul kits so they'll make out like bandits for awhile. I'm sure your ship is in great condition and that will always be attractive to the savvy buyer. Keep me in mind in a couple of years if/when you decide to sell, I may be able to help you out.

[bellpilot]

Hi jabr800, Give Travis @ Leading Edge Aviation a call or shoot him an e-mail. They are always buying timed out and time remaining 22's/44's and taking trade-ins. LEA sells new ,used and leases over 30 to 50 Robinsons each year. I am sure you would get the straight answers to your questions.

 

www.leadingedgeavn.com

www.flybend.com

541-383-8825

[rtrhead71]

Thanks rtrhead71,

 

Regarding the part about "when you decide to sell, I may be able to help you out." , let me ask you this, what would you use to calculate for a retail value in a few days (thinking upcoming price increase on Jan. 15, 2008)?

One dealer I spoke with really struggled with this question, but finally said, if I were to try to sell in the near future, they'd attempt a $135,000 - $149,900 range.

Would you agree with that idea? That might speed me up a little if I could capture the high end of that price range, and then move on to a 2008 R-22 or maybe a Raven I.

Also, do you deal in Robinson's professionally?

Thanks again.

 

jabr800

 

 

 

By the way, I am familar, that as a Private owner, not in commercial use, I can go past 12 years if I haven't hit 2,200 hours, but our friends at Pathfinder Indeminity, won't insure me after that, because the copter will no longer be following the prescribed Robinson Maintaince procedures..

 

You're welcome. I do not deal in R-22's professionally, not as of yet. In the coming years I have a Bus. Plan in the works to do just that...so at that time then I would be able to help you more on the subject. If I may though, I'll throw some thoughts your way on the topic. Just my thinking, so remember, not a professional opinion...yet.

 

You've added all the bells and whistle's so to speak, so that is advantageous on your end. If selling to a private buyer that has no interest in putting your bird to work commercially, I can see you being able to use those added bonuses as a plus when selling. That should enable you to hold a higher value for the product when placed in the proper "light". Being able to work those items into substantiating a higher value to the potential customer can work. Not even being at the halfway mark as far as hours go will be a selling point to a private buyer since they wouldn't have to do a 12 year because it's not being used commercially.

 

If you had a buyer that is looking at putting your a/c to work though, they will possibly request that you go at least "halfsies" on the overhaul and knock your price down for that reason alone. "Bells and whistle's" won't be a factor for them most likely, depending on what you put in it. They would probably want to offer you a price that includes the whole overhaul price but I'm guessing you could get it at the half way mark like I stated before.

 

I think Goldy nailed it for you actually. In two years you'll be at about 1000 hours on it with 2 years left. Prices are going up. I'd hang on to it. Commercially speaking it won't matter that there is only 2 years left...they'll put the 2200 hours on it before 12 years is up anyways. In 2 years you'll have an a/c that someone will still be able to get a full year out of in flight training and the value will be higher.

 

I added a snippet from one of your previous posts because I'm curious since I don't know the particulars on the reasoning. Your insurance won't cover you past 12 years because it doesn't follow proper Robinson maint. procedures. My understanding is that it is Robinson's policy to do overhaul at 2200 hours. What allows you to go past 12 years if it is a private a/c not being used commercially. If it is in fact Robinson that allows that, then would that not be policy from Robinson...and if it is, then why would the insurance company have a problem with that since they stated that they were going by the policy of RHI? To put it another way, if Robinson states that a private owner not using the a/c commercially can circumvent the 12 year inspection policy, then would that not be proper maint. procedure?

[jabr800]

Here's all I can find right now from my "Pathfinder Indemnity" policy. Keep in Mind that Pathfinder is run by Frank Robinson's Brother in Law (Robert Cordes), and many R-22's and R-44's are insured with this Off-Shore Company (Freeport, Bahamas). Their pricing is much less than "American Insurance", even though their policies have a few "Holes" in them.

From my standpoint as a guy who's had his Copter for 8 years now, I've saved a lot on those premiums. It's not always easy to find a Bank Loan that will go with Off-Shore Insurance by the way!

Just one example mentioned to me by the dealer in California when I bought the machine, was I need to do 100 hour inspections (According to the Robinson Maint. Manual which I have never seen). I was first concerned by what I thought was going to be an unnecessary burden (not knowing how many hours per year I would be flying), but as it turns out my Annual Inspection comes around every 11-12 months, and this comes out OK.

Second point is apparently the Maint. Manual, which again I've never seen, or perhaps the portion of it that the Insurance policy referrences, says that the machine Must have the 2,200 hour OVERHAUL, not the 2,200 hour INSPECTION.

Anyway Page 9 of 11 of my Insurance says in section 2,

We will not provide insurance under any part of this policy or defense under any part of this policy.

"STANDARD AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE". If the aircraft does not have a valid Standard Airworthiness Certificate, or if the aircraft is not maintained in accordance with Federal Aviation regulations which apply for the flight involved, or if the aircraft has not been maintained in accordance with the Manufacturer's Maintenance Manual and Service Bulletins.

I'm not sure how well I've answered the question here, but I have been told by people smarter than me, that this is how all this stuff works.

I would have the option of switching insurance companies at 12 years, and just going with the 12 year INSPECTION instead of the 12 year OVERHAUL, but as of this years quote, my $5,500 Pathfinder quote jumps to almost $9,000 annually, and the next 2 quotes are like $11,000 and $14,000 respectively.

Thanks again to all.

 

jabr800

 

 

 

I added a snippet from one of your previous posts because I'm curious since I don't know the particulars on the reasoning. Your insurance won't cover you past 12 years because it doesn't follow proper Robinson maint. procedures. My understanding is that it is Robinson's policy to do overhaul at 2200 hours. What allows you to go past 12 years if it is a private a/c not being used commercially. If it is in fact Robinson that allows that, then would that not be policy from Robinson...and if it is, then why would the insurance company have a problem with that since they stated that they were going by the policy of RHI? To put it another way, if Robinson states that a private owner not using the a/c commercially can circumvent the 12 year inspection policy, then would that not be proper maint. procedure?

[mechanic]

Hey,

I finally found the letter. I almost hid it from myself, lol... This will give you a comparison anyways. The person I was in contact with was,

 

Roberto Vela, RHC tech support

310-539-0508 ext 208

 

Items required to be disassembled and inspected:

 

Main Rotor Blade and Spindles

Rotor Hub Assy

Main Rotor Gearbox and Mast

Fanshaft and Bearing Assy

Tail Rotor Assy

Swashplate Assy

Clutch Assy

Tail Rotor Gearbox Assy

Fanwheel Assy

 

Items to be replaced:

 

Throttle Arm Assy

Tail Rotor Pitch Ctrl

Tail Rotor Driveshaft Damp Bearing Assy

Actuator Assy

V Belts

Tail Rotor Bellcrank

Main Rotor Pitch Link Assy

Swashplate Boot

Hoses, Air Ducts

Alt Belt

Governor Ctrl

 

Plus a list of procedures to be performed during this functions, 4-21.

 

Plus any AD's, upgrades, or corrosion.