Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

Hello Everyone -

 

A little background. I passed my private rotor add on about 3 years ago and have been flying H300s. I am now looking at an instrument and commercial add on and figured that I would try to do it in a turbine. The cost of rental of those units being what they are, I started talking to my tax folks and came up with the brilliant idea of purchasing a used 206. I have never flown one, and the instrument/commercial work would give me the necessary time to make the insurance company happy.

 

I have always liked the Jet Rangers, but in looking around, it seems everyone in really in love with their used ships. Lots of high time, high dollar helos out there and a lot of people trying to explain why $600k+ is a good deal for a 8000+ hour ship. So I started looking at a new Schweizer 333.

 

Loaded, a new 333 with a 530 over 430 was quoted to me at less than $800k

 

I am torn, I really like the 206, but for the money, the 333 seems like the way to go. I do not need to carry 5 people, three would be just fine. I have never flown either ship, so I cannot choose from experience in that regard.

 

So I would like to get input from the VR folks out there that have knowledge that I lack. Is a high time 206 with good component times a good deal at $650K or should I lean towards a new 333 for a little bit more? I understand Bell is cutting the 206 line totally and will stop delivering them in 2010 and I can only imagine the cost of the used 206s will continue to climb as a result.

 

How about safety, handling, load carrying, easy of flight for low time rotor pilot, etc...?

 

Any input, thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Posted (edited)

First, I have never purchased an aircraft, flown a 206, or flown a 333.

 

If all you want to do is get your instrument/commercial then go with the helicopter that has lower operating/maint cost (both are similar safety wise, I think). If you can do what you want with either helicopter, but one costs less to operate, I would think it is an easy decision. I assume you would keep the helicopter for personal use after that. If you want to be able to use it to make money later on, then whatever it is you want to do later should influence the decision.

Edited by PhotoFlyer
Posted

That goes to show you how our brains work (or do not work) sometimes....it never occurred to me to look at used 333s!

 

 

Thanks!

Posted
First, I have never purchased an aircraft, flown a 206, or flown a 333.

 

If all you want to do is get your instrument/commercial then go with the helicopter that has lower operating/maint cost (both are similar safety wise, I think). If you can do what you want with either helicopter, but one costs less to operate, I would think it is an easy decision. I assume you would keep the helicopter for personal use after that. If you want to be able to use it to make money later on, then whatever it is you want to do later should influence the decision.

 

Hey PhotoFlyer -

 

Yes, I would think that I would want to keep it for 5 to 10 years or longer. Its not a mode of transportation for me as I have my plane for that, and I doubt I would ever lease it back to someone for training since I am a bit anal when it comes to my toys. Basically I am just looking for a good, stable, reliable turbine helicopter to get my instrument and commercial in, and then to continue to fly and enjoy for 5 to 10 years. Both a used 206 and a new 333 are within my financial ability to obtain, but I would hate to make that large of mistake with that much money (getting the 'wrong' ship) when I have access to all the talent on VR ! :-)

Posted
Hey PhotoFlyer -

 

Yes, I would think that I would want to keep it for 5 to 10 years or longer. Its not a mode of transportation for me as I have my plane for that, and I doubt I would ever lease it back to someone for training since I am a bit anal when it comes to my toys. Basically I am just looking for a good, stable, reliable turbine helicopter to get my instrument and commercial in, and then to continue to fly and enjoy for 5 to 10 years. Both a used 206 and a new 333 are within my financial ability to obtain, but I would hate to make that large of mistake with that much money (getting the 'wrong' ship) when I have access to all the talent on VR ! :-)

 

The 330/333 doesn't seem to be a very popular ship. On the other hand as you have found the 206 is a popular ship. There are reason for this. I have talked about the 330 with several police pilots who fly it and the 500. They much prefer the 500. They prefer the 300 over the 330. There are a lot of 206's around so parts and maintenance would be easier to obtain. With the hydraulic controls it is much smoother and less fatiguing. Plus with the high interia rotor makes auto's easier. Personally I would suggest taking a demo flight in each before deciding.

Posted
Have you looked at A-Stars?

 

 

I did look at them initially, but in doing the research I hear that they are quite a bit more expensive to operate than either the 206 and the 333 with the 333 being the least expensive.

Posted

If your willing to go to a 333 have you considered the Enstrom 480B? I've heard lots of good things about it... more useful, better speed, more room... closer to a 206, but cheaper. The operating costs will also be less than the 206... sure if you have the money why not look at a used 500D. Even an early 369 would be great as a personal helicopter.

Posted (edited)

Junkie,

 

Of those two alternatives? Jetranger is the one. Parts availability second to none, reliable machine, burns about same amount of fuel than 333 but is faster and has more space, hydraulics is nice... Did i mention parts already... :rolleyes: ?? And if you think about it as a beauty contest... "Who's that ugly one?"... "She's number 333"...." Now what the h*** is she doing here?"....

 

Someone mentioned 350 earlier. Think carefully before buying one because it's a lot more expensive to operate than the ones you mentioned and parts availability SUCKS, big time. What i've heard from different sources it's the same thing all over the world.

 

Now don't get me wrong here, i love 350, i fly one for a living. It has to be the best single engine helicopter ever made, even an old B-model is a beast compared to the best Jetranger in the world. It's also faster and a joy to fly, but even with all that greatness it ain't worth to buy one at the moment. Not if you don't really need one (if you have a job that can't be done with less powerful machine...). The market is "hot" at the moment because there's lot more buyers than sellers due to 36-month waiting list for new 350's. Yes you read it right, 3 years if you order one today :o. That's the case at least here in Europe but it affects the market globally and at the moment few sellers are asking huge prices of the few 350's that are available on the market. 5000 hour B2 costs more that the new one would cost at the factory :huh:

 

Jetranger is a safe choice ;)

Edited by FinR
Posted

I have to second aipiguy's advice on looking at a 480B. I have flown them. They have tons of power, are large inside, mechanics love them, great at high altitudes, and a good DOC.

Here's a link to one for sale at Sharkeys:

http://www.sharkeys.com/

 

The jetranger would be my second choice. I wouldn't worry about parts for those even after they cut the 206 line at Bell. Parts wil be available long after you and I are around. Bell makes too much money in the parts department and there are tons of them out there.

 

The Astar would be great, but it is a lot more expensive to aquire vs a 480B/jetranger.

 

I hear the 333 is power limited at altitude. Don't know for sure, since I've never flown one.

Posted

This is all fantastic information - Thanks.

 

So from what I gather the 500D is the hot rod of the group, but I am assuming that is costs a lot more to operate than the 206 correct..? I am going to look at the 333s and try and get more info on them as well as the 480B.

 

On the 480B, how does it fair against the 206 as far as speed, operating costs and maintenance ?

 

Also, is it safe to assume that the 206 would be the most comfortable ride among the group (206, 500B/D, 333, 480B) for passengers? My main goal is not a hot rod, none of these would compare to 185KIAS TAS in my Cirrus, I want safe, reliable, nice looking (ok the 500 takes the cake there :D ), and reasonable to operate.

 

As a side note - there are a fair amount of high time 206s out there - 10 to 15,000 hours but with low component times....should I stay away from these high timers, or it the time not too much of a thing to worry about..?

 

 

Thanks Everyone - what a great forum!

Posted
This is all fantastic information - Thanks.

 

So from what I gather the 500D is the hot rod of the group, but I am assuming that is costs a lot more to operate than the 206 correct..? I am going to look at the 333s and try and get more info on them as well as the 480B.

 

On the 480B, how does it fair against the 206 as far as speed, operating costs and maintenance ?

 

Also, is it safe to assume that the 206 would be the most comfortable ride among the group (206, 500B/D, 333, 480B) for passengers? My main goal is not a hot rod, none of these would compare to 185KIAS TAS in my Cirrus, I want safe, reliable, nice looking (ok the 500 takes the cake there :D ), and reasonable to operate.

 

As a side note - there are a fair amount of high time 206s out there - 10 to 15,000 hours but with low component times....should I stay away from these high timers, or it the time not too much of a thing to worry about..?

 

 

Thanks Everyone - what a great forum!

 

You should give Roger Sharkey a call on detailed information on the 480B and the 206's. He loves them both. He is also an industry expert in both. He will give you the "no bull" info you need without the sugar coating. I can send you DOC sheets on both, but they are worthless. Actual real world figures he'll have for you.

 

As far as total time...means nothing. You're looking for a compromise in comp time remaining, installed equipment, overall condition, and selling price.

Posted
This is all fantastic information - Thanks.

 

So from what I gather the 500D is the hot rod of the group, but I am assuming that is costs a lot more to operate than the 206 correct..? I am going to look at the 333s and try and get more info on them as well as the 480B.

 

On the 480B, how does it fair against the 206 as far as speed, operating costs and maintenance ?

 

Also, is it safe to assume that the 206 would be the most comfortable ride among the group (206, 500B/D, 333, 480B) for passengers? My main goal is not a hot rod, none of these would compare to 185KIAS TAS in my Cirrus, I want safe, reliable, nice looking (ok the 500 takes the cake there :D ), and reasonable to operate.

 

As a side note - there are a fair amount of high time 206s out there - 10 to 15,000 hours but with low component times....should I stay away from these high timers, or it the time not too much of a thing to worry about..?

 

 

Thanks Everyone - what a great forum!

 

I used to work for an operator that had several A-Stars. The parts situation will drive you to tears and then some.

 

I talked about the 480B with an experienced Enstrom operator. He currently doesn't operate one for one simple reason. The exhaust stacks come out the bottom. While it doesn't sound like a big deal, it is hot enough to soften asphalt and caused him concern about off airport landings.

 

And talking with pilots who have flown both the 500 and the 206, tell me that a pilot will buy the 500 and the passenger will buy the 206. The rear of the 500 is tight compared to the 206, but it's handling is much crisper. However for longer flights, the pilots prefer the 206 because of the hydraulic boost.

 

As for the high time 206's, it really depends on how they have been used and where. Some will be real treasures and others will be real buckets of !@#$%^&*()_@!#$%^&*()_. Gulf Coast operations and long line operations should be looked carefully, if at all.

Posted

Just my opinion, get a B2 Jetranger with the c20B, Product support is the best out there, you can find parts everywhere for them, and most helicopter mechanics out there have worked on the 206 series aircraft not so much the 333 or the 480B. You can run a jetranger day in and day out, and it wont let you down. Also statistically speaking it is the safest Single engine aircraft out there including airplanes. It autos better than just about any other helicopter out there. There is also a better used market out there than the 333 and 480. Its also a very forgiving airframe to fly. Proven technology since 1967 (great machine).

Posted
As for the high time 206's, it really depends on how they have been used and where. Some will be real treasures and others will be real buckets of !@#$%^&*()_@!#$%^&*()_. Gulf Coast operations and long line operations should be looked carefully, if at all.

 

 

Rick1128 -

 

Yes..thanks for the advice...I have been told to stay away from Gulf Coast ships, its interesting to hear it from yet another person!

Posted

206 and 500 are very comparable cost and operation wise... sure the 500 is faster... both will do about the same mission

 

333 and 480b same thing.... with the 480 a little more performance.

 

The 333 and 480 are newer designs that will provide turbine performance and reliability over PISTON designs.... they can't really compete head to head with the other two in utility missions.... for light observation and other light mission work they can.

 

The purchase of a 333 or 480 will give you a much NEWER ship with LOWER component times for less than the 500 or 206.... so it really comes down to what mission you're planning on flying and what kind of money you want to spend.

 

Say you're willing to spend 600K.... that will get you a nearly new 333 or 480.... or it will get you a mid time 206 or 500.

 

If you're intent is to fly it periodically (100 hrs/yr) the component costs and maintenance won't be a factor for many years either way you look at it. If you intend to work the helicopter (300+ hrs/yr) you're going to see your costs rise significantly in the older helicopters as they will require parts sooner and more $$.

Posted
If you're intent is to fly it periodically (100 hrs/yr) the component costs and maintenance won't be a factor for many years either way you look at it. If you intend to work the helicopter (300+ hrs/yr) you're going to see your costs rise significantly in the older helicopters as they will require parts sooner and more $$.

 

ApiaGuy -

 

I work a full time job and get in about 125 to 150 hours a year of flying and I don't see that going up anytime soon!! I see your point on the times...even a mid time 206 will last me quite a while at 100 hours a year.

Posted

Well, enough said... I would pick the 500E if I could...

I mentioned the 500D earlier because it will be cheaper... you can put the E nose on it (via STC) and it will look identical (pretty much the only difference anyway)

The 500 is the ship any private owner could possibly want. Sure the 206 is a reliable dog with hydraulics.... but it is slower, uglier and has a 2 bladed rotor.... give me that 500 any day.

Posted

:unsure:

 

What I am finding out is that the price for even mid-time 206s and even the 500s are very high. I am not sure the reason, but looking over the trends of the past 5 years, the used market has gone up an average of 40% on the 206s alone.

 

I have talked to so many used helicopter sales people in the last three days, its getting hard to keep them straight! People are asking (and getting if you believe them) $400, $500, $600K+ for ships with 10,000+ hours on them. Seems the thing to do these days is to buy them, put new paint on them, a new interior and then tack on $300k to the price.

$500k would not be bad for good midtime ship, but it looks like it may only get me something with over 10K hours.

 

There are several that I found in the mid $400s, but they have run out compressors and that is something my bell shop tells me starts at around $40 to $60k i nothing else needs work.

 

My mentor in this process (who also owns the local Bell/Schweizer shop) is telling me to sit tight and wait - that the economy will catch up with the numbers and in a year or two the prices should stabilize. He has not been impressed with any of the $500k and below ships that I have run across (now almost 30 of them).

 

In the mean time, he suggests building time in a R44 or H300 while I look around for a good, used 206 or even 500. Since I have only about 100 hours in rotor, I am thinking I should be inclined to take his advice and (for now) get a 300C since that is all I really know how to fly.

 

What do you guys think..? Will the prices come down or continue to go up?

 

A separate question is nagging me. Although my instructor did not say it, I get the impression that he feels jumping into something that burns Jet A with only 100 hours rotor might not really be the best idea. Have many of you gone from piston to turbine with low time...? Is there really anything to worry about beyond the normal horror stories I am reminded of anytime I allow the rotor rpm to slip a little bit..? Or learning the particular ship..? The 206 i supposed to be the safest helicopter on the planet (or so someone said), even more so than the 300.

 

Am I making a mistake to jump in to a larger helicopter with so little experience?

Posted (edited)

Don't listen to people that tell you that going to a turbine ship with 100 hours wouldn't be a good idea.

 

A turbine powered helicopter is EASIER to fly..... more power, better governors.... the ONLY negative is the additional cost (especially insurance)... people will try to say "oh but if you over temp it" or "the parts cost when you ding it is so much more" phoohey!

 

I own and fly 300's simply because they are great personal aircraft at a reasonable rate (kinda like your cirrus) The 44 has more room and better speed but costs more.

 

I have a turbo mooney and I'm looking at getting a P210 for the extra room.... sure I'd like a single turbine.... say TBM or meridian... but the cost isn't justified by my use.

 

My local bell shop tells people to NOT FLY HELICOPTERS unless you can fly a turbine powered ship.... they're just too dangerous they say.

 

Almost forgot.... NO, I don't believe prices will drop... they may stay stagnant for a little while with the drop in economy, but I think they will remain high... I've been watching also and I can't believe what my 300's are selling for now either.

When you've been in the industry and seen what they cost barely 5 years ago you can't hardly believe people are asking and getting what they are now.

Edited by apiaguy
Posted
... I've been watching also and I can't believe what my 300's are selling for now either.

When you've been in the industry and seen what they cost barely 5 years ago you can't hardly believe people are asking and getting what they are now.

 

 

That was exactly what I was thinking, but some believe that the costs are way too high and cannot do anything but come down from where they are at now.

 

I have not given up hope that my 206 is out there somewhere :rolleyes: I just have to find it!

Posted

I have to say that as someone who has operated and maintained both the 206 and 500 models, the 206 is the way to go. Yes the 500 is sexy and flies like a sports car, but it is much more expensive to maintain. I would say they were at least 50% more expensive in maintenance costs. Another thing to consider is that you can find an experienced Bell mechanic almost anywhere in the world. Experienced 500 mechanics are harder to come by.

 

If you hot start a turbine, it can get very expensive if you cook something. You may not find anyone to insure you until you have a certain amount of turbine time either. You might have to hire an experienced pilot to fly with you for some time. The lowest minimums I saw were 250 hours and 50 turbine for a private owner. I do know one guy that bought a 206 after he got his private in an R22 and I know insurance was $48K a year and he had to have a minimum of 100 in type before he could fly by himself because he only had about 60 in helicopters when he bought it.

Posted
Am I making a mistake to jump in to a larger helicopter with so little experience?

 

If everyone could afford to do all of their flight training in a 206 or 500, they would. It's still a helicopter. If you can afford a more expensive ship to do your training in and have a nice bird in the end that you're familiar with to take your family up in, then buy the bird you want. Like many have said though, insurance will be stiff.

 

If I could have done all of my training in a 206 or 500, oh ya...good times. Hell, there was a guy at Rotors of the Rockies that did all of his training in a EC135 a year ago! Must be nice!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...