Need help on legally logging hours..very weird situation

[Darkhorse]

I am planning on getting my rotor wing endorsement all the way through CFII. My "special" situation is that I am a civilian for the Dept. of Defense and I fly left seat in a helicopter everyday but my "job" for the DoD is not to be a pilot. I am wondering what it would take for me to log time legally if at all. This arm of the DoD ofcourse does not let you "wiggle the sticks" if you are not a pilot for them. On the other hand the guy I talked to at the FAA says he could care less what the DoD regulations are and that as long as any "training" or "flying" was done for my benefit as a private pilot was done in accordance with FAA standards (such as the DoD pilot being a CFI) he could care less if training was done in a military helicopter regardless of how the military views it.

 

Now, in the military they require specific Acft qualification, as in you cannot just go from say a UH-1B to a UH-1H without specific training in each acft. On the private side you can go from say a Bell 205 to a UH-1H with no difficulty (correct me if I'm wrong anywhere).

 

So my question is, if you were checked out in a Bell 205, could you log time in a UH-1? or checked out in a jet ranger log time in an OH-58 in the above situation? The FAA guy said as long as the Pilot (as long as CFI) was willing to sign the log book he didnt care, but what if you were not "recieving training" and just flying left seat. Could you log the time legally? Ofcourse it would not be beneficial PIC time, but would help in overall hours for insurance and employment purposes no? Forgive me if I sound ignorant, I'm chasing a dream and cost is a factor.

[Goldy]

It's actually not difficult at all. You can fly, and log the time that you are receiving dual, as long as your hands are on the controls and the guy next to you is a current FAA CFI Helicopter and is willing to sign your log book.

 

As far as the aircraft, I dont think anyone really cares. You only need specific type certs on aircraft over 12,500 pounds...so you can go from a Robbie 22 to a Huey with no added training ( as far as the FAA is concerned)..

 

And if you want to keep it to yourself, you don't even need a student pilot/medical until you solo.

 

Have fun...great job.

 

Goldy

[klmmarine]

Legally if you are riding in an aircraft as a passenger, and do not manipulate the controls, you can't log time. <_>

 

You "CAN" log any time you want, whether you are in an aircraft or not, but you shouldn't. You may get caught, you may not. But this is really a moral question more than anything else. Are you the type of guy that goes home early, and has someone clock you out at the end of the day so you get paid for the hours you weren't there? If you are, then go ahead and log 2000 hours PIC in the UH-1, it won't do you a damn bit of good when you get to a job interview and fly like you have 40 hours of R-22 time...

 

As far as logging time in different aircraft, as a private pilot you can legally operate any helicopter up to 12,500#. With the exception of SFAR 73, the only time that the FAA requires "Special Training" or a "Check Out" to fly an aircraft is if you plan to fly it commercially (part 133, 135 etc...) or if it has a max gross weight above 12,500# (which would require a type rating).

[Darkhorse]

Legally if you are riding in an aircraft as a passenger, and do not manipulate the controls, you can't log time.

 

You "CAN" log any time you want, whether you are in an aircraft or not, but you shouldn't. You may get caught, you may not. But this is really a moral question more than anything else. Are you the type of guy that goes home early, and has someone clock you out at the end of the day so you get paid for the hours you weren't there? If you are, then go ahead and log 2000 hours PIC in the UH-1, it won't do you a damn bit of good when you get to a job interview and fly like you have 40 hours of R-22 time...

 

As far as logging time in different aircraft, as a private pilot you can legally operate any helicopter up to 12,500#. With the exception of SFAR 73, the only time that the FAA requires "Special Training" or a "Check Out" to fly an aircraft is if you plan to fly it commercially (part 133, 135 etc...) or if it has a max gross weight above 12,500# (which would require a type rating).

 

No I am not that type. Maybe I am confusing military flight time with FAA flight time. I'm used to military pilots logging PIC or PI....the PI still counts as his total time even though he may not have been doing the actual flying, it still counted as experience. As I said forgive my ignorance.

[Rogue917]

The real question is do you really touch the controls in flight, what is your function on board the aircraft. Once you become a rated Heli pilot you can log any time you spend at the controls.

[arlnepilot]

Realistically if you just sit in the left seat, and you are not a pilot, student or otherwise, and you DONT touch the controls, you are nothing more than a passenger. What do you have to log, if you don't touch the controls, what is the IP, going to put in your logbook. Bottom line, you really have nothing to log, anymore than any other passenger would.

 

Just enjoy the ride, and if you want to learn to fly, then go get some training where you actually manipulate the controls.

[delorean]

1 - The guy next to you will have to be a current FAA certificated CFI.

 

2 - He will have to be willing to sign off your logbook with the instruction he gave you. Which is more than likely all "straight and level" and/or "ground ref maneuvers".

 

3 - You will actually have to be receiving instruction the WHOLE time you are logging the time. So if you're an observer, photographer, gunner, whatever; when you're doing your other duty, you cannot log time.

 

4 - Next [HELP ME OUT], can a civilian log time in a military aircraft? That aircraft does not have a type certificate, nor an N-number, and is not recognized, approved, etc by the FAA as an aircraft. Military aviators go through paperwork to get their hours and experience recognized by the FAA. So, I don't know if a civilian student can do that. And you fly a UH-1, it goes in the book as a UH-1, not the civilian equivilent. Don't know how this would work.

 

In any case, it's a great chance for you to get some free TURBINE hours. Who cares if employers don't look at it as real time......as long as you have some other ample time to back it up, they won't care. It will get you toward insurance minimums. Plenty of employers will let jet airplane time count for the "500 hrs of turbine time". Now tell me how 500 hrs of flying at 30,000 ft in a Citation is better than an extra 500 hrs doing autos in a R22. Gimmie a break.

[Node]

When I sign my name to a log book for training I've given, I'm putting my name and license on the line. If I signed off a thousand hours of instruction and you crash trying to hover....guess who is going to get a few uncomfortable questions asked of them. Where I did my training some of the mechanics would taxi the helicopters back to the hanger if they were still out on the line or of course go on maint flights. They would have a cfi ride with them and then sign it off to help build hours if they were working on a license. But they were the ones in control of the helicopter, not just riding along. If you can't even touch the controls its not instruction. Besides its a lot more fun when you get to fly the darn thing! Now an R-22 vs a uh# hmmmmmm........

[Darkhorse]

I have 2000 non-rated hours and between 200-225 hours of hands on of which I have logged NONE and will NOT log any. I am a student just starting fixed wing training. My question of logging time was meant for after I had completed rotor wing training. Thanks for the replies, im not trying to be deceteful, I'm trying to be legal. I'm not pressing doing something in the wrong manner I'm just educating myself to see if I have an advantage in my situation.

[klmmarine]

As I said forgive my ignorance.

 

I didn't mean to imply that you were ignorant, and I hope you didn't take it that way. But your post said that your branch of the DoD doesn't let anyone but pilots "wiggle the sticks" and I took that to mean that you were asking if your time as a passenger counts. It also sounds like your FAA buddy is flirting with losing his job if he knowingly accepts fraudulent log book entries.

 

Bottom line, it is a really slippery slope and this is a very small industry. You would be much better off spending more time building the hours for real, gaining competence. Than you would if you padded your log book with time spent sightseeing from the left seat.

 

Believe me I wish that I could log some of my flight time from the Navy, I have about 400 hours in SH-60s and SH-3s, about 50 in high performance fixed wing aircraft, and about 100, catapult launches and arrested carrier landings. Unfortunately all of that stuff was from the back seat and doesn't count for anything but good memories and great pictures.

 

Good luck! Stay safe!

[Goldy]

You can fly, and log the time that you are receiving dual, as long as your hands are on the controls Goldy

 

 

I think some guys are misinterpreting his post a bit. Like I said, as long as he is flying....and not just sitting there, he is the manipulator of the controls...and yes, you can log it just like anyone else learning how to fly.

 

As Delorean brought up- you may just end up with a bunch of straight and level time which is the easy stuff and doesnt help you learn to fly much. However, at some point hours are hours, and yes, logging even some of the time THAT YOU ARE MANIPULATING THE CONTROLS will help you in the end. Its not cheating, its not underhanded.....if you are flying, you are logging the dual instruction time.

[lockedcj7]

I was a 93B Aeroscout Observer from 1990-1992 in the U.S. Army. My primary MOS was to fly left-seat in an OH-58 and act as a co-pilot, navigator, radio operator and forward observer. During the course of my training both at Ft. Rucker and at my line unit, I learned to fly the OH-58 enough to complete a mission or RTB if the the pilot was incapacitated. My MOS was eliminated and the Army gave me the option or re-training or ETS. I chose to get out since I wouldn't be flying anymore.

 

Fast-forward to 2005 when I decided to get back into helicopters. I dug out my old training records and I tried like hell to find a way to legally and legitimately claim those hours. Nothing worked. The bottom line is that I have more experience in and around helicopters than my logbook reflects. It was great experience and it made my subsequent training much faster and easier but I still can't log those hours.

 

If I understood your post correctly, this particular branch of DoD won't let you touch the controls. If that is the case, I don't see how you can log anything. If the pilot you are flying with is an FAA CFI, and s/he will let you take the controls then you could log that time as 'dual received' provided that s/he is willing to sign your logbook.

 

Here's what I suggest. Tell the pilot you're flying with what your long-term plans are. Ask them to teach you everything they are willing to teach and explain everything they are willing to explain. Ask millions of questions, as long as it doesn't present a distraction, a hazard to the safety of the flight or jeopardize your mission. I know I would feel much better flying with a left-seat who had a clue rather than one who didn't.

 

Buy some books and learn everything you can about ATC, weather, communications, the NAS, etc. If the pilot senses that you know your stuff, they will be a lot more comfortable giving you more responsibilities. All of this means that you will be on the fast-track when you start paying for lessons.

 

Suggested reading: (Google any of these and you'll come up with a million sites that sell them all.)

Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (FAA)

Rotorcraft Flying Handbook (FAA)

FAR/AIM (I like the ASA version) The pilot/controller glossary in the back is invaluable.

Private Pilot Test prep (ASA book) Actual questions from the FAA written exam, with explanations.

Private Pilot prepware (ASA software) Same as above plus it mimics the computerized testing environment.

MS flight sim software Will not teach you how to fly but it is good for learning how to use different radio aids to navigation and GPS. It may be different than the equipment in a DoD helicopter but it will be similar to what's in a civilian bird.

[Darkhorse]

Thanks for the tips Lockedcj7. This isnt nearly as big of deal as my post has probably made it seem. When your staring $300 dollars an hour for training in the face your mind starts churning lol.

After sleeping on it I would not even want to ask the pilot to sign my log book even if he was a cfi just because we do work for the DoD and I am not supposed to be touching the controls. Its great that I do fly a lot, I do most of the radio calls and have done everything save auto's and feel very comfortable. I'm sure/hope that will save me money down the road in my training. Flying is one thing, having him put pen to paper is another.

[Gomer Pylot]

You can log time when not manipulating the controls if you are a rated pilot, and the aircraft requires two or more pilots. Neither of these apply in your case, so no, you can't log the time while you're just sitting in the seat.

[Darkhorse]

Sorry this thread has been somewhat confusing, I am a new member and my responses are not posted immediately. My response is posted after 2 or 3 other comments have been made further confusing things.

This is my summary of the conversation so far:

My original question was IF I was checked out in a B205 (or to simplify, have an FAA rotor wing liscense) could I legally log time in a UH-1? I know I could not as far as the DoD is conscerned, and since the 205 or 212 are single pilot, I cannot log PI but I "could" log time if I was on the controls (as far as the FAA is concerned). Ok I think we are clear as mud now

 

Now the other part, is if the pilot was a CFI and I WAS NOT an FAA pilot I could still log time if I was at the controls. However as I stated earlier (in a reply that has not been posted yet) I would not put a CFI in this position in a government acft.

 

Just for a little more clarification because in some cases i look like the pot calling the kettle black, the pilot has not just decided to teach me to fly for the fun of it (maybe a little). He is an older Vietnam era pilot who wanted me to be able to take the controls in any situation if anything happened to him. He not only wanted me to be able to take over and get him back, but he preferred the EMS not have to sift through the wreckage to treat him for the initial heart attack or stroke. It is not totally lawful as far as the government is concerned but I can LIVE with our situation.