Converting Military time

[Rick.]

I'm an Army Guard pilot looking at civilian jobs. My question is about logging PIC time for civilian purposes. I'm a little confused on how to depict my flight time in civilian terms.

 

FAR Part 61.51 says I can log pilot-in-command time "When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated..." (Hueys & Hawks), or "When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft" (-58's).

 

As it's common to fly with other Army PC's we end up taking turns logging PC or PI time - it's one or the other. And as I reflect on the typical dual pilot flight the actual hands-on-the-controls is generally split 50-50. So the first question is: would I be justified in counting 50% of the PI time as PIC time for FAA purposes under the sole manipulator rule? Coming up with exact times actually on the controls would be problematic as it's not tracked. Even though I have upwards of 4,000 hours my (FAA) PIC time seems woefully low if I count just the Army PC time as FAA PIC time.

 

FAR 61.51 also refers to who you are in the cockpit, not what you're doing with the controls: "When the pilot ... acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted." This is what the military calls "PC" or "aircraft commander" time and what the FAA calls "designated pilot-in-command" time. So the other question is: for the purposes of converting military flight time do employers consider both types ("sole manipulator of the controls" and "designated pilot-in-command") as PIC time? (I understand airlines only look at the latter.)

 

Obviously the best outcome for me would be to show both types of PIC time to include crediting 50% of my Army PI ("sole manipulator") time. An example in an aircraft requiring 2 pilots:

• Flt 1: 2 hour flight logged as PC (credit 2 hours PC under designated pilot-in-command time)
  
• Flt 2: 2 hour flight logged as PI (credit 1 hour PC under sole manipulator rule, assuming on the controls for 50% of the flight)
  
• Total FAA PIC time: 3 hours
  
• Total FAA SIC time: 1 hour
  

The dilemma is that not showing enough PIC time will keep those jobs out of reach for which I might otherwise be qualified. Yet the last thing any of us wants is to be questioned by a prospective employer or the FAA on how we justified our numbers.

 

Appreciate any advice.

 

Rick

Comm, IR-H&A, CL II

[BillyBob]

Rick,

 

I have been confronted with the same dilemma time and again. The Part 1 vs. Part 61 PIC debate.

 

Infact, I lost out on a job when I left active duty because I only counted PC and IP time as 'PIC' in my logbooks and resume. I had 872 hours of PIC and IP time.... they wanted 1000, no less. I guess I should have counted half of my 500 CoPilot/Gunner time. Guys growing up in Robbies/Schweitzer log time with a CFI as PIC after PVT. I.E. two people logging PIC at the same time. I did it in fixed wing world and understand the system. Not wrong, just different.

 

Multiple people told me to use the '50% rule' but I didn't want to. I will always wonder what if on that one.

 

Well, a few years and a several heated discussions later, I have come to this conclusion: It depends on who is interviewing you, what they need/want, what the hiring climate is, and how well you can verbalize the explain the FAR's, the AR's, and your reasoning for how you logged the flights.

 

What I have decided on is to convert every logbook entry to a LogBook Pro file and keep them accurate as to how I logged each flight at the time I put the pen to paper. I also added PI,PC,IP,N,NG,NS,W,H columns to the Logbook Pro file so that I can now break out Part 1 pic time, Part 61 pic time, and also N versus NG versus NS versus FAR Night times. As far as I know there is no way to log NVG or NVS in the civilian world per FAR. Several employers want Night 'Unaided'... but there is only 'Night' in the FARs. Additionally, frustrating as it is we can't log Hood time and Night time on the '-12' at the same time. But you don't want to lose that on your resume in the civilian world. There fore I capture everything via Logbook Pro with several added columns. I log each flight by both FAR and AR 95-1 standards. It is not perfect but Logbook Pro is something that you can tailor to help you get the most out of what you fly. Honestly, you can accomplish a lot of the same things with an Excell doc that you generate yourself. Less functionality than Logbook Pro, but no cost other than the time to create it.

 

Again, my interpretation/opinion is that I log/logged PIC when I was Current, Qualified and flying an aircraft not certified requiring two pilots. The -64A requires two pilots so I was either PIC or SIC. Furthermore, while flying as an airline pilot I logged SIC because the aircraft (CRJ) required a PIC and a SIC. I was one or the other. Flying an OH-58A etc requires only one pilot. If I was on the controls in a Scooter (God Love 'em), I logged it as PIC if I was the PI for the flight. If I was PC the whole flight is PIC. (Here's my current conundrum: I hold a CFII-MEI & CFI-RH. If I fly as PI on a helicopter flight...during the flight I show the PC tips, techniques, and teach them...Can I log it as Instructor on the civilian side?)

 

Bottom Line: Have a Resource for capturing the entire scope of each flight. A 759 will not do that alone. It is more official because it requires several eyes and your Commander for approval. But, it is not lined up with the FARs. Protect your career. Read the AR's and FARs word for word. Resist the temptation to short change your flight times under pressure from people that are ignorant.

Edited January 20, 2011 by BillyBob

[BlackHwk27]

Great question! BillyBob did a great job summing it up. I do much the same when logging time in the blackhawk, when on the controls I log PIC, when not on the controls I'm managing the cockpit (navigating, communicating, etc.)so I log SIC.

 

As long as you can justify it and make it clear when distinguishing between your logbook and your 759, you can't go wrong.

 

Another thing to create some discussion: When to start logging time, civilian vs. military. Civilian side: It's when the engine is started, military when you start moving the aircraft(either ground or hover taxi.) I now make it a habit to write down what time the engines are started as well as our "take-off" time. I usually just end up listing the military time in my civilian logbook. I'm MEDEVAC, so especially when in theater, we're up in the AM doing our engine HIT checks, then shutting down and on standby. Could technically log the time the a/c is running, but is it really worth that extra .2 or .3? I still find myself torn on the issue! I certainly used to log it doing maintenance ground runs as a CFII in robbies!

 

- Jeremy

 

 

Rick,

 

I have been confronted with the same dilemma time and again. The Part 1 vs. Part 61 PIC debate.

 

Infact, I lost out on a job when I left active duty because I only counted PC and IP time as 'PIC' in my logbooks and resume. I had 872 hours of PIC and IP time.... they wanted 1000, no less. I guess I should have counted half of my 500 CoPilot/Gunner time. Guys growing up in Robbies/Schweitzer log time with a CFI as PIC after PVT. I.E. two people logging PIC at the same time. I did it in fixed wing world and understand the system. Not wrong, just different.

 

Multiple people told me to use the '50% rule' but I didn't want to. I will always wonder what if on that one.

 

Well, a few years and a several heated discussions later, I have come to this conclusion: It depends on who is interviewing you, what they need/want, what the hiring climate is, and how well you can verbalize the explain the FAR's, the AR's, and your reasoning for how you logged the flights.

 

What I have decided on is to convert every logbook entry to a LogBook Pro file and keep them accurate as to how I logged each flight at the time I put the pen to paper. I also added PI,PC,IP,N,NG,NS,W,H columns to the Logbook Pro file so that I can now break out Part 1 pic time, Part 61 pic time, and also N versus NG versus NS versus FAR Night times. As far as I know there is no way to log NVG or NVS in the civilian world per FAR. Several employers want Night 'Unaided'... but there is only 'Night' in the FARs. Additionally, frustrating as it is we can't log Hood time and Night time on the '-12' at the same time. But you don't want to lose that on your resume in the civilian world. There fore I capture everything via Logbook Pro with several added columns. I log each flight by both FAR and AR 95-1 standards. It is not perfect but Logbook Pro is something that you can tailor to help you get the most out of what you fly. Honestly, you can accomplish a lot of the same things with an Excell doc that you generate yourself. Less functionality than Logbook Pro, but no cost other than the time to create it.

 

Again, my interpretation/opinion is that I log/logged PIC when I was Current, Qualified and flying an aircraft not certified requiring two pilots. The -64A requires two pilots so I was either PIC or SIC. Furthermore, while flying as an airline pilot I logged SIC because the aircraft (CRJ) required a PIC and a SIC. I was one or the other. Flying an OH-58A etc requires only one pilot. If I was on the controls in a Scooter (God Love 'em), I logged it as PIC if I was the PI for the flight. If I was PC the whole flight is PIC. (Here's my current conundrum: I hold a CFII-MEI & CFI-RH. If I fly as PI on a helicopter flight...during the flight I show the PC tips, techniques, and teach them...Can I log it as Instructor on the civilian side?)

 

Bottom Line: Have a Resource for capturing the entire scope of each flight. A 759 will not do that alone. It is more official because it requires several eyes and your Commander for approval. But, it is not lined up with the FARs. Protect your career. Read the AR's and FARs word for word. Resist the temptation to short change your flight times under pressure from people that are ignorant.

[rick1128]

Rick, Thanks for your PM. However it created more questions than answers. Having been on the other side of the desk, I would have you either your DOD forms or a logbook. Maybe both. As far as logging flight time, it was my understanding that you would only log from wheels off to wheels on. Or is that just an Air Force thing? In the civilian world it is when the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight. So under the FAR's you could taxi out, start your takeoff roll and abort the takeoff and still log that as flight time. In the civilian world, all the wheeled helicopters I have dealt with, had their hobbs meter working off a microswitch on the collective. Because taxiing requires at least a little collective, the hobbs meter would show flight time for periods of time the helicopter was just taxiing. It is interesting to note that there are two different 'flight times' in the FARs. One is pilot time, which is described above and then there is maintenance flight time, which is lift off to touchdown. Most aircraft use a hobbs meter to record maintenance time. Plus there are many flight schools that will use two hobbs meters one for maintenance and one for charging the student.

 

As for who logs what, it really depends. If you were assigned as the aircraft commander, I would say that you could log all the flight time as PIC, no matter if you handle the controls or not. If assigned as the second pilot, you could only log PIC for those times you actually handled the controls. If assigned as an instructor, you would be able to log all the time as PIC. As for a single pilot aircraft, if your commanders assigned you to act as a pilot on a single pilot ship, even as an SIC, you can log the time under FAA regs. It has to do with qualifications. Under 91 a co-pilot is not required to be typed, etc to be an SIC. In aircraft greater than 12,500 lbs, the SIC must has some training under Part 91. Under Part 135 to be an SIC the pilot must have been trained and check in accordance with the company manuals and the FARs. It is my understanding that the military is quite similar in this. So under 135 if the company assigns a current and qualified pilot as an SIC on an aircraft that normally does not require an SIC, because the company assigned this pilot, the pilot now just became a required crew member. And I would say the same would apply to military time.

 

I have run into several military and former military pilots who kept a separate civilian logbook for their military flying and kept the times in accordance with the FARs. I have seen many military pilots use a conversion factor to convert from military to civilian. Personally I don't have a major issue with that, as long as the factor is reasonable and consistent.

[Gomer Pylot]

The time when you're not on the controls is CP/SIC time. It counts as flight time, but not PIC time. An exception is that if you're the designated PIC in an aircraft which requires two pilots by regulation, you can log the entire time as PIC. The CP/SIC can also log PIC time for the time he manipulates the controls. Theoretically, both pilots could log the time for the entire flight, if the SIC did all the flying. For normal flights, where the time at the controls is split 50/50, the PIC can log all the time, and the CP/SIC can log the time he flies, and also log the rest of the time as CP/SIC.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational,

private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for

that flight time during which that person--

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which

the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command

of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type

certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight

is conducted.

[iChris]

Another thing to create some discussion: When to start logging time, civilian vs. military. Civilian side: It's when the engine is started, military when you start moving the aircraft(either ground or hover taxi.) I now make it a habit to write down what time the engines are started as well as our "take-off" time. I usually just end up listing the military time in my civilian logbook. I'm MEDEVAC, so especially when in theater, we're up in the AM doing our engine HIT checks, then shutting down and on standby. Could technically log the time the a/c is running, but is it really worth that extra .2 or .3? I still find myself torn on the issue! I certainly used to log it doing maintenance ground runs as a CFII in robbies!

 

- Jeremy

 

"Civilian side: It's when the engine is started"

One of those myths thats been around a long time. Lots of flight schools like it because the meter (money) starts when the rotors start turning. Also the instructors get that additional .2 hrs each flight.

FAA's interpretation is when the aircraft starts moving under its own power.

 

REF: FAA Chief Counsel's Interpretation (Lloyd)

 

 

Edited January 22, 2011 by iChris

[iChris]

Theoretically, both pilots could log the time for the entire flight, if the SIC did all the flying. For normal flights, where the time at the controls is split 50/50, the PIC can log all the time, and the CP/SIC can log the time he flies, and also log the rest of the time as CP/SIC.

 

 

Take note, true statement that many miss out on.

 

REF: FAA Chief Counsel's Interpretation (Carpenter)

 

 

Edited January 22, 2011 by iChris

[Bootcamp]

This discussion generates a new question as well...

 

Suppose you are a rated civilian helicopter pilot and then enlist in the military. When you go down to Ft. Rucker and do your initial military training in the TH-57, can you log all of that time (as the sole manipulator of the controls) as PIC, even though in the eyes of the US Army, you are not a rated pilot?

[Gomer Pylot]

Yep. If you're a licensed pilot and manipulating the controls, you can log pilot time. What the Army calls it is immaterial for civilian logging.

[Rick.]

Thx BillyBob, Gomer (great handle), rick1128 and all for your explanations/thoughts.

 

This sums it up pretty good:

 

I have come to this conclusion: It depends on who is interviewing you, what they need/want, what the hiring climate is, and how well you can verbalize the explain the FAR's, the AR's, and your reasoning for how you logged the flights.

...

Bottom Line: Have a Resource for capturing the entire scope of each flight.

[mrjibbs]

Here's another situation that I am stuck on. I am a rated civilian helicopter CFII, and also an enlisted Crew Chief on hawks. So, I am a rated pilot, siting at a designated crew member station. Can I log my flight time as just that, flight time? I understand I cant log PIC or SIC, but I can log general flight time to be added to my total flight time? Like I said, I am fully aware of what it takes to log PIC/SIC, but I am just looking at overall flight time because I am at a required crew member station, performing essential crew member duties. I understand crew members in Skycranes are in a similar situation and they log flight time, so is that along the same lines? I may be mistaken on this as the FAR's leave plenty of room for interpretation, as usual, so that's why I am asking.

Edited March 25, 2011 by mrjibbs