Gen. knowledge - Talk to me!

[flingwing206]

OK it's my turn. Here's a series of radio exchanges between a helicopter pilot (P) and the tower (T) at a class 'D' airport.

Spot the improper phrasology and protocols used (note, both pilot and ATC make mistakes).

 

(after the runup, pilot makes their initial call)

 

P: "Flying Cloud Tower, helicopter 367RW in the northeast corner, departing to the west"

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, stand by"

 

P: "Stand by, 367RW"

 

(a few moments pass)

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, taxi to 28R, clear to take off 28R"

 

P: "Clear to take off, 7RW"

 

(now we're returning, we're 6 miles SW of the airport at 700' AGL)

 

P: "Flying Cloud Tower, 367RW, 6 miles out for the northeast corner"

 

T: "367RW, ident"

 

P" "Identing"

 

T: "367RW, radar contact, report downwind for 28L. Wind 300 at 7, altimeter 29.88"

 

P: "wind 300 at 7, report downwind, 7RW"

 

(time passes)

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, no need for the report, you going to the northeast corner?"

 

P: "Affirmative"

 

T: "367RW, you have the Champ on short final for 28R?"

 

P: "Got 'em"

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, reference the Champ, clear to land northeast corner"

 

P: "Clear to land"

 

Have at it!

[alasvegascfi]

OK it's my turn. Here's a series of radio exchanges between a helicopter pilot (P) and the tower (T) at a class 'D' airport.

Spot the improper phrasology and protocols used (note, both pilot and ATC make mistakes).

 

(after the runup, pilot makes their initial call)

 

P: "Flying Cloud Tower, helicopter 367RW in the northeast corner, departing to the west"

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, stand by"

 

P: "Stand by, 367RW"

 

(a few moments pass)

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, taxi to 28R, clear to take off 28R"

 

P: "Clear to take off, 7RW"

 

(now we're returning, we're 6 miles SW of the airport at 700' AGL)

 

P: "Flying Cloud Tower, 367RW, 6 miles out for the northeast corner"

 

T: "367RW, ident"

 

P" "Identing"

 

T: "367RW, radar contact, report downwind for 28L. Wind 300 at 7, altimeter 29.88"

 

P: "wind 300 at 7, report downwind, 7RW"

 

(time passes)

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, no need for the report, you going to the northeast corner?"

 

P: "Affirmative"

 

T: "367RW, you have the Champ on short final for 28R?"

 

P: "Got 'em"

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, reference the Champ, clear to land northeast corner"

 

P: "Clear to land"

 

Have at it!

 

I used to fly out of ANOKA, so this does not suprise me a bit. - It must be the cold weather and the altitude that those ATC controllers sit at in those ATC towers.

Edited March 3, 2006 by alasvegascfi

[Guest pokey]

Tell ya the truth? this sounds like a typical lazy sunday afternoon at the tower & a just as lazy joyride by the pilot, (who obviously talks to the tower on a regular basis). As far as "mistakes" go? There is no ground control? no ATIS? northeast is a "well known" airport location? departing to the west , form where? the runway? from right here? & on way back in? no need to say altitude--he has ya on radar? IF this were a busy day? i would be a bit leary Arent you supposed to say aircraft type OR "november" on initial callup ( on your way back in) And to shorten call sign? only by ATC? Reference the champ & land?---"Roger tower i wont run into him"

[johnnyseko]

Alright, been a while since I've visited the forum so here goes....

 

-Pilot doesnt identify the runway he's cleared to t/o from

-pilot shortens his registration, but atc didnt on the callback so pilot shouldnt

-tower doesnt tell him left or right traffic for downwind

-'Got 'em' should be more 'traffic in sight'

-what is reference the Champ? maintain visual seperation?

-pilot doesnt advise where he is clear to land to

 

I'm sure I missed a few....

 

Recent flight fling?

[West Coaster]

What? They make you chaps taxi around and use runways? I had no idea.

[flingwing206]

You got some of them, gang, but missed a few zingers (some would not affect safety of flight, but still make me cringe).

 

Don't worry, all this was not overheard (or spoken) as written - mostly just a "greatest hits".

 

BTW, here at KFCM, the northeast corner is in fact well known - it is the helicopter 'hood, in fact - with a crew of mosquito control B47/Soloys, Fox 9's ENG 206, and our training fleet. Most times if you say "helicopter inbound for landing", they automatically clear you to the NE corner.

 

As far as the taxi to and clear to take off Runway 28R, what they want is that we launch from our ramp and do our departure out over 28R, so in essence we are departing from the ramp (the numbers of 28R are about 300' from our pads).

[joker]

Nice one Fling!

 

As you probably know I am a stickler for correct phraseology in aviation. So many aircraft accidents are attributed to miscommunication, the worst being the Tennerife accident.

 

As an instructor, I think it is important to 'model' good RT technique, and as students it is important to use correct technique.

 

The conversation in your scenario could (as someone said) be the transcript from 'just any other day' but it is riddled with errors.

 

So here is my take. Note: I'm not at home, so haven't got my usual host of resources. So I might have things a little wrong.

 

 

 

P: "Flying Cloud Tower, helicopter 367RW in the northeast corner, departing to the west"

 

This is an intial call up. Strictly speaking (!) this should have a full callsign which includes the country designator. As Fling mentioned, the northeast corner is an accepted location on the field, so no problems there. Just an added point though, usually if a helicopter made this sort of request, then he is asking for a present position departure in the stated direction.

 

Someone mentioned an ATIS call here. If the field has ATIS then yes, it should be mentioned in the intial call, but my suspicion (based on the following communications where the controller gives wind and altimeter settings) is that this field does not have ATIS.

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, stand by"

 

P: "Stand by, 367RW"

 

Stand by! I never acknowledge a stand by request from the tower. The reason why he asks you to stand by is because he's busy. Maybe he is talking on the phone, maybe there is a more important call that he wants to make! - If you're asked to 'stand by' then do exactly that!

 

(a few moments pass)

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, taxi to 28R, clear to take off 28R"

 

P: "Clear to take off, 7RW"

 

Maybe someone can confirm this for me by listening to a US ATIS, but at the end doesn't it say something like 'Read back all taxi instructions, hold short instructions and runway assignments"? This pilot was given taxi instructions and a runway assignment and did not read it back.

 

What is more, the controler did not insist on a readback from the pilot. Controllers are required to get the readback according to the book 7110.65 So he's at fault there.

 

Lastly, the pilot shortens his callsign when there is no evidence that the controler has done.

 

(now we're returning, we're 6 miles SW of the airport at 700' AGL)

 

P: "Flying Cloud Tower, 367RW, 6 miles out for the northeast corner"

 

This is useless information to the controller. When giving his location the pilot should reference the airfield using the cardinal compass points. "I'm 6 miles south east." Based on what Fling said, I am allowing a little 'local' experience here, because the pilot has not properly stated his intentions. Does he want to do a full stop / landing to the north east corner? Also, depending on what local etiquette is, he might have included his altitude too.

 

Also this is an initial call up so full callsign must be used. ATIS?

 

T: "367RW, ident"

 

P" "Identing"

 

T: "367RW, radar contact, report downwind for 28L. Wind 300 at 7, altimeter 29.88"

 

Ha almost missed this! I may be wrong, but I think 7110.65 says that when controllers have identified an aircraft on radar, the should provide the radar location information to the pilot. e.g. "367RW, radar contact six miles southwest of..."

 

P: "wind 300 at 7, report downwind, 7RW"

 

When reading back information, there are some items which should be read back and some which don't need to be. Here the pilot read back the wind, which is not really necessary. However, he did not read back the runway assignment or altimerter setting which are much more important. Again, he shortened his callsign before the controller did.

(time passes)

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, no need for the report, you going to the northeast corner?"

 

Did the pilot miss his required position report.

 

Here is a really subtle example of how it is possible for miscommunication in English. Consider the phrase above. It's meaning is totally reliant on the tone that the controller uses! It could be a question or it could be a statement, depending on where the inflection is made. A rearrangement of the sentence is needed here.

 

If it was a question, it shows that this controller is not in possitive control of his airspace!

 

P: "Affirmative"

 

Personally I would have clarified what the controller was saying in his last, by asking or by adding a little more in my reply that would resolve the abiguity.

 

T: "367RW, you have the Champ on short final for 28R?"

 

Again this is an ambiguous sentence...see above.

 

P: "Got 'em"

 

Hilarious! I have heard some great replies to traffic reports in the past (tally-ho, no joy, got em on the fishfinder, well, he's mighty big in my window, etc..etc, ).

 

But actaully there are only TWO acceptable responses to traffic reports. 'Traffic in sight' or 'Negative Contact' (See PGC). If negative contact you can attach a little more such as, 'Negative contact, looking' or 'Negative contact, request new heading for avoidance'.

 

A real pet hate is when pilots use the term 'Traffic not in sight'. How close is this to 'Traffic in sight'!? Similarly, some pilots when spotting the traffic, say 'contact'. But this is close to 'negative contact'. That is exactly why to 'completely different' phrases are listed in the PCG.

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, reference the Champ, clear to land northeast corner"

 

If this was meant to be a runway landing than, of course the runway should be mentioned here. However, very often helicopters can land direct to the ramp.

P: "Clear to land"

In lieu of the runway assigment, I would probably still mention my intended landing spot on the field. The pilot misses a callsign readback.

 

That's about the best I can do on the fly. What do you say Fling? I would love to provide references to what I have said, but as mentioned, I'm not at home for a couple of days.

 

Joker

[flingwing206]

(now we're returning, we're 6 miles SW of the airport at 700' AGL)

 

P: "Flying Cloud Tower, 367RW, 6 miles out for the northeast corner"

 

This is useless information to the controller. When giving his location the pilot should reference the airfield using the cardinal compass points. "I'm 6 miles south east." Based on what Fling said, I am allowing a little 'local' experience here, because the pilot has not properly stated his intentions. Does he want to do a full stop / landing to the north east corner? Also, depending on what local etiquette is, he might have included his altitude too.

 

Also this is an initial call up so full callsign must be used. ATIS?

 

T: "367RW, ident"

 

P" "Identing"

...oh my, "identing"...

T: "367RW, radar contact, report downwind for 28L. Wind 300 at 7, altimeter 29.88"

 

Ha almost missed this! I may be wrong, but I think 7110.65 says that when controllers have identified an aircraft on radar, the should provide the radar location information to the pilot. e.g. "367RW, radar contact six miles southwest of..."

 

P: "wind 300 at 7, report downwind, 7RW"

 

When reading back information, there are some items which should be read back and some which don't need to be. Here the pilot read back the wind, which is not really necessary. However, he did not read back the runway assignment or altimerter setting which are much more important. Again, he shortened his callsign before the controller did.

(time passes)

 

T: "Helicopter 367RW, no need for the report, you going to the northeast corner?"

 

If it was a question, it shows that this controller is not in possitive control of his airspace![/color][/i]

This whole thing started with the pilot's omission of the word "helicopter" in the initial call-up. Tower assumes it's an airplane, hence the downwind assignment for the runway. Once the controller sees that the radar blip has turned into a helicopter, he asks about the northeast corner - given how our airport operates, this is a normal response. Also the wind and altimeter info is because the pilot didn't report ATIS (and the controller was feeling generous).

Hilarious! I have heard some great replies to traffic reports in the past (tally-ho, no joy, got em on the fishfinder, well, he's mighty big in my window, etc..etc, ).

I've been downwind in the pattern and when tower called us out for an inbound Citation turning final for the parallel, the Citation replied "got 'em on the fishfinder". Now that's a heck of a place to be looking on final...

T: "Helicopter 367RW, reference the Champ, clear to land northeast corner"

Generally, the 'reference' call is if you are air-taxiing and there is traffic on the ground. Since the Champ was airborne, this isn't proper.

 

Joker, you're my hero of the airwaves. So keep the spinning side up and the dirty side down and we'll catch you on the rebound, good buddy!