Leaving a helicopter with engine and rotor engaged

[Torfinn]

I believe that in some situations it's common for the pilot to just tighten the control frictions and leave the helicopter with the engine running and the rotor engaged. I've been told that this is done because it takes too much time and money to keep shutting down and powering up the helicopter all the time if the pilot has to exit the machine often.

 

To me, this sounds incredibly dangerous, and I would never do it. I've always been taught never to let go of the controls before the engine is shut down and the rotor is turning so slowly that nothing can happen.

 

It would be interesting to hear your opinions on this.

[warpig]

i have seen it done alot. not in a 22 but in a 206 and up. some ems operations do that and i have seen the miami dolphins 430 do that a few times when picking people up.

[NavyBlue007]

One day my when I was preflighting I saw a guy fly up in an R44, land,  leave it up and running, and then run over to help the fuel truck guy out because the fuel truck was having some engine problems.  My instructor and I watched this, and both agreed it was incredibly dangerous, especially because the R44 could not have been more than 10 feet from the fence.  I've also seen a B206 pilot do it while refueling at our airport too.

[flingwing206]

I voted in the "not likely" catagory because under most circumstances, anytime the rotors are turning fast enough to cause harm, a pilot should be at the controls - even with real control locks, stuff happens - fuel control units fail, hydraulics get a mind of their own, whatever.

 

However, a time may come - imagine you are alone at the controls and here comes running a bunch of unsupervised kids - do you start a shutdown and hope that in the two to five minutes it takes for the rotors to stop nobody finds the tail rotor, or do you take it to ground idle, lock the controls, and make the scene safe?

[HH60Pilot]

I put 'No, I don't think so.' I have never thought of doing it and I can't think of a situation of when I would do it, but I can never say never.

 

Doug

[Eric Hunt]

There are many situations where it is applicable, usually when time means loss of property or life.

 

On bushfire ops, it is common to carry only a light fuel load - to maximise water load - so refuelling happens every 30 mis or so. In Oz, it is reasonably common to be doing this on your own - land next to the fuel drum which already has a pump installed, leap out and pump in the required amount, back in the seat (after quickly relieving bladder pressure) and airborne again after maybe 3 minutes. You couldn't shut down and start up again that quickly.

 

Similarly, your bucket may develop a fault with a line snagged, and you have to put down to free it. The people on the firefront depend on a regular drop of water, and you cannot indulge yourself in the pleasantries of shutdowns and startups. Anyway, you would increase the chance of hot end damage and use up the start cycles.

 

Idle RRPM, friction it up, and be quick.

 

However with a machine like the S76 I would not do it - the cyclic trim is electric not mechanical, and the autopilot has a sad habit of moving the disc around on the ground if you are not careful. Besides, the disc is too low at the front, specially when the blades are turning and the static stops are out.

[Wally]

Leaving the controls with the rotor turning should only be done when the risk warrants it. Convenience is not sufficient justification.

[Fly for food]

I would be interested to know what any NTSB report would say about the pilot leaving the controls with the rotors running.  With their infallible hindsight I guess it would be easy for them to say that the only place a pilot should be while the rotors are turning is at the controls. (blame can hardly be attached then if you landed in the correct place)

 

It is an interesting point though.  Lets say kids are running around your tail rotor when you land and you are solo what is the correct action according to the NTSB?

1) Stay at the controls and inform ATC (if there is one)?

2) Friction down, get out and kick their buts?

3) lean out of the door and shout?

 

When we were loading  passengers who were often drunk after a Formula 1 Race, we were taught that if someone strays real close to a tail rotor stay real quiet - this prevents them from whirling round to see who is shouting and accidently moving into a moving part....

 

If there are any NTSB guys out there....please post.

::devil::

[John Eacott]

Australian CAO95.7.7 covers the pilot leaving the controls of the helicopter with blades running.  There are conditions, but no reasons required apart from the safety of the helicopter or people on or around the helicopter; link is here.

 

"Eric Hunt" refers to not leaving an S76: this is specific in 95.7, since the exemption is only allowed in skid helicopters, and those with a serviceable means of locking the cyclic and collective.  An S76 wouldnot meet these conditions.

[Eric Hunt]

Hey, John,

 

I didn't say that I was "allowed" to do it in a 76, just that i "wouldn't" do it.

 

There is a difference... we have all done things which we were not allowed to do, we just weighed up the possibilities of something going wrong against the pressing need to do it.

[helidoc]

In the past I would have said never, but that was when I flew a piston that had a mechanical or electrical engagement and it was easy enough to disengage the rotor from the engine and let the engine idle if necessary. Now that I fly a turbine I can't disengage the rotor. To shut things down and then start things up quickly relies on a good battery and risk of a hot start. This weekend I had a situation where, although I was uncomfortable about it, I set the throttle to idle, locked the collective, and got out to get some instructions. I then quickly got back in and resumed control. I was very nervous the whole time and probably the next time will think things through in advance so I am not put in that position again. All part of the learning process of a lower time pilot I guess.

 

It also reminds me of a situation where a mechanic who was working on one of the R22's I trained on. He had the helicopter running with the rotor engaged and was standing on the outside of the cabin. As he reached in to the cabin his belt apparently caught on the collective, lifting the helicopter into the air. He fell out of it one way and the helicopter went the other and crashed. I nervously climbed over my collective this weekend! ::bowdown::

[pod]

In most ops manuals it says you can leave the controls but not leave the machine unattended. operationaly we are always landing to run out to the end of the long line to retrieve you net from the load you just placed down to head back for another. you leave the controls to connect your hook up to your next load, you leave your controlos to throw a bit more fuel in the machine, you leave your controls to jump out and receive brief instructions from the site boss who lives at the camp and then back up the mountain you go to continue on your job. I am not saying this is right for every situation but it does happen regularly. If I am not level or I am unhappy about the rigging of my machine ie: the collective has been set to light or there is high gusting winds I wouldnt leave the controls. but that is why we have had training and gained experience to be able to choose the correct situations to do all sorts of things that may be suitable for one job but totally unsuitable for the next. This is just my opinion

[Flying Bull]

Hi there,

a very interesting topic!

I think, it depends not only on the situation - it depends also on the helicopter.

I learned flying with the armed forces - and checking out your confined area after landing was part of the training - so no worries from that side.

You´ll have to be aware, that it could be dangerous - but that´s crossing a road as well ;-)

If you have time to shut down - and you can be sure, that you get your helicopter running again - no reason to leave it running.

If you´re engaged in a mission - time is important - you had starting difficulties etc. - it is a consideration

 

Greetings "Flying Bull"

[brimed]

I downloaded a video from the Eurocopter USA website.  In it, it shows a California Sheriff's department on an EMS training exercise.  Both the pilot and co-pilot/EMT are out of the helicopter working on a "patient" and the helicopter is clearly running and unattended.

[SuperF]

We do it all the time.  Hot refuelling, as per oz fires, receiving instructions from clients, on ag or lifting ops, loading passengers for tourist flights.  It is all legal in NZ as long as someone is in control of the machine.  Interesting tho an EC120 fell off a mountain after some tourists and the pilot got out a couple of years ago and they had to be picked up by another machine.  I don't think anyone was too happy about that and it certainly made us look at our ops to see if we were doing everything we could to keep safe.  I don't know of an operator within NZ that doesn't leave the machine running while outside of it, however most have a pilot very close able to jump in in case something happens.  Obviously as in the case of the EC120, sometimes that may not be close enough.  Don't think that I will ever stop doing it but certainly makes you think.  From our experience the Oz fire bosses don't mind you refuelling but they require you to be close to your heli, ie don't go into a shop and buy a pie while it is running, which i think is fair enough.

[Torfinn]

I was reading through the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-21) earlier today, and stumbled over this little paragraph:

 

"Many helicopter operators have been lured into a "quick turnaround" ground operation to avoid delays at airport terminals and to minimize stop/start cycles of the engine. As part of this quick turnaround, the pilot might leave the cockpit with the engine and rotors turning. Such an operation can be extremely hazardous if a gust of wind disturbs the rotor disc, or the collective flight control moves causing lift to be generated by the rotor system. Either occurrence may cause the helicopter to roll or pitch, resulting in a rotor blade striking the tailboom or the ground. Good operating procedures dictate that pilots remain at the flight controls whenever the engine is running and the rotors are turning." (Emphasis is mine)

 

This makes me recall something our former Chief Flight Instructor said a while ago. It was something along the lines of, "you might save some money by leaving the helicopter unattended with the rotor engaged in some situations, but that one time when something happens to the helicopter, the loss will be far greater than the gain". So many things could happen (and according to Murphy's Law, they will). Two factors - wind and failure of the control frictions - were mentioned in the quote above. Another factor that I can see, off the top of my head, would be people approaching the unattended machine and getting themselves hurt (or worse). Here in Norway, this practice is just about unheard of, because all operators that I know of carry one pilot and one ground crewman, just to avoid these situations. I know I'd never leave a helicopter under my care unattended while idling with the rotor engaged, unless there was some kind of an emergency that forced me to do it.

 

(DISCLAIMER: I am in no way trying to bash those who routinely exit their idling helicopters to perform work-related tasks when they are out doing their job, provided they do it safely. I'm just a 131-hour student pilot, so I can't speak from experience. I have only my common sense, my training, and the advice given to me by my instructors to go by, and -I- myself would never do it (apart from, as I stated above, in an emergency). So this is, as they say, just my two cents... ::peace:: Fly safe!)

[Arcus1]

Didn't we flog this topic to death a while back? Those who say "never" have obviously never done anything but airport to airport type flying. Safety considerations aside, there are many types of flying where you simply cannot work effectively if you have to shut down every time that you need to get out. I am talking SPECIFICALLY in the utility/bush environment. We need more replies from real world pilots who are out there doing the kind of work I am refering to. No offence to the students out there but until you've been in this business awhile you really shouldn't be posting opinions about topics you , and I dare say your instructor(s), know little about. More questions and less opinion and you'll learn a lot more.

This post not designed to piss people off but I can see how it might. Apologies to the sensitive types......

[Torfinn]

Arcus1,

 

From what you post, I suppose your comments are mainly meant for me, and would therefore warrant a response from me.

 

Didn't we flog this topic to death a while back?

Apparently not.

 

Those who say "never" have obviously never done anything but airport to airport type flying.

Do you have any evidence to back up such a blatant generalization? The attitude reflected in my above post is unanimous among the instructors that I've spoken to, and some of them have several thousand flying hours in helicopters, and have "been there, done that".

 

Safety considerations aside, there are many types of flying where you simply cannot work effectively if you have to shut down every time that you need to get out. I am talking SPECIFICALLY in the utility/bush environment.

Well, it seems to work fine in this country. But as I said, many of those who fly utility here in Norway carry their own ground crew with them, who can hot fuel the helicopter and take care of things on the ground. Of course, getting out of the helicopter with everything spinning is a common practice in some places, and opinions are divided. I guess this is one of those areas where we just have to agree to disagree.

 

We need more replies from real world pilots who are out there doing the kind of work I am refering to.

The last time I looked, there were plenty of such replies to this post.

 

No offence to the students out there but until you've been in this business awhile you really shouldn't be posting opinions about topics you , and I dare say your instructor(s), know little about.

No offense taken. I also hope you will take no offence from the fact that I'll be posting my opininons on this board when I feel like it, regardless of what others think about them. If I'm wrong, or if you disagree, then tell me. I can take it. Just don't tell me to be a good boy and shut up. I'm far too opinionated for that... :cool: As for your comments about my instructors, see above.

 

More questions and less opinion and you'll learn a lot more.

Again, see above.

 

This post not designed to piss people off but I can see how it might. Apologies to the sensitive types......

Actually, I don't feel very "pissed off", nor do I feel very sensitive, so there is no need for an apology as far as I'm concerned. I doubt that there will ever be a unanimous agreement on this matter, so I say we discuss the options, make our choices and live with the consequences.

 

Safe flight!

[Arcus1]

In no particular order:

This topic was flogged to death a while back. As you have been a member since September, I would suggest "a while" could just indicate a little more than three months.

[flingwing206]

Arcus1

 

Group: Members

Posts: 4

Joined: Oct. 2004

====

 

Your point being?

[Arcus1]

Welcome,

.....being that a very similar thread was posted earlier this year, to which I made similar comments, and that our friend perhaps should have made a search to see, assuming it's possible on this site.

Regarding your search of my profile, thanks, it's nice to know someone cares. I returned from a season way up north in September and had to re-register due to being "dormant" for so long. You see, it can be really difficult to get on line when you're in the middle of the boonies and your only source of electricity is a very dodgy generator and the customer gets a litle upset when you plug your laptop into his sat phone.

Now if only I had one of those handy norwegian ground crew types........hhmmmm, there's a thought for next season.

[Arcus1]

Forgive me, I should know to address a VIP member as Sir....or Maam.

[Torfinn]

.....being that a very similar thread was posted earlier this year, to which I made similar comments, and that our friend perhaps should have made a search to see, assuming it's possible on this site.

I just made a thorough search, and all I can find is a thread by Heli-Ops, made in late 2002 in the Safety forum, named Getting Out With The Blades Turning. However, this can't be the thread you're talking about, as you haven't replied to this one (unless you've been using a different alias, of course). Besides, one thread with seven replies hardly means a topic has been "flogged to death".

 

It would be interesting to see this thread you are referring to. What was it called, and in which forum was it posted?

[flingwing206]

Hey, Arcus -

 

Just pulling your chain a bit - BTW, the joined/posting info is up next to every message posted, no search needed. All we "VIP's" needed to do was contribute a little something to the running of the website, no skill required, just Pay Pal!

 

And you are right - I go home to a warm apartment every night. To be honest, I can't think of any flying job that would drag me into the boonies at this point...

[lynxpilot]

Transitioned from military to EMS and several of the pilots I did orientation with, who all had prior EMS, referred to such activities.  I was initially under the impression I'd have to do it on a fairly routine basis for scene pickups.  Flying the Astar, we only have a 30 second cool down and I have yet to come across a situation where we were even close to me needing to leave a running helo unattended.  If it were a BO with 2 or 3 minute cool down, I'd probly still feel the same.  With turbine engines, I always like the opportunity to be able to shut them down immediately for problems with lubrication, fires, etc.  Additionally, I have always treated an engaged rotor system as an aircraft in flight.  Gusts, hydraulic problems, engine problems, and a few others make me feel like it would probably never be necessary.  I wouldn't do it.