R22 Gross Weight?

[mechanic]

Since all Robbie's have to have -4 blades now, will the gross weight of all R22's be 1370 lbs now? I was just curious, I don't remember hearing one way or the other. The main reason I ask is the HP and Alpha share the same Lyc O-320-B2C engine, but have different gross weight limits. Could there be a difference in the Trans, Main Shaft, or spindles too that require a lower gross?

 

 

 

Signed,

 

Bored, lol...

[Gomer Pylot]

The max gross weight doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the engine, or the blades. It's just what the manufacturer certified it to, and could be predicated on almost anything, including the skid gear. The limitations are required to be stated in the RFM.

[delorean]

Since all Robbie's have to have -4 blades now, will the gross weight of all R22's be 1370 lbs now? I was just curious, I don't remember hearing one way or the other. The main reason I ask is the HP and Alpha share the same Lyc O-320-B2C engine, but have different gross weight limits. Could there be a difference in the Trans, Main Shaft, or spindles too that require a lower gross?

 

 

 

Signed,

 

Bored, lol...

 

They up'd the gross weigh after the HPs because of the aux tank addition. It used to be 1300 lbs on the standards and HPs, then you add a 10 lb tank + 10 gallons @ 6 lbs/gal = 70 lbs and.......1370 lbs!

 

And it's just like Gomer said, it's just whatever they certify it at. Kind of like what they did with the Raven I vs the Raven II gross weight--they up'd it about 100 lbs because of the heavier engine, didn't they?

[mechanic]

Delorean,

 

The reason for my question has arisen from reading the Brantly and Schw type cert's.

 

 

 

The Brantly B2B can jump up 70lbs gross by using different blades, per NOTE 5 on the type cert.

 

The Schw 269A type cert lists a 50 lbs increase with certain components installed, per the part numbers listed.

 

So on the R22 the -4 blades are mandatory and I also see the Engines that can be upgraded into older models. This should change the gross with these modifications as well as 5 min power rating.

 

 

 

Thanks for your response.

[jehh]

Perhaps the landing gear was different in the older R-22s?

 

Look at the A-Star, one reason it is limited to 4,961 lbs max is because of the landing gear, not because of the engine. You can add another 600lbs if it is slung on an external load, because if the engine quits, that is the first thing leaving the helicopter.

 

The AS-350B3 is the same, the sling load weight went up, but the internal max gross didn't move, because the landing gear didn't change.

[rgsteven]

Out of the loop. Whats this about Robbie's going to 4 blades? Is is an AD or what? Last time I left flt line on Sat I counted 2. What's up?

[flingwing206]

Think "dash" (as in what the -2 blades tended to do). That's -4 blades are the latest version of the R22 blades - still two per ship (if you're lucky).

[justfly]

Out of the loop. Whats this about Robbie's going to 4 blades? Is is an AD or what? Last time I left flt line on Sat I counted 2. What's up?

I just have to believe you meant that tongue-in-cheek. Funny nonetheless.

 

Actually... ...even funnier if you didn't!

[jehh]

Actually, if you replaced the rotor system with a rigid 4 bladed system, and somehow kept the weight reasonable, I think you'd improve the R-22 quite a bit.

 

Thoughts?

[mechanic]

I renewed my R22 POH subscription and included a letter to this subject. I am waiting for a reply. I will let you all know what I am told from RHC on the HP rebuild upgrading to Beta 5 min power and gross weight increases.

 

 

 

Regards.

[mechanic]

Well,

 

I recieved my RHC letter today. It seems they factory can't upgrade the HP airframe to an Alpha or Beta performance. Oh, well didn't hurt a thing to ask. I still think they are just forcing you to purchase a newer model. I did get the 12 year and 2200 hr overhaul spec sheets from the factory, thanks to Mr. Roberto Vela. It lists all part numbers needed to be replaced, plus any old part numbers that are mandatory upgrades per your serial number.

 

If you are wondering, the 12 year overhaul is a min of $45,000, plus any damage, corrosion, and mandatory upgrades.

 

And, the 2200 hr rebuild is $115,000.00 plus any damage, corrosion, and mandatory upgrades.

 

 

 

Later

[delorean]

Is it a 2200 hr "Rebuild" or "Overhaul"? I didn't think they did rebuilds anymore since they were out selling the new ones.

 

Also, as far as the HP upgrade goes, remember how low the tail sat on those? The frame would have been different then. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

[mechanic]

delorean,

 

The RHC letter says Limited Overhaul for the 12 year and the 2200 hour is Overhaul.

 

 

 

Regards

[delorean]

Ok, that's what I thought......If they ever stop producing the R22, maybe they'll bring back the "Rebuild" program. Basically it was your data plate with a new helicopter built around it, for $10,000-$15,000 under a new one. We had a 08/2000 Beta1 rebuild--best R22 I've ever flown (and it cost us $120,000 when the same one new was $132,000). It was the only R22 I've ever flown where I could take my hands off the controls and it would hold a/s & altitude. It was perfect.

[Goldy]

Ok, that's what I thought......If they ever stop producing the R22, maybe they'll bring back the "Rebuild" program. Basically it was your data plate with a new helicopter built around it, for $10,000-$15,000 under a new one. We had a 08/2000 Beta1 rebuild--best R22 I've ever flown (and it cost us $120,000 when the same one new was $132,000). It was the only R22 I've ever flown where I could take my hands off the controls and it would hold a/s & altitude. It was perfect.

 

 

Back about 1990 I toured the factory ( much smaller then). I swear they were drilling out every rivet during the rebuild process....yes, it was like getting a brand new ship. I wonder exactly what they have cut back on? I'll be there in January so I guess I could ask..

[67november]

I wonder exactly what they have cut back on? I'll be there in January so I guess I could ask..

 

I'd say the paperwork to certify each ship

[Superman]

Ok, that's what I thought......If they ever stop producing the R22, maybe they'll bring back the "Rebuild" program. Basically it was your data plate with a new helicopter built around it, for $10,000-$15,000 under a new one. We had a 08/2000 Beta1 rebuild--best R22 I've ever flown (and it cost us $120,000 when the same one new was $132,000). It was the only R22 I've ever flown where I could take my hands off the controls and it would hold a/s & altitude. It was perfect.

 

I agree, I've been flying a factory overhauled Beta, very nice flying ship, smooth and like you say can fly hands off. Was at the factory in June, flew a new Beta II and I didn't think it flew as nice as our Beta.

 

It is a 1986, was overhauled in '96 at 2100 hrs. now has 3100 hrs, maybe you can answer this for me. I've been told that the 12 year/2200 hr overhaul/rebuild isn't "mandatory" on the r-22, only recommended, whereas it is mandatory on the r-44???

 

 

Fly safe

Clark

[delorean]

I agree, I've been flying a factory overhauled Beta, very nice flying ship, smooth and like you say can fly hands off. Was at the factory in June, flew a new Beta II and I didn't think it flew as nice as our Beta.

 

It is a 1986, was overhauled in '96 at 2100 hrs. now has 3100 hrs, maybe you can answer this for me. I've been told that the 12 year/2200 hr overhaul/rebuild isn't "mandatory" on the r-22, only recommended, whereas it is mandatory on the r-44???

Fly safe

Clark

 

 

 

Yeah, if you go to the "Life Limited Components" section of the Maintenance Manual, you won't see "12 years or 2200 hrs" for the R22. That limit is in there for the R44 though. If you look on the bottom of those pages you'll see "FAA CERTIFIED" on those pages. You will find the 12 year RECOMMENDATION in the MM where it talks about the inspections, overhauls, etc (those pages, like the rest of the manual are NOT FAA-certified.)

 

Either way, you won't get insurance if you don't comply with that "recommendation". Just like service bulletins--most insurance policies will require you to comply with them even though the FAA doesn't.

 

BTW, if anyone is confused, the difference between of rebuilt vs. overhaul:

 

Overhaul: Part is inspected and meets "overhaul" specs as defined by the type certificate, manufacturer, whoever

Rebuilt: Part is inspected and tested to the tolerances and limits of "NEW" specs

 

So a "Rebuilt" helicopter is helicopter that is made out of new parts or parts that met "new" specs. So people really need to make sure if the helicopter is "Overhauled" or "Rebuilt" because even though they are used inchangeably a lot, they mean two different things and change the value of helicopters by tens of thousands of dollars.

[Superman]

Overhaul: Part is inspected and meets "overhaul" specs as defined by the type certificate, manufacturer, whoever

Rebuilt: Part is inspected and tested to the tolerances and limits of "NEW" specs

 

Thanks Delorean....that all makes sense to me

 

I assume that also explains the price difference between a "field " overhauled vs. a "factory" overhauled ship.

 

Fly Safe

Clark

[Rob B]

They up'd the gross weigh after the HPs because of the aux tank addition. It used to be 1300 lbs on the standards and HPs, then you add a 10 lb tank + 10 gallons @ 6 lbs/gal = 70 lbs and.......1370 lbs!

 

And it's just like Gomer said, it's just whatever they certify it at. Kind of like what they did with the Raven I vs the Raven II gross weight--they up'd it about 100 lbs because of the heavier engine, didn't they?

 

Increase in gross-wt was certified whe the lower frame assy's were modified to improve tail clearence on the Alfa's (Also needed with the float for the Mariners). Wt and bal also improved with the battery being move from the nose to just behind the firewall in eng area.