Touchdown Autorotation

[jimt]

Hey all,

I usually just read and learn but have to speak up on this. I have been a student of Bob Lyons for a while (40+ hours) and have a great understanding of the type of person he is. Bob does not fly with bravado and never will. He is not a "cowboy" and never will be. He is an engaging, personable man who is willing to have a meaningfull discussion on most any subject. He has an engineering backround and is detail oriented. He does not talk down to anyone and is very considerate of people. This subject kind of went from a discussion about full down autos into something more that included character. There are times that we can agree to disagree and times that we need to. Points of view are just that and we all have a different vantage point in life. I understand both views expressed here and will use them to form my own opinion over time as I am only a student and am still learning. I know Bob doesn't need me to stick up for him on this or any other matter but I feel that this needed to be aired out.

 

Just a student (on the road to CFII),

JimT

[jet trash]

Hey all,

I usually just read and learn but have to speak up on this. I have been a student of Bob Lyons for a while (40+ hours) and have a great understanding of the type of person he is. Bob does not fly with bravado and never will. He is not a "cowboy" and never will be. He is an engaging, personable man who is willing to have a meaningfull discussion on most any subject. He has an engineering backround and is detail oriented. He does not talk down to anyone and is very considerate of people. This subject kind of went from a discussion about full down autos into something more that included character. There are times that we can agree to disagree and times that we need to. Points of view are just that and we all have a different vantage point in life. I understand both views expressed here and will use them to form my own opinion over time as I am only a student and am still learning. I know Bob doesn't need me to stick up for him on this or any other matter but I feel that this needed to be aired out.

 

Just a student (on the road to CFII),

JimT

 

This is how the internet can take on a life of it's own, and shows how many ways a statement can be interpreted.

 

I enjoy a debate based upon facts, and like to see what other opinions on the subject may be. As far as my reply previous it was made in a crewroom at 4:30am this morning as I was preparing to launch out to the west coast (hence some misspellings and gramatical errors). If it appears I may have been a little strong on my comeback, it was. A good rule of thumb on the internet is if you can dish it out be prepared to take it. Bob's retort came at me fairly strong (as he usually does) and it took on a "talk down to the uneducated" type of reply. He makes a good point in that I do not know him, but the same applies this way too. Bob does not know me, my qualifications or background. My original post was from an owners perspective as well as someone activily involved in the industry.

 

I have taught Risk Management and Safety, as well as CRM courses in the past. The "bravado" statement comes from that background, but was not aimed at any one individual, but made as a comment. Once a long time ago I was flying a SA227 Metroliner, and we did our training in the simulators for the type ride. We had a trainer that insisted on the aircraft check out after the sim that the applicant demonstrate V1 cuts in the aircraft, and actually convinced our POI to implement this. He even used the same "but what if it really happens" argument to make his point. Long story short, during the aircraft checkout phase and applicant and this instructor almost rolled inverted above the runway when he simulated the V1 cut. Luckily they survived, and the procedure was deleted and only demonstarted in the simulator afterwards. That instructor was the poster child for "bravado".

 

Anyway, one side sees a half empty glass, the other sees a half full one. One of my favorites is "If we always agree, then someone is not necessary."

 

Take care.

[relyon]

(lot's of good stuff omitted for brevity)...

 

So my conclusion is that the FAA require it at this level for similar reasons that I have stated, rather than because (as some might suggest) they believe that it is a great 'emergency procedure' that will save joe-public, and greatly reduce the number of accidents in the wide world. We all agree that its not.

Thanks for so eloquently stating what I was attempting to but failed at so miserably.

 

OK, onto one other issue that has been brought up. That is the one of the Inspector who chooses not to sit in during fulldown demonstration.

On this matter, I tend to agree with JetTrash. But only because the risk is heightened by their lack of currency in the maneuver. An examiner doesn't get to do these everyday. If I was not current, I wouldn't like someone else who had not been 'certfied' as current to perform that maneuver with me in the helicopter.

You're right on this as well. I'm a frustrated idealist who understands the reality but doesn't like or agree with it. It doesn't seem right to me that an inspector can approve/disapprove a maneuver they may not be able to perform to the standard, but I do know that's the way it is. I'm fortunate and grateful I was able to look [way] up at my examiners abilities in every area/task on my practical tests.

 

Bob

[HH60Pilot]

I own a flightschool, own several helicopters as well as fixed wing. I pay all the bills and maintain the equipment. It's my hard earned money that I have invested, and I really don't care to watch my investment go rolling up into a ball to satisfy some questionable maneuver to make the feds happy.

 

I happen to own a flight school as well and the more fulldown autorotations that the students do, the happier I am about it. The students are paying good money to learn to fly, and learn to do things properly and until they are proficient at the maneuver.

 

I don't know if I could sleep very well at night if somewhere in the future I found out that a graduate of my school was killed trying to perform an autorotation but botched it up at the bottom because he/she wasn't proficient at autos because I was more interested in my profits (like that is even happening) than producing pilots that are the best that they can be.

 

During my time at Ft Rucker, thousands of fulldown autos of every type (straight, 90 degree, and 180 degree) were performed everyday in both TH-55's and Hueys with ever having one of them go rolling up into a ball. My feeling is that the civilian side of the house has blown the risks associated with full down autorotations completely out of proportion. If the instructor is properly trained and proficient, and the student has the skill set to perform the maneuver, then doing an autorotation is no more dangerous than any other maneuver that we do in helicopters. However, having improperly trained instructors that are not proficient is a recipe for disaster.

 

Personally, I'd like to see the FAA mandate some type of required Emergency Procedure recurrency training. I'm not talking about just during a BFR, but something more of a quarterly basis. The Air Force required us to fly a minimum of two EP sorties per quarter to ensure that we could handle any emergency that came along. I had my share of emergencies and never once doubted my, or the crew's, ability to bring the aircraft back safely.

 

Like the old saying goes, "Practice makes perfect."

 

Anyway, that's my two-cents.

 

Doug

[Grant B]

I'm pleased we will have to do and teach full down auto's.

 

There's nothing like learning the real thing. Powering back up at the last minute was comforting but always felt like a cop out and always left a question mark as to whether you would really do a good job or not.

 

If I get in a real auto sometime, as I'm getting closer to the ground, I don't want to be preoccupied and extra concerned worrying about that same question mark.

 

Actually - looking at the design of different helicopters - is the potential damage and cost factor less of a concern for different machines?

 

I haven't yet flown a Schweizer 300 but notice the springs/suspension on the skids. Am I right in assuming this is an advantage over the R22 given the same dynamics or situation?

 

Cheers.

[flingwing206]

-->

I haven't yet flown a Schweizer 300 but notice the springs/suspension on the skids. Am I right in assuming this is an advantage over the R22 given the same dynamics or situation?

Yep - and the 300 has a few others as well.

 

There's no question that the risk of breaking the helicopter is an important factor in deciding when to train touchdowns. If a school has two helicopters and you break one, you've lost 50% of your training fleet. There's also a risk of injury to student and instructor. IMHO, for a private-level student, the risk/benefit analysis does not favor training the touchdown at that level. Realize that most PPL students go right into commercial training. For those that don't, the game changes, especially if they will be flying their own helicopter - but then it's up to them to make the choice - it's their machine so now they assume the ri$k.

 

There's no question that training touchdowns will make you better at touchdowns. The only debatable topic seems to be when to start training them. At our school we've settled on this: at the private level, the pre-solo student will have touchdown demonstrated to them so they understand how to terminate the hover-recovered auto. Before the PPL checkride, the will have at least "participated" in performing one. At the commercial level, they will have practiced touchdowns, at the CFI level they will be trained to proficiency.

[Fly for food]

Isn't this where the arguement about touchdowns fall apart? Unless you train at a good school like Flings the FAA does not require anyone but CFI's to demonstrate a touchdown. Does this mean then that the FAA doesn't care if Private or commercial pilots crash in an engine failure?

 

Lets face it - most career pilots take a CFI to get the hours to get a job, but that maybe isn't the majority of people out there flying helicopters in the GA environment (and I don't have the figures). In other words there are many pilots out there flying in all types of helicopters never having been required to do a touchdown auto. If the touchdown auto is such an important maneuver to the FAA why are they not ensuring that all helicopter pilots can do one - including those who have no intention or may fly for many years without taking a CFI checkride?

 

If current CFI's out there think the touchdown auto is so important why are they not teaching them to all students regardless of the PTS and what the FAA require?- to proficiency. Surely the life of a permenant private pilot is just as important as that of a CFI?

I don't get it.

 

And my take is this. If you teach a power recovery auto correctly and the student is leveling the ship and then pulling in the power somewhere around the 10 ft mark - he will do the same thing without an engine ( out of force of habit) and a fall from 10 ft - 4ft is/can be quite survivable. There is a smaller chance of "crashing" the owners obviously expensive machine in a training environment too.

 

Why not train pilots more to pick the correct landing spot in a forced landing situation; or practice the "suprise element" of an engine failure in flight - 'cos that is the scary bit - not the touchdown as much. Teach that corn fields and ploughed fields look good from the air but may not be the better choice of landing spot because of the surface - teach students by talking about it how to full down a helicopter when you have an engine failure over a forest, or a stretch of water...I think these are more valuable lessons, but whilst remaining in favour of touchdown auto's these can be taught well enough by the owner/chief FI of the school and signed off by that person without having the student demonstrate it in front of a NRI who maybe hasn't got into a 300 in the last 6 months...

 

Agree or disagree - the FAA needs to make up its mind, and keep the NRI's more current in full downs in all parts of the country in R22's and 300c's and any other aircraft they take checkrides in.....I would suggest at least every month.

[DFWFlyer]

At our school we've settled on this: at the private level, the pre-solo student will have touchdown demonstrated to them so they understand how to terminate the hover-recovered auto. Before the PPL checkride, the will have at least "participated" in performing one. At the commercial level, they will have practiced touchdowns, at the CFI level they will be trained to proficiency.

That seems like a rather resonable progression to the training, IMO. By the time I complete my training, I for hope to have sucessfully performed this maneuver at least a few times for 1)to familiarize myself with the mechanics, nuances, ect; and 2) to remove some of the fear from an emergency that can work to compound an already stressful situation into a worse one.

 

Like the old saying goes, "Practice makes perfect."

This is almost true. PERFECT practice makes perfect. In my opinion, doing an auto with a power recovery at the end teaches you how to approach the situation then recover. However in a real life situation, you probably won't have that margin of safety, otherwise you wouldn't be doing an autorotation in the first place.

 

Personally, I'd like to see the FAA mandate some type of required Emergency Procedure recurrency training.

I don't think this is a bad idea as it serves to keep us fresh on our emergency procedure which can reduce the rate of serious injuries or fatalities in accidents. However it would also increase exposure to 'simulated' emergencies, as well as the chance of screwing one up and wrecking the machine or worse. Whether that risk is needless depends on your outlook and is of course debatable.

[scubasteve]

Autos....

 

As far as the civilian side, I understand the side of the house that doesn't see their necessity to be full touchdown autos due to excessive wear on components. I have done a few really ugly autos with spike knock and everything. I also understand the side that wants all to become proficient.

 

The part of the civilian side I don't understand is that the only only be demonstrated. Wouldn't one want to be proficient at this maneuver? I can tell you from experience that one won't do it.

 

I'm a newbie to all of this out here at Ft Rucker and we do auto after auto until proficiency is gained. I completed primary about 3 months ago and did just over 100 auto's. This is not a maneuver that only takes a demo to master.

 

I think they're beneficial to learn. There was an engine failure not too long ago during an auto to a hover which turned to a full auto. Now that I am in my advanced aircraft we terminate to a hover for the same reasons as civilians....high maintenance involved. I guess the 67's are cheaper to repair...

[jehh]

The military does them, but then the military has a larger training budget than the civilian world does, and there is not the liability risk there that the civilian world has.

[Superman]

The military does them, but then the military has a larger training budget than the civilian world does, and there is not the liability risk there that the civilian world has.

 

The National Guard drivers that I talked with the other day said that they didn't do full down autos in the blackhawks anymore, too many being wrecked. Don't know if it was just this unit or all Army blackhawks.

This may be a good question to ask of Delorean, Gomer and others outside of the training world.... do those of you in EMS and the Gulf do full downs on your currency flights in your multi million dollar machines? I know most are multi, and may have totally different procedures (???), was just curious sense aircraft damage and cost seem to be the biggest concerns in the piston training world.

 

 

 

Clark

[yzchopper]

When I was doing my training all CFI applicants had to do full downs but they had to use the 300C and not the robbies due to insurance stuff. I started my training in late August of 2003 and finished on Jan. 29th 2005 and I was required to do ftda's my self and by this time frame we were allowed to do them in the R22 which I did and had no problems with it. I had a total slide of maybe 5ft. I had 5 practice touchdowns prior to my checkride and then the examiner did one first to show how he likes them done, and then I did mine and passed. Fly safe

 

Steve

 

Also the National Guard out of Boise Idaho does full downs in their Blackhawks all the time at the Caldwell airport where I trained with Silverhawk Aviation Academy. So it my be just where you're at??

Fly Safe

 

Steve

[Fly for food]

This may be a good question to ask of Delorean, Gomer and others outside of the training world.... do those of you in EMS and the Gulf do full downs on your currency flights in your multi million dollar machines? I

 

Yep - they do in the GOM. Do them to grass too, 180's and straight in full downs.