The perfect trainer

[Goldy]

Alright, here goes...didnt we do this once before??

 

What attributes make a perfect helicopter trainer?

 

The control similar to a 300 is a good one. Load capacity of a 300 also ( no 240 pound limits !)

 

Not sure the 2 blade design of the R22 is a great thing ( so the 300 wins again)

 

Fuel injection...no carb icing is a must

 

Hate the doorframe of a 300, hate the lack of speed, hate the forward lean

 

Love the R22 basic reliability...the cost, the maintenance costs, the lack of surprises during 100 hr inspections.

 

Love the de-rating of the R22, so the power margin is there (Beta II)

 

What did I miss ??

[Goldy]

What did I miss ??

 

 

Needs to auto like a Bell 47 or 206...in other words, lots of energy, no rotor management needs...

[brushfire21]

Good start Goldy!

 

You hit alot of the things on the nose, here are a few more to add to the list form my little humble opinion:

#1 Need to make sure it has some sex appeal to it or maybe more PC, its easy on the eyes (similiar to the 500's)

#2 In addition to older analog gauges, add in a complimentary Glass Cockpit becuase that is where the industry is heading it seems.

#3 For a powerplant maybe an upgraded lighter weight 4-stroke or or preferably maybe a new light weight turbo diesel for better DA's and more torque.

#4 Similiar Canopy to the 300, but better vis where the door frame is. Second Goldy's opinion here.

#5 All weather rotor hub.

 

Theres a start for some things from my list.

[Superman]

1. Turbine powered

2. Purchase price under $200,000.00

3. Insurable (low cost)

4. Operating (rental) cost under $300.00 HR

5. Instrument certified

6. Reliable (easy to maintain)

7. Articulated rotor

8 Useful load of 600 lb. with full fuel

7. Someplace to carry something (bags, cargo etc.)

8. 2.5 hour range

9. 100 kt cruise speed

10. Cute blonde copilot

 

Yep, that should do it.

 

Fly Safe

Clark

[Goldy]

1. Turbine powered

2. Purchase price under $200,000.00

3. Insurable (low cost)

4. Operating (rental) cost under $300.00 HR

5. Instrument certified

6. Reliable (easy to maintain)

7. Articulated rotor

8 Useful load of 600 lb. with full fuel

7. Someplace to carry something (bags, cargo etc.)

8. 2.5 hour range

9. 100 kt cruise speed

10. Cute blonde copilot

 

Yep, that should do it.

 

Fly Safe

Clark

 

Clark- I want just one stick of what you have been smoking.

 

I forgot to add the R22 governor/correlator. Between those two, what a great mechanism to manage rotor rpm....does a great job. I find myself always looking at the rpm gauge in the 300. Now the B47 all you have to do is listen with your ears..

[joker]

Very slight topic diversion:

 

Clarke,

 

that list would be nice, but it sounds like a list for your dream copter!

 

On a serious note:

 

add in a complimentary Glass Cockpit becuase that is where the industry is heading it seems.

 

add the R22 governor/correlator.

 

 

I have always wondered about these in trainers.

 

Take the 'glass cockpit' idea. When I left the US, the 300CBi was coming out with the Garmin 430 GPS built in. It had a beautiful moving map, and a database filled with all the approaches, holds, frequencies, airspace boundaries and anything else they could fit in.

 

All of a sudden there was a rush on these aircraft for solo cross countries. I remember having to actually do detailed planning, using charts, dead-reckoning, pilotage. If I didn't, I didn't get to my destination. Now with the Garmin 430, it is easy enough to simply plug the airport identifier into the unit, and magically the arrow would point you straight towards the airport, complete with frequencies and other information.

 

Instrument training was the same. The moving map in front always gives the student an orientation. In some cases trying to teach a hold entry when the hold is depicted on the map seemed pointless.

 

My concern at the time was whether this would lead to poorer 'navigation' skills.

 

Applying the same arguement to the 'govenor' idea. RPM is everything. No RPM, no flight. So then isn't the skill of monitoring RPM (by watching and listening) very important.

 

On the other hand, technology does move on, and so does the skill set required. So a perfectly good argument is "this is the way things are going". In the future, all aircraft will most likely have 'moving map gps', fuel injection (no carbs) and governors. How long in the future though?

 

NDBs are being phased out. They are a relic of the past. We have moved on to RNAV. However, the skills (being able to track a needle) required to use an NDB are the fundimental skills to effective instrument navigation, and still pertinent today. Understand NDBs and you firmly understand most other navaids.

 

In terms of training then, I think one which trains tasks your raw basic skills and abilities is the better one.

 

Joker

 

(A little scared to post in fear of assuming anything!)

[Goldy]

(A little scared to post in fear of assuming anything!)

 

 

Joker- you may be right, I was thinking of safety first, then ease of flying, and then how forgiving it was in an emergency..a carb'd, under powered, low energy rotor go cart with a NDB/AM radio beacon receiver just didnt cut it.

 

Yes, the 430 is nice...if you keep your eyes outside and not glued on the thing..

[Superman]

Clark- I want just one stick of what you have been smoking.

 

Goldy.

 

Ya, we grow the good stuff out here in the boonies. No. 10 may been asking a little much, but other than that it should make an excellent trainer.

 

Ahhhh, I see my mistake now, you're right, I better lay off that stuff for a while, or learn to count past 7 hugh

 

 

All of a sudden there was a rush on these aircraft for solo cross countries. I remember having to actually do detailed planning, using charts, dead-reckoning, pilotage. If I didn't, I didn't get to my destination. Now with the Garmin 430, it is easy enough to simply plug the airport identifier into the unit, and magically the arrow would point you straight towards the airport, complete with frequencies and other information.

 

Joker,

 

I tend to agree with you on this. I also learned to fly instruments the "old fashioned way" NDB's, VOR's, steam gauges. LORAN was a big thing then. Now with the GPS, its a whole new ball game. I don't know how the big schools are training their students in the use of the GPS, but I hope that they are still teaching the basics of flight planning, navigation and pilotage. I am currently working on my CFII airplane, My instructor is a college student in a flight program at Indiana State. To my surprise, he isn't GPS dependent, so at least here in Indiana they are still teaching the basics of IFR flying. The map page is off during most of our training.

 

Glass cockpits, most if not all new single engine fixed wing aircraft now have glass panels, I'm sure that the helicopter manufactures won't be far behind.

 

 

My concern at the time was whether this would lead to poorer 'navigation' skills.

 

Yes, I think it already has. The old 172 trainer on the field here had a 430 in it and they flew it to death. The owner removed the 430, and you would have thought he removed the wings. No one would fly it.

A couple weeks ago, I had a GPS fail, wouldn't receive any satellites (broken coax) Had the PAXs loaded, and taxing out, What the $!#%^%. Started digging thru the flight bag, paper charts, oh ya, the hand held GPS, now how do I work this again? What a cluster, but I managed to somehow remember how to fly VOR's and operate in the IFR environment without a GPS, although it wasn't a pretty site.

 

 

Applying the same arguement to the 'govenor' idea. RPM is everything. No RPM, no flight. So then isn't the skill of monitoring RPM (by watching and listening) very important.

 

Here again I agree. The governor can make you lazy. I started in an old Bell 47, you really had to work the throttle in this thing. Then the Schweizer 300, better, but you still had to work at it. Now the R22, nothing to it, flip the switch and go. When I get back in a 300, I have to think about it for a while before it feels right again, but governor off work in the 22 seams easy. Again I don't know how the big schools are teaching, but I hope that they are teaching the basics. Throttle and RPM control, governor off.

 

Fly Safe

Clark

[Goldy]

1. Turbine powered

2. Purchase price under $200,000.00

3. Insurable (low cost)

4. Operating (rental) cost under $300.00 HR

5. Instrument certified

6. Reliable (easy to maintain)

7. Articulated rotor

8 Useful load of 600 lb. with full fuel

7. Someplace to carry something (bags, cargo etc.)

8. 2.5 hour range

9. 100 kt cruise speed

10. Cute blonde copilot

 

Yep, that should do it.

 

Fly Safe

Clark

 

 

Clark, forget # 1 in a trainer, keep # 10.

[brushfire21]

Boy, I didn't realize my one little comment abotu glas cockpits was going to get everybody fired up. I did say that in addition to the Analog Gauges a Glass Cockpit. Meaning both type of instruments (New state of the art and good old mechanicals for engine, nav etc) if possibly, which could be done.

[Wally]

I'm a pilot, so I'll remark on the ideal training aircraft from an aviators perspective-

1. The A/C should have as few design quirks as possible.

2. It should be stable and forgiving of routine ham-fisted, low skilled operation typical of student pilots.

3. It should allow some operation around the margin of design without that being an emergency.

4. The aircraft should allow 500 lbs in the two pilot positions by design. A significant percentage of the population is in the 300-lb. segment.

 

Injector, carburetter, diesel or turbine isn't significant, as long as it's simple, linear and reliable. I favor pistons because it's easier to teach manual throttle control in one. A strong and intuitive understanding of that function's key to power management- turbines present too many unique challenges to be a useful teaching aid here.

Glass cockpits are the future. If and when there's a standard, mandated interface and performance, they should be incorporated.

The problem with the Garmin 430 is also it's advantage- it's also your VHF com. Aviators MUST be capable of dead reckoning and pilotage with the same level of skill as keeping the aircraft level.

[500pilot]

10. Cute blonde copilot

 

 

 

Fly Safe

Clark

 

 

I'll have one of those. Especially in my Bell 430.

 

 

I remember having to actually do detailed planning, using charts, dead-reckoning, pilotage. If I didn't, I didn't get to my destination. Now with the Garmin 430, it is easy enough to simply plug the airport identifier into the unit, and magically the arrow would point you straight towards the airport, complete with frequencies and other information.

 

 

This is very true. I think many people are getting spoiled with GPS. I have actually had my GPS fail in flight one night coming home on a very rainy and overcast night when temps wouldnt let me go IFR. Even though I know my flying area very well and I was only about 120 miles from my home I always have my FO follow along on a chart as a backup while doing some of the long cross countries. We were on with approach so it was no big deal but its always nice to have the situational awareness that using a chart gives you.

[mrose]

I flew one this month, AK1-3 AeroKopter. When the deisel is in it and the FAA done the issue will be order delays, not which machine.

 

www.ptarmigan-heli.com Flight test update will be in Monday.

 

Kind regards,

 

MROSE