Solo Student Pilots and daytime Special VFR (SVFR)

[lelebebbel]

This is a regulations question for my CFI class.

I need to find out if a student pilot can solo under a daytime SVFR clearance.

Actually, I was fairly sure that he can't, but I can't find out where that rule comes from?

It's not under 61.87 (Solo req. for Student Pilots), or 61.89 (Student Pilot Limitations), and it's not under 91.157 (SVFR weather).

I've googled it, and found some quizzes (on the aopa page and others) that say "no SVFR for students", but don't back it up with the reg #.

 

Can anybody point me to the right page in the FARs? Or am I wrong here and a student can actually solo under SVFR?

Edited November 30, 2007 by lelebebbel

[Goldy]

This is a regulations question for my CFI class.

I need to find out if a student pilot can solo under a daytime SVFR clearance.

Actually, I was fairly sure that he can't, but I can't find out where that rule comes from?

It's not under 61.87 (Solo req. for Student Pilots), or 61.89 (Student Pilot Limitations), and it's not under 91.157 (SVFR weather).

I've googled it, and found some quizzes (on the aopa page and others) that say "no SVFR for students", but don't back it up with the reg #.

 

Can anybody point me to the right page in the FARs? Or am I wrong here and a student can actually solo under SVFR?

 

OK, going out on a limb here..I can't recall seeing any specific exception except some airports where the charts indicate "NO SVFR". Specific flight school insurance probably says no, but I cant think of anything in the reg's that specifically prevent it. Great question, now I'll have to go open a book.

 

91.157 only deals with SVFR for fixed wings and just exempts helicopters from those restrictions. It would have to be in Part 61 if it exists.

 

What about the flight restrictions that you place on the student pilot cert when you certify him for solo flight? I seem to recall back to a few decades ago that it said "day VFR conditions, winds not to exceed 15 knots" or something like that on the endorsement. But I dont know of a specific section it was related to ...

 

Goldy

Edited November 30, 2007 by Goldy

[aclark79]

Sec. 61.89 - General limitations.

 

(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:

 

(6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night;

 

SVFR for helicopters = anything less than the VFR weather minimums. IE, less than 3 sm in class D. Ergo, no student pilot can act as PIC (solo) in conditions that would be SVFR in any controlled airspace.

[lelebebbel]

Sec. 61.89 - General limitations.

 

(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:

 

(6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night;

 

SVFR for helicopters = anything less than the VFR weather minimums. IE, less than 3 sm in class D. Ergo, no student pilot can act as PIC (solo) in conditions that would be SVFR in any controlled airspace.

 

That doesn't solve the problem - What about when it's 10SM vis but ceiling 900ft? Less than VFR but still enough to satisfy the requirements of 61.89

 

 

@Goldy: The limitations you put on a students endorsement are in addition to what the FARs say, right? Obviously you wouldn't endorse a student pilot to fly with a 600ft ceiling - but the question is, if you didn't add that limitation, could he legally get an SVFR clearance and go flying?

Edited November 30, 2007 by lelebebbel

[aclark79]

That doesn't solve the problem - What about when it's 10SM vis but ceiling 900ft? Less than VFR but still enough to satisfy the requirements of 61.89

@Goldy: The limitations you put on a students endorsement are in addition to what the FARs say, right? Obviously you wouldn't endorse a student pilot to fly with a 600ft ceiling - but the question is, if you didn't add that limitation, could he legally get an SVFR clearance and go flying?

 

Guess I should have been more specific on 61.89, only limits to 3 sm, not ceiling, however 61. 93, paragraph d.

 

Sec. 61.93 - Solo cross-country flight requirements.

 

(d) Limitations on authorized instructors to permit solo cross-country flights. An authorized instructor may not permit a student pilot to conduct a solo cross-country flight unless that instructor has:

 

(2) Reviewed the current and forecast weather conditions and has determined that the flight can be completed under VFR;

 

 

 

The endorsment can not be given if flight conditions are SVFR, however if the flight detiorates to SVFR in flight, when it ws VFR, its not as if the student becomes a felon in flight. If the student pilot wants to return to the field and its SVFR due to ceilings, not vis, then in a helicopter they could do it per the FAR.

 

The only limit to the student pilot is in the limitations section of the student pilot subpart, 61.89. 3 sm day, 5 sm night. No celieng limits. It never says no SVFR, and if they don't say it, then you can't read into it. Now hopefully the instructor put some limits, but if not... have at it. All the other limits are on the instructor giving the authorization, so if you need an endorsement for a stage of flight, check the limits on the instructor, there are some 'backdoor' limits there that although they are not on the pilot themselves, will prevent the flight from happening.

 

I challenge anyone to find an FAR that actually says, no student pilot SVFR.

[lelebebbel]

The only limit to the student pilot is in the limitations section of the student pilot subpart, 61.89. 3 sm day, 5 sm night. No celieng limits. It never says no SVFR, and if they don't say it, then you can't read into it. Now hopefully the instructor put some limits, but if not... have at it. All the other limits are on the instructor giving the authorization, so if you need an endorsement for a stage of flight, check the limits on the instructor, there are some 'backdoor' limits there that although they are not on the pilot themselves, will prevent the flight from happening.

 

I challenge anyone to find an FAR that actually says, no student pilot SVFR.

 

Thanks a lot! So this really was a myth. I didn't come up with it myself though - it's from the AOPA article on SVFR safety:

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/cfi_tools/p...fm?article=5150 (5th block)

 

Goes to show (again) that you can't trust anything but the book!

[spw1177]

OK, going out on a limb here..I can't recall seeing any specific exception except some airports where the charts indicate "NO SVFR".

 

Goldy

 

Just as a note the "NO SVFR" desgination at some airports doesn't apply to helicopters. It only prevents the airplanes from flying special VFR in that airspace. I don't remember the FAR section, but it is in Helicopter Instrument Procedures chapters of the FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook.