jsmith13 Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 As far as being an instructor in a Robinson R 22, what is the weight limit of its intructor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 240lbs isn't it? I leave it to someone else to explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AR_Clint Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 240 lbs is the max you can have in one seat, but your student's going to have to be pretty dang skinny. If I remember right 4oo lbs is about max between the 2 people. If you want to top off the tanks you can't add up to more than about 340 lbs. I know that here at SSH the company policy is 210lbs for students in the R-22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockedcj7 Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 As far as being an instructor in a Robinson R 22, what is the weight limit of its intructor? Officially, the max seat-weight is 240 including the baggage compartment. I trained with a 200 lb instructor and I weighed about 215. We could barely take off with 1/2 and 1/4 fuel in the hottest months of the summer. We could get in a 1 hr lesson if we were lucky. Once the weather cooled off, we could run with 1/2 and 1/2. The helicopter we were in was a few hundred hours from TBO but it was always something of a dog. The brand-new R22BII we flew at Robinson was nice. We were hovering at 21" MP with me and a 200lb instructor! Sooooo, it really depends on the individual ship, local conditions (sea level vs high altitude) and company policy. I have heard that Boatpix likes really light pilots so that they can fly longer missions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clancy Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 wasn't that outside the weight and ballance limits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockedcj7 Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 wasn't that outside the weight and ballance limits? To the best of my knowledge and belief, we were inside the weight and balance and CG limits at all times. I don't have access to the weight and balance data for those particular aircraft at the moment or I would double-check. I was a student at the time and the CFI and lead pilot conferred on the numbers and agreed that we were good to go. The factory instructor at Robinson had my weight, was the PIC and said that we were within limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 I always wonder how many people are taking off in R22s above MTOW, or always pulling 'just over the redline'. I don't want to start another debate on the 'redline issue', but I am certain that many people are over a lot of the time. I wonder how many people have heard the following excuses from their instructors: "Don't worry, we'll burn it off pretty quickly!" "This aircraft has always had a high manifold pressure!" "You're allowed to go over the red line anyway!" Why do I think this? Because I have flown with students who have 'overfilled' the aircraft and when I cancel the flight, they say, "Well, at my last school we would always go with this!" Because I can do the sums and know what 30 degrees does for the density altitude! Hey even Robinson must suspect that people are pulling too much as they issued SN-37. To me those safety notices are a history of the R22 accidents and incidents. I have washed the figures through my WB program (215 and 200 +1 hour's worth of fuel (9 gal / hour)) and find that the numbers are very close to limits...and that's on a standard day! With the R22 fuel gauges, which we all know are useless, that's not much margin for error / atc delay / weather diversion etc...etc.. Just my 2 cents. Joker P.S. How many people actually 'dip' the fuel in the R22 or just rely on the gauge / the meter on the fuel bowser?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justfly Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 I always wonder how many people are taking off in R22s above MTOW, or always pulling 'just over the redline'.... ...Hey even Robinson must suspect that people are pulling too much as they issued SN-37. To me those safety notices are a history of the R22 accidents and incidents...Good points joker! ...and people may want to read the Safety Alerts too ... (links are PDF files) Exceeding Power Limits Can Be Fatal Exceeding Manifold Pressure Limits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Coaster Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 How many people actually 'dip' the fuel in the R22 or just rely on the gauge / the meter on the fuel bowser?? Every time. It's the only way to know exactly what you have. Helps to keep an eye on the accuracy of the guages too. Wish you could dip the tanks on all helicopters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helibear Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 I always wonder how many people are taking off in R22s above MTOW, or always pulling 'just over the redline'. I don't want to start another debate on the 'redline issue', but I am certain that many people are over a lot of the time. I wonder how many people have heard the following excuses from their instructors: "Don't worry, we'll burn it off pretty quickly!" "This aircraft has always had a high manifold pressure!" "You're allowed to go over the red line anyway!" Why do I think this? Because I have flown with students who have 'overfilled' the aircraft and when I cancel the flight, they say, "Well, at my last school we would always go with this!" Because I can do the sums and know what 30 degrees does for the density altitude! Hey even Robinson must suspect that people are pulling too much as they issued SN-37. To me those safety notices are a history of the R22 accidents and incidents. I have washed the figures through my WB program (215 and 200 +1 hour's worth of fuel (9 gal / hour)) and find that the numbers are very close to limits...and that's on a standard day! With the R22 fuel gauges, which we all know are useless, that's not much margin for error / atc delay / weather diversion etc...etc.. Just my 2 cents. Joker P.S. How many people actually 'dip' the fuel in the R22 or just rely on the gauge / the meter on the fuel bowser?? Joker, Never heard one of this excuses (and never took of with more than MGW) and dip the fuel before every flight. My school is very restrictiv and so are the instructors. And I agree totally with this. Rainer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67november Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Rainer there's no doubt of your training centers ethics, I'm inclind to agree with Joker in regards to students coming from other locals with what he stated. hence part of the reason I started the C of G thread, why would anybody put themselves at risk, student or not. when climbing into an a/c you should alway be prepared for every known equation.(sp) every (student) pilot should have the numbers worked out BEFORE walking out onto the tarmack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamSTL Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 I hope I never become so jaded as to stop dipping the tanks... Anyone else read the NTSB report on the bell that came down a few hundred feet down the runway with empty tanks? How do you explain that to a current or future employer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 CJ- I'm surprised no one ever did a weight and balance on this. Being a really big guy ( 6'5" and 240lb), I know the weight limitations to a tee....basically for me, its solo trips! Anyway, with you at 215 and the CFI at 200, you would have to have less than 6 gal of fuel to stay within limits. At half tanks, ( bout 15 gal) you are at the total weight limit of 1370, but over the forward limit...so auto's are a bit more difficult. This assumes a standard R22 weight of 876 pounds and both door OFF!...some models go up to 890 or so with a lot of options..With all the options and doors on, you couldnt start the engine legally ! We all know the R22 can lift more than the 1370 rated pounds, the fact is that doing it adds stresses to critical parts and can cause them to fail prematurely...usually some time later when some poor skinny guy is flying it. Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heli_Girl Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Hopefully when i make it up to CFI and start instructing we won't have such an issue with getting that close to the weight limits. Since im only 5'4 and 110lbs, I'll probably end up taking more of the bigger students that won't be able to fly with a heavier instructor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Hopefully when i make it up to CFI and start instructing we won't have such an issue with getting that close to the weight limits. Heli_Girl, You are right. You will proabably be given all the bigguns'! Lucky them! Of course, you will have concerns at the other end of the scale, particularly when solo. Even if your WB calculation is inside the envelope, picking up, setting down and doing autos with a very far aft CG can be a bit un-nerving at first. Watch for that on your first solo X-C (if you haven't done it already!) I once tried an throttle chop whilst solo and as light as I could be (and I'm 180lbs). I was shocked how long it took for the RPM to recover. Joker P.S. For anyone who hasn't got one already, I have posted my WB calculator (MS Excel) for 300CB, R22, R44 and 206 at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jamin_hard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heli_Girl Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Hey Joker Yea, i've been told i may have some problems flying solo with being so light, and that i may have to add some weights lol. I still have a long time to go before then though, i still can't get funding for my training I've been trying for a few years now, and still no luck. I only have about 5 hours of flight time, which was all spread out, and i havnt flown since last october. But eventually, when i get the moneys I will keep that in mind when it comes about time for my solo I cant wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaqueroaero Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Wasn't the 240 lb weight limit to do with crash worthiness of the seat? If I remember right from my safety course many years ago. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong. I remember the biggest problem I had flying with a 230 lb photographer was that he 'overflowed' from the seat and made it very hard to get a good grip on the collective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Wasn't the 240 lb weight limit to do with crash worthiness of the seat? If I remember right from my safety course many years ago. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong. I remember the biggest problem I had flying with a 230 lb photographer was that he 'overflowed' from the seat and made it very hard to get a good grip on the collective. Hey I said I was a big guy..not a big fat guy ! Yes, the 240 lb limit is due to the seat safety rating. However, you're still in violation if you're 241...try getting insurance to pay for anything when they prove you were outside the limits of the aircraft. By the way, with the doors on and full tanks of fuel, you could weigh about 265 and be with CG limits of the R22...but you're still over the seat limit. My problem isnt moving the collective...its keeping my head from bumping into the ceiling ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockedcj7 Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 CJ- I'm surprised no one ever did a weight and balance on this. Being a really big guy ( 6'5" and 240lb), I know the weight limitations to a tee....basically for me, its solo trips! Anyway, with you at 215 and the CFI at 200, you would have to have less than 6 gal of fuel to stay within limits. At half tanks, ( bout 15 gal) you are at the total weight limit of 1370, but over the forward limit...so auto's are a bit more difficult. This assumes a standard R22 weight of 876 pounds and both door OFF!...some models go up to 890 or so with a lot of options..With all the options and doors on, you couldnt start the engine legally ! We all know the R22 can lift more than the 1370 rated pounds, the fact is that doing it adds stresses to critical parts and can cause them to fail prematurely...usually some time later when some poor skinny guy is flying it. Goldy Hey I said I was a big guy..not a big fat guy ! Yes, the 240 lb limit is due to the seat safety rating. However, you're still in violation if you're 241...try getting insurance to pay for anything when they prove you were outside the limits of the aircraft. By the way, with the doors on and full tanks of fuel, you could weigh about 265 and be with CG limits of the R22...but you're still over the seat limit. My problem isnt moving the collective...its keeping my head from bumping into the ceiling ! First you say that we could only have 6 gal of fuel with our weights to be within CG and we would be forward of the forward CG limit with half-and-half. Now you're saying that we could each weigh 265 with full fuel and we would be with(in) CG limits. Which is it? I haven't posted back to this thread because I was hoping it would die a quiet death but it doesn't seem to want to. 67November, let us know how it works after you start training. How is a zero-time student supposed to even know to do a W&B? Did your CFI do one before your discovery flight or did (s)he just look you over, ask (or guess) your weight, do the W&B in his/her head, brief the SFAR 73 requirements and go flying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67november Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 67November, let us know how it works after you start training. How is a zero-time student supposed to even know to do a W&B? Did your CFI do one before your discovery flight or did (s)he just look you over, ask (or guess) your weight, do the W&B in his/her head, brief the SFAR 73 requirements and go flying? As an A & P we also need to know how the CofG effects the craft so we are also trained to understand the W&B issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaqueroaero Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Hey I said I was a big guy..not a big fat guy ! Yes, the 240 lb limit is due to the seat safety rating. However, you're still in violation if you're 241...try getting insurance to pay for anything when they prove you were outside the limits of the aircraft. By the way, with the doors on and full tanks of fuel, you could weigh about 265 and be with CG limits of the R22...but you're still over the seat limit. My problem isnt moving the collective...its keeping my head from bumping into the ceiling ! Didn't mean to imply that you were weight challenged!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockedcj7 Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 As an A & P we also need to know how the CofG effects the craft so we are also trained to understand the W&B issues. You're obviously not a typical student. Because you have an A&P, you probably know more about how the aircraft works than most pilots. You'll also be in a better postion to understand what's going on when you make a control input. My comment was more generally related to a zero time student with no knowledge of aircraft. What I intended to say to you was: We all know what we are supposed to do but I see many times when it doesn't get done. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that it happens. That's why I started another thread on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67november Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 My comment was more generally related to a zero time student with no knowledge of aircraft.What I intended to say to you was: We all know what we are supposed to do but I see many times when it doesn't get done. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that it happens. That's why I started another thread on the subject. and your question on the new thread is a good one, as we all need to be reminded from time to time that things can/will be missed, we just want to be sure it's kept to a minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 First you say that we could only have 6 gal of fuel with our weights to be within CG and we would be forward of the forward CG limit with half-and-half. Now you're saying that we could each weigh 265 with full fuel and we would be with(in) CG limits. Which is it? I haven't posted back to this thread because I was hoping it would die a quiet death but it doesn't seem to want to. 67November, let us know how it works after you start training. How is a zero-time student supposed to even know to do a W&B? Did your CFI do one before your discovery flight or did (s)he just look you over, ask (or guess) your weight, do the W&B in his/her head, brief the SFAR 73 requirements and go flying? CJ- Just to be clear...you could go up solo...and weigh about 265 with full fuel and be within CG....but with two pilots, with the weights listed, 6 gallons or so of fuel is all you get.. as far as W&B...For the students out there...excel spreadsheets are the best thing going. There are several available for different aircraft..it won't help you pass any tests, but it's what a lot of pilots use. If you dont have one, throw out an email address to GOLDYSTR@aol.com and I will reply with an R22 and a R44 W&B sheet. CJ-Don't be embarassed about a thread that gets a lot of attention, as you know, its a very important subject! If your comments get people thinking the next time they want to lift off over-loaded, then you may just help avert a tragedy. Good Flying !Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67november Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 as far as W&B...For the students out there...excel spreadsheets are the best thing going. There are several available for different aircraft..it won't help you pass any tests, but it's what a lot of pilots use. CJ-Don't be embarassed about a thread that gets a lot of attention, as you know, its a very important subject! If your comments get people thinking the next time they want to lift off over-loaded, then you may just help avert a tragedy.Goldy students first be sure you know how to do w&b the long way first, before you revert to the elecronic version. CJ, keep your ?'s coming as goldy said it keeps us thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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